Episode Discussion Beneath You- The First, Spike’s insanity, and Christian symbolism in the Buffyverse

So, this might seen as if it's coming out of left field, but it's always bothered me and I've always wondered about it. So, I figured I'd bring it up and see what you all think.

In the church scene in "˜Beneath You' when Spike says, "it's what you wanted, right?" he looks upwards, clearly suggesting that he is referring to someone other than Buffy. This always seemed odd to me, and I've always wondered whom he was referring too.

So, my question is"¦who is Spike referring too? The way I see it, there are three possible options, 1.) God 2.) The PTB or 3.) an imaginary person/vision/The First. The comment makes sense that it should be for Buffy. After all, he got his soul for her and thought it was what she required of him to have her love...but he's obviously not talking to her.

The first option seems very unlikely to me. Even a soulful Spike has never shown himself to be religious. Despite the fact that he's crazy in this scene, why would Spike be addressing God or a higher power? Why would he think that God would want him to get a soul? Even putting aside the atheistic overall nature of the "˜verse, it just doesn't make sense.

The second option seems unlikely as well. Does Spike even know of the existence of the PTB at this point?

The third option is where I'm curious to see what you all think. Who do you think Spike is talking too? Do you think its just Spike being "crazy" and talking to another one of his imagined hallucinations the First was causing him to have? If so, who? Dru? His mother? Nikki Wood? Who would have wanted him to return to his soulful self?

If Spike was indeed talking to himself with that line, this could imply that it was the First who was making him crazy to begin with, and not the soul, which is the assumed cause of his temporary madness, right? It just occurred to me that even though Spike went insane after his soul was given back to him, this was also around the same time when the First started messing with his head. Coincidence?

So...If the First hadn't decided to start messing with Spike, how do you think Spike would have adjusted to getting his soul back? Basically, what I'm asking is do you think it was Spike's soul that made him crazy, or was it The First's fault entirely?

In the same scene I referred above, Spike also says:

And "“ and now, everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did, everyone I "“ and him"¦and it, the other.

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It's clear that "everybody" are the visions/people in his head that The First was causing him to see, yet who Spike refers too as "him" is unclear. Is "him" The First? God? His soul"¦personified? Huh?

We see Spike in obvious pain when he is en-souled in "Grave" then we don't see him again until he shows up insane in the Sunnydale High basement. What happened between that time period? What was Spike doing? Do you think the First had already started to mess with him before he even got back to Sunnydale from wherever he was in Africa? More importantly, do you think The First chose Spike to mess with because he had a soul? Remember, The First messed with Angel back in "Amends" and Angel had a soul then, too. Coincidence? I don't think so. The First somehow knew/learned that Spike had gotten a soul and that he was headed back to Buffy "“ and used it his advantage, to infiltrate her group and learn more about them. So, I guess you could say that Spike is responsible for bringing The First to Buffy and her friends.

What do you guys think? I know I'm all over the place, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on any or all of this. ☺

Other thoughts on this scene:

Do we get a bit of foreshadowing when Spike says they all just tell him they want him to "go to hell"? After all, the Reaper does try to take him down to after he is brought back in Angel.

It's pretty much impossible to ignore the heavy religious symbolism in this scene. There is evidence that Spike could be referring to God in this scene, considering the heavy religious references. Here are the illusions I can see:
- Spike is covered in scratches, like Christ was from the thorns and being beaten as he was forced to carry his won cross up the hill.
- The scene itself takes place in a church (notably empty, which says something about the town's faith, that's for sure)
- Spike had to go on a search for his soul, undergo the demon trails, and endure much pain - much like a pilgrimage or religious journey to enlightenment.
- The most obvious illusion is towards the end when Spike says

And she shall look on him with forgiveness. And everybody will forgive and love. And he will be loved. So everything's ok, right? Can we rest now? Buffy? Can we rest?"

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He then draps himself on the cross and lets himself burn "“ obviously symbolic of Christ's execution/self-sacrifice on the cross so that man could be forgiven for their sins. Spike is "crucifying" himself on the cross in an effort to be foriven. I think that Spike is asking for Buffy's forgiveness in this scene, for what he did to her in "Seeing Red."

Thoughts?

Man, I hope this crazy thread made some sort of sense"¦

I had always assumed he was speaking to God, but only because he was in a church at the time -- the religious atmosphere was pretty blatant. I am probably going to stick to that answer, though, and say that it plays into the fact that Spike flickers in and out of hell during Angel. Maybe like an everlasting struggle between Spike and his final resting place, whether he is enough of a "champion" to be a part of heaven and be with God (be him religious or not.)

I always thought it might have been The First in Spike-form. As in, he's feeling so much pain and guilt after getting his soul...But he knows he's the one who went to get the soul, he's the one who wanted the soul, at the same time I could be wrong, he could be talking to God, but I'm not 100% sure Spike, as a vampire, would have had any religious beliefs. And as for the PTB, they seemed to come up more in Angel than in Buffy, so I'm not sure he'd have known about 'em. So, I'm leaning more towards the First, personally.

It seems like it must be God, in his head anyway. It doesn't make sense to me that he'd be talking to Buffy, since she never made any comment that I can think of to make him think she wanted him to have a soul. It seemed like that was a decision he came to on his own. I've always thought it was the First making him nuts, using the fact that he had a soul to do it. If he didn't have a soul, it might not have worked (hard to say, since Spike seems different from other soulless vamps). And I think if he'd gotten his soul and the First hadn't been around, his adjustment would have been a lot easier. He's extremely adaptable. Angel says something about this-how he spent all those years coping with getting his soul and Spike spent 3 weeks in a basement. And that was WITH the First tormenting him the whole time. Without all that torment, I think he'd have been a lot less crazy. His reaction to Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me bears this out IMO-he's not sorry for killing the Slayer; he was a vampire, she was a slayer, and she knew the game.

I always thought the references to him and such in this scene were Spike talking to God. Even though it would seem strange, he is kinda crazy and remorseful, wanting forgiveness and all, so it makes sense in a way.

I think it's a mixture of The First and Spike getting his soul back that makes him crazy. I feel like the soul on its own would still have obviously affected him, but having The First constantly in his head reminding him of what he'd done just emphasised his pain.

I think that Spike getting his soul back would have made him kinda crazy on its own - guilt and remorse and thinking of hundreds and thousands of people you'd murdered would do that to you (and, see Angel's behaviour after he got his soul back). Then I think that First exploited that and gave him an extra dash of crazy and appeared to him as all kinds of people giving the mental anguish a three-dimentional element.

And yes, I feel that Spike is refering to God when he looks up and says "it’s what You wanted, right?”. The scene takes place in a church, he drapes himself over a cross to show his contrition, I think we're supposed to take the Christian symbolism on board here. In the Christian faith God doesn't want his children to be sinners, he wants them to come back to his side regardless of what they've done in the past. Forgiveness is a given. So of course God would want him to get his soul back and turn away from evil. Spike would observe this because, he is afterall, a product of Victorian times where a belief in God was pretty much universal.

Anya Jenkins-Harris said:

I always thought it might have been The First in Spike-form. As in, he's feeling so much pain and guilt after getting his soul...But he knows he's the one who went to get the soul, he's the one who wanted the soul, at the same time I could be wrong, he could be talking to God, but I'm not 100% sure Spike, as a vampire, would have had any religious beliefs. And as for the PTB, they seemed to come up more in Angel than in Buffy, so I'm not sure he'd have known about 'em. So, I'm leaning more towards the First, personally.

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Interesting theory. You think that The First was assuming the form of Spike in that scene? Like he did with The Mayor and Nikki Wood? That can't work, though, because The First in incorporeal and cannot touch anything. Spike in these scene clearly touches the cross when he lays himself on it.

Huh. So it seems like all of you agree that he was referring to God. I find this really interesting. The existance of God has never been confirmed in the Buffyverse, and no one in the show is particularily religious. I mean, Buffy thinks she might have been in Heaven, but she's not sure. It just seems odd to me that Spike would think that God wanted him to get a soul. Odd that he would care.

This could very well be my favorite scene in the series. I'm a Jewish Atheist, but even so, I found the Christian imagery to be beautiful and effective.

When he asked "It's what you wanted, right?" I'd always assumed he was talking to Buffy and the looking places was sort of like him looking for her. I know that when I talk, I kind of see the people I'm talking to in my head sometimes, so it seemed plausible (especially given his *insane* state) that he was looking around in his head to her. If that's not the case, I'd say he was talking to himself. The "you" being him before he had a soul. He was clearly overcome with guilt at what he had done, so it seems natural that what he wanted was to be the man who wouldn't do that the Buffy. He just hadn't realized there were other aspects to soulness... or, hadn't thought too hard about them, at any rate.

I always believed that it was the First making him crazy. A combo, really, but certainly not the soul on its own. Spike really didn't know what having a soul would be like, so he gets one and voila! People of his past come back to haunt him. Dru, a representation of all that he was and wanted when he was evil and the Big Bads of the past... people like him. And plenty of victims, too, I'm sure. *He* blamed it on the soul because he didn't really know what else it could have been. The soul brought him all these feelings and then suddenly they were turned physical by the First. Which, I believe, spurred more feelings related to the soul. The more he physically saw of who he was and what he had done, the more the "spark burned." That being said, the crazy-making couldn't have happened without the soul. It was a combo... essentially, the First representing what Spike perceived the soul to mean.

I think when Spike refers to "him," he is again referring to himself presoul. Angel often says that Angelus is always in him and I suspect the same to be true for Spike. *He* is in there, a part of the feeling and problems driving him insane.

As I said earlier, I think the symbolism of the scene is simply beautiful. One doesn't have to be religious to appreciate the beauty of that kind of thing... one of the greatest things I've ever seen is the Final Judgement in the Sistine Chapel, after all. I think Spike is looking so desperately for forgiveness and even if Joss planned to have it end with the cross representing all this stuff, I don't think Spike had a clear idea what was going on. He was tired and sad and lonely and probably embarrassed ("I'm this badass vamp and I went to the end of the Earth to get a freakin soul for this girl"). So he hung on the cross and it burned, but he was too tired to give up and too hard on himself to think he didn't deserve the pain at that moment.

That's my read on the scene, anyway.

As someone who went to Catholic School for seven years, I have a bit of experience with Christian symbolism.

Now in Spikes case, let's look at the facts. He traveled around Europe for... Gods know how long, slaughtering and torturing people (remember, he got the nickname "Spike" because he liked to torture his victims using a railroad spike). So needless to say he has had a bloody past, that of an already unstable psychopathic serial killer. Now, it appears as though when a vampire "attains" his soul it causes him a great deal of misery and grief. Look at Angel, he was always very broody, and in some cases, disturbed, by having a concise. So we already have a psychologically unstable vampire who recently obtained a soul , and is being tormented by the personification of evil, that can turn into anyone who is dead. It certainly seems to be a combination of things.

Now when he looks up and asks if this is what you wanted, one would assume he's talking to God. However, Catholics, at least, will sometimes look up when talking to Mary. Now Mary is often prayed to for mercy and forgiveness, as in the hail Mary "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen". However, this could also be Spike, in his "crazy" state showing that he holds Buffy, in almost divine regard, and at the same time, asking for her forgiveness. This also answers the forgiveness question.

This is my opinion.

Joan the Vampire Slayer said:

Huh. So it seems like all of you agree that he was referring to God. I find this really interesting. The existance of God has never been confirmed in the Buffyverse, and no one in the show is particularily religious. I mean, Buffy thinks she might have been in Heaven, but she's not sure. It just seems odd to me that Spike would think that God wanted him to get a soul. Odd that he would care.

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I wonder if this old Joss quote on the snow in Amends offers some clues...

"The snow [in Amends] was good... was it God? Well, I'm an atheist, but it's hard to ignore the idea of a "Christmas miracle" here... The fact is, the Christian mythos has a powerful fascination to me, and it bleeds into my storytelling. Redemption, hope, purpose, Santa, these all are important to me, whether I believe in an afterlife or some universal structure or not. I certainly don't mind a strictly Christian interpretation being placed on this ep by those who believe that -- I just hope it's not limited to that" (Joss Whedon, Dec 15 22:17 1998).

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This was not the first Buffy scene of a vampire in a church.

Remember Boone the vampire barricaded himself in a church with his toadies in Who Are You (written by Joss). Remember this...

Boone: It's hard to believe. I've been avoiding this place for so
many years, and it's nothing. It's nice! (turns to face the
frightened parishioners) It's got the pretty windows, the pillars . .
. lots of folks to eat. (a few gasps from the folks) Where's the thing
I was so afraid of? You know, the Lord? He was supposed to be here.
He gave us this address. (sighs) Well, we'll just have to start
killing off His people. (more gasps) See if He shows up.

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So maybe we shouldn't be asking ourselves how religious Joss, or Douglas Petrie (the writer of Beneath You) are. Maybe should be asking ourselves how religious William might have been.

I always thought that Spike was talking to the First, by this time they have control of him, twisting his mind left, right and centre. I always thought that was an excellent bit of acting by JM, he plays it as though you really do think that he is going around the bend!

So maybe we shouldn't be asking ourselves how religious Joss, or Douglas Petrie (the writer of Beneath You) are. Maybe should be asking ourselves how religious William might have been.

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Great point. I hadn't thought about that. It's likely that William was religious. After all, as someone else mentioned, he was raised in the Victorian Period in England, where dominantely, the population was religious.

When he got his soul back, he became William again. For what is William w/o a soul? "William the Bloody." Later, he re-named himself Spike. So, Spike with a soul is William again...right? So it would be fitting that he would regain some religious guilt.

Grey Ghost said:

I always thought that Spike was talking to the First, by this time they have control of him, twisting his mind left, right and centre. I always thought that was an excellent bit of acting by JM, he plays it as though you really do think that he is going around the bend!

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I agree. James is a great actor. Very versitile.

I see all of your points about Spike talking to God, but it just doesn't ring true to me. It fits the place, certainly, but I just don't feel it fits Spike's character. And William may have been religious, but it was never really mentioned at all after that, and I think Joss would have at least hinted that Spike's human counterpart was Christian if he wanted us to believe as such.

I believe he was talking to The First. I had the idea that he was talking to The-First-As-Buffy, and I still like that idea. As I posted in another thread, he's so confused and insane that he might not know the difference between Buffy Buffy and The First Buffy. If The First is there, or if he can somehow feel it around (and I always thought that was more what the eyes-looking-up represented; him knowing that The First was around somewhere), then maybe he thinks in some way that she's Buffy, too.

I also like the theory, though, that Spike is talking to his victims. If the First has really followed Spike around this much, it no doubt took the forms of Spike's victims to torture him. A little boy he killed or an entire family he murdered--those kinds of things. And if so, he may be talking to all of them. It's what they wanted, right? For him to change, for the monster in him to essentially die. I'm not sure which theory I like best, but I'm leaning towards the Buffy one. Because God help him, it's still all about Buffy. (Oooh, a God reference I didn't notice before! It seems more of a phrase, though.)

As for what's making him insane, I think both play their parts. The soul is no doubt killing him; the way he tried to scratch it out proved that. Also, a lot of his words prove that to me, especially: "Angel makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time.... they put the spark in me, and now all it does is burn." The guilt is definitely there, and it's having an effect on him. Still, the first messing with his mind, becoming people who are dead, people he killed--that has to have a lot to do with it, as well. The guilt combined with The First's torment drove him crazy, and it's not surprising.

"Everything I did...everyone I-- and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath--beneath you."

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This quote I take a few different ways. "Everything I did... everyone I--" clearly indicates the people he killed. Either their voices are all echoing in his head because of the guilt, or the First is using them to torture him. My money's on both. In the next part, "And him... and it.. the other..." I think he's either just talking about William the Bloody, or he's talking about both William the Bloody and Spike. I firmly believe now Spike had not two personalities, but three (credit for this theory goes to the thread called William Pratt, William the Bloody, and Spike in the Spike character section). Spike was a different person from his original demon counterpart. So either Spike is talking about just the vampire part of him, and correcting himself from "him" to "it," or he's talking about both the demon and the more feeling part of him that developed in S5 and S6.

This scene gave me more chills than any other in the entirety of either series, and I think that it was because of the religious aspect. When I first saw it, I assumed that Spike was addressing God. Even if God doesn't exist in the Buffyverse, clearly there are still just as many people who hold on to that faith and live by it. In his human life as William, he was most likely a Christian, so even though Spike may have stopped believing in God long ago, he might be reverting to his old beliefs in his current state of instability.

I don't know what it is; the tone of the whole scene and Spike's looking upward just makes me feel that he is talking to God.