Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.37 "Last Gleaming Part 2" - Released 10/7/10 (Dark Horse)

Tranquillity

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Buffy the Vampire Slayer #37: Last Gleaming part 2
Writer: Joss Whedon
Penciller: Georges Jeanty
Cover Artist: Georges Jeanty/Jo Chen


BUFFY2__37.jpg


Spike and Buffy are finally reunited (*sigh*) and lucky him-he's discovered the source of all her problems, and it's not Angel. Now Buffy must revisit the place where love was indiscriminate, the Scoobies were formed, and Hell's mouth was closed for good.

Joss Whedon and Georges Jeanty launch readers into the finale of Buffy Season Eight, promising more adventure, twists, and turns. Bonds are tested, lives altered, and oh!-the fate of humanity hangs in the balance.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/16-...-37-Last-Gleaming-part-2-Georges-Jeanty-cover

And....Discuss!
 
It was a really good issue.

I won't say anything but Spuffy fans will have a little treat to enjoy. They'll be able to read what they want into it (but they always do... (kidding!!)) whereas Bangel fans will see other things. Any way... More on that later.

It was really interesting, nicely written in a way that was not too annoying nor too complicated to explain what the hell is going on with this Seed.
Besides, many good moments : Giles/Faith, Xander/Dawn, Willow... The Spike/Buffy dialogue was excellent.

I can't wait for the next one!!! ... but I will.
 
Moscow Watcher
Moscow Watcher
Yay! Tell me more! Tell me more! :) What's going on with the Seed?
Hate to be bitter on Spuffmas day here but this issue makes me think why I even read the series in the first place. I really didn't like this issue unlike some people for a number of reasons:
-Buffy daydreaming about... SPIKE?!... when she said she wanted to spend her life with Angel last issue?! What the hell is going on here?
-No explanation as to how the Master is back. Are you kiddin' me? We should have an explanation soon, I'm gonna be mad if the Master being back is left unexplained.
-The Power without a name referred to Angel... as father?! Apparently this being either represents or was created in the baby universe. Is anyone else's head spinning?
-Giles using Faith as his "weapon?" I wish they would stop putting a monkey wrench in the Buffy-Giles/Father-Daughter relationship
Actual Good things:
-Spike appears to have moved on and doesn't care who Buffy's thinking about but still cares about her, I like that
-Xander/Dawn's scenes... I hated Dander, now if Dawn were to die I would be crushed, they both really deserve each other, they've earned each other
-Angel seemed very in-character this issue

That's all I got, sorry for the mini rant, but I'm seriously considering to drop Season Eight now, it's lost that hook for me
 
I have to agree that the Bella-izing of Buffy's love triangle is getting a little irritating.

All that sex she just had, and still she can't get her mind off sex?

I guess the end of the world makes her extra horny.

But, I'm happy to say I was right in my distrust of the Talking Dog.

Now I'm wondering what was up with Whistler, since he's obviously on the same side as the Talking Dog/Birdcat thing. Is he going to pull a Skip... seemingly good guy who turns out to be a bad guy?
 
-Buffy daydreaming about... SPIKE?!... when she said she wanted to spend her life with Angel last issue?! What the hell is going on here?

Whatever pulsed through her to get her to the space frakking is still pulsing through her. It's drawing on feelings that are there - which (not surprisingly) is to have a pretty big heap of love for both vamps. Seems clear why Twilight would have sent her some generic surge in her romantic/sexual drive -- that's how babies get made.

-No explanation as to how the Master is back. Are you kiddin' me? We should have an explanation soon, I'm gonna be mad if the Master being back is left unexplained.

Can't help you with this one, though I think it's easy enough to wank that the Master re-materialized from the seed.

-The Power without a name referred to Angel... as father?! Apparently this being either represents or was created in the baby universe. Is anyone else's head spinning?

Not mine. The idea bubbled up enough in the 'verse to start whispering to Angel, goading him into the set of actions that would make the idea real.

-Giles using Faith as his "weapon?" I wish they would stop putting a monkey wrench in the Buffy-Giles/Father-Daughter relationship

Can't help you with that one. I like where Buffy-Giles are at the moment.
 
The Power without a name referred to Angel... as father?! Apparently this being either represents or was created in the baby universe. Is anyone else's head spinning?

Oh no. Is this going to be another Jasmine thing? With the being called Angel and Buffy 'father' and 'mother'? 🙁

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

And yay for Spuffyness, even if it is just a daydream. 😀
 
I have to agree some with Jason...this didn't do much for helping me understand WTH is going on. I still don't really understand Twilight (who/what it is, what it wants, etc). The Master being back doesn't bug me. So, is Willow the betrayer? I am liking Dander, too, never thought I'd say that. But what bothers me is I dont' feel that reading the actual issue gave me anymore insight than the spoilers did!

I do hate that whenever Angel seems to be doing right, something comes along and has to f*ck with him.

And we have Spuffyness, but it's just a fantasy! Kinda disappointing.

I did LOL at this: "Spike's totally touching my butt."

And I liked the frame with Xander, Faith, Giles, and Dawn, with Xander saying "Take us home".

When the Master says "It said you'd come", what is "it"? The prophecy? The seed? Twilight? Something else?
 
I haven't read the issue yet but from the spoilers I read something struck me - Angel was manipulated in a fashion very similar to that of Wesley being led to kidnap Connor in S3 of AtS. Since I think Angel grossly overreacted and unfairly blamed Wesley for all that happened, I feel it serves him right to get what it feels to get played like that. Too bad Joss will probably find a way to exonerate him in the end.
 
I haven't read the issue yet but from the spoilers I read something struck me - Angel was manipulated in a fashion very similar to that of Wesley being led to kidnap Connor in S3 of AtS. Since I think Angel grossly overreacted and unfairly blamed Wesley for all that happened, I feel it serves him right to get what it feels to get played like that. Too bad Joss will probably find a way to exonerate him in the end.

Yes, its very poetic but I do have some hope Joss will have the guts to tell it like it is maybe I'm just optimistic, no offense intended to anyone if anyone's offended.
 
I haven't read the last three issues (36, 37, and the Riley one-shot)

I don't even know if I want to continue, so someone tell me... should I? 😛
 
I really really liked this issue. Right from the opening sentence of Spike saying "So what do you say luv... fancy a bit of exposition?" it had me smiling and yes - it is big on details (but not answers). Spike and Buffy have some great moments and the fantasy panels are just a fraction of them. For me, the best bits are outside the fantasy. I agree with Maggie - I think the Glow is still working its way through Buffy, hense the pre-occupation with the horizontal mambo.

Spike obviously does still care for Buffy - check out his reaction when Buffy starts to explain the influnce of the glow (he says: "can you think of a single creature on any plane of existence that wants to hear this less?" with angryish expression on face)

I'm really going to have to re-read all that information about corks and seeds and universes. There is a lot of words in this one!

After Willow's little jaunt into Aluwyn's place I'm thinking that Angel is going to be the betrayer - Willow says to Buffy "We have to protect the seed. Not just from the demons. No One can get near it" So that 'No One' seems pretty ominous to me...

And I'm completely yay that Buffy pwned the Master so easily but if he was the seeds 'protector' why did she have to kill him - wasn't he doing the very thing they want to do??? Although the Master does seem to be expecting Angel and not Spike so perhaps he was in cahoots with 'Twilight' all along....

And OMG - the lion thing from Buffy's dream in No Future for You makes an appearance and calls him 'Father' and demands that he finish what he started. Am I right in thinking that this is confirmation that Angle has been duped all along and that this creature sort of engineered its own 'birth' by manipulating Angel with promises of 'Destiny'?

Sorry these thoughts are probably not coherent at all. I'm typing off the cuff as i re-read the issue. So many questions! And did I mention how much I enjoyed Spike and Buffy in this issue 😉
 
And OMG - the lion thing from Buffy's dream in No Future for You makes an appearance and calls him 'Father' and demands that he finish what he started. Am I right in thinking that this is confirmation that Angle has been duped all along and that this creature sort of engineered its own 'birth' by manipulating Angel with promises of 'Destiny'?

I haven't read the full issue yet, just extracts, but just on the winged lion that calls Angel Father. I'm wondering if it is any connection to the winged lion Angel has tattooed on his back. It can hardly be a coincidence right? Perhaps we will get a canonical explanation for it now.

As for it being evil, we really don't know yet. It could really go either way I think.
 
white avenger
white avenger
The tattoo on Angel's back depictsa stylized Griffin, which has the body of a lion, combined with thebwings AND HEAD of an eaglel and the tail of a dragon. I don't think that there's any connection between it and Angel and Buffy's "child."
Reaction and Observations to issue 37:

- Buffy and Spike are wearing similar colors: orange and jeans. It's been their thing since the show.

- Buffy has been criticized for calling Sunnydale "Suckydale", seeing as it was her home for seven years and in it are her mother's, Tara's, and Jenny's graves, as well as the bodies of Anya and Amanda and so many people that Buffy knew and loved. Buffy had lamented the loss of Sunnydale in #1, stating that she missed "home", she does have fond memories of Sunnydale, and her life in it, while difficult, was much simpler than it is now. I think calling it Suckydale has more to do with yet another crisis located there than the town itself. Sunnydale is where evil is born and keeps coming back to destroy the world, I can see why Buffy is a bit resentful.

- "Who never got a higher education," I never thought that Angel didn't get a higher education, but it fits with the way his father used to be so disappointed in him.

- I thought it was insensitive of Spike to say that to Buffy, but it shows how upset he is with her. I don't think it's just jealousy, but also disappointment. She's his hero and she made a gigantic mistake.

- Spike takes Xander's old role as Buffy's criticizer, and he does it exactly like Xander: harsh and straightforward. Unlike Willow who's gentler in her criticism of Buffy. It's seems fitting now that someone had to say something to Buffy seeing as Xander can't bring himself to criticize Buffy at all, and Willow saving all her anger for Angel.

- Buffy's fantasies about Spike are so funny, I don't know if it's her or just Twilight's affect. She really wants Spike to still have feelings for her and be jealous and pissed at Angel. It's far more flattering than her dream where Spike and Angel choose each other instead of her.

-Spike seems to be over her, though I don't think so, his cheap shots at her show how jealous and disappointed he is.

- The Xander/Dawn scene oozes of Xander/Anya in The Gift, and I know it's all about a couple being too happy until Joss tears them apart. I should go "Awww" now, but as Xander said, it's too soon. And I'm still waiting for Joss to explore this ship.

- The guy eavesdropping on them is the general who was with Warren and Amy. I wonder what's up with that.

- Spike is rather suspicious, and only Xander noticed that. It seems that with Spike arriving with all the information and a chance to save the world, the other characters are so happy they don't wanna question anything. Xander, being the one who sees, noticed that something is off about Spike's know-it-all attitude. Even Spike's three words didn't answer Xander's question.

- The fact that Xander doesn't get upset and call Spike names after Spike called him "Little Man" shows how much he'd grown past the petty name-calling "“which I greatly miss, I like a little immaturity in Xander- and it started since S7. Xander's character growth moves constantly and gradually forward ever since Seeing Red, and it's something that S8 gets so right.

- I'm not sure Spike can be the betrayer, unless there's a twist. He's hiding something all right, but he seems so devoted to Buffy it's hard to imagine him as the betrayer.

- Willow, on the other hand, learns that the Seed of Wonder is the source of all magic. It's what Twilight wants to get rid of, we knew about that since the beginning. Willow asks about the betrayer, and it seems that it's going to be Willow, which is a call back to: "Is it you?" Buffy asked Willow in Anywhere But Here. "No. I won't betray you."

- I'm a little disappointed in the Giles/Faith scene. I thought they were going to discuss Giles lying to Faith and using her to search for the Queen and kill her. Instead they're talking about Faith's retirement and playing teacher to the other troubled slayers. Their scene is similar to Xander/Dawn, it promises a future after this, where Faith can be happy guiding lost girls.

- "There'll still be girls to help. To guide." "Sure hope so." Hmmm, I can see a reverse in Buffy's spell in Chosen. Perhaps S9 will probably be a return to Buffy and Faith being the only slayers.

- Spike is back to the guy who never leaves Buffy alone. Wherever she goes, he's there. He follows her everywhere offering help, support and company.

- "Take us home." I would've loved it more if it was just Xander and Willow, because Sunnydale is literally their home, they were born and raised there.

- Xander demanding he goes with Willow can be seen as contrast to refusing to accompany Buffy in #4. But in #4 it was stated that the portal that will take them to "Sunnydale" can only take two, and Xander rationally asked Buffy to take someone who's a better fighter, because saving Willow is more important. Here, anyone can go, and Buffy needs all the help she can get, and Xander is going help.

- Aww, I loved Spike's "Did I do that?" Adorable.

- I also enjoy Spike acting tough and ending up in the mercy of the Master until his hero, Buffy, comes and saves his life. There are so many scenes like this in the show, except replace Spike with Xander. "My hero." Aww, all these similarities between Xander and Spike make my heart melt.
 
Reaction and Observations to issue 37:

- Buffy and Spike are wearing similar colors: orange and jeans. It's been their thing since the show.

- Buffy has been criticized for calling Sunnydale "Suckydale", seeing as it was her home for seven years and in it are her mother's, Tara's, and Jenny's graves, as well as the bodies of Anya and Amanda and so many people that Buffy knew and loved. Buffy had lamented the loss of Sunnydale in #1, stating that she missed "home", she does have fond memories of Sunnydale, and her life in it, while difficult, was much simpler than it is now. I think calling it Suckydale has more to do with yet another crisis located there than the town itself. Sunnydale is where evil is born and keeps coming back to destroy the world, I can see why Buffy is a bit resentful.

- "Who never got a higher education," I never thought that Angel didn't get a higher education, but it fits with the way his father used to be so disappointed in him.

- I thought it was insensitive of Spike to say that to Buffy, but it shows how upset he is with her. I don't think it's just jealousy, but also disappointment. She's his hero and she made a gigantic mistake.

- Spike takes Xander's old role as Buffy's criticizer, and he does it exactly like Xander: harsh and straightforward. Unlike Willow who's gentler in her criticism of Buffy. It's seems fitting now that someone had to say something to Buffy seeing as Xander can't bring himself to criticize Buffy at all, and Willow saving all her anger for Angel.

- Buffy's fantasies about Spike are so funny, I don't know if it's her or just Twilight's affect. She really wants Spike to still have feelings for her and be jealous and pissed at Angel. It's far more flattering than her dream And Spike seems to be over her, though I don't think so, his cheap shots at her show how jealous and disappointed he is.

- The Xander/Dawn scene oozes of Xander/Anya in The Gift, and I know it's all about a couple being too happy until Joss tears them apart. I should go "Awww" now, but as Xander said, it's too soon. And I'm still waiting for Joss to explore this ship.

- The guy eavesdropping on them is the general who was with Warren and Amy. I wonder what's up with that.

- Spike is rather suspicious, and only Xander noticed that. It seems that with Spike arriving with all the information and a chance to save the world, the other characters are so happy they don't wanna question anything. Xander, being the one who sees, noticed that something is off about Spike's know-it-all attitude. Even Spike's three words didn't answer Xander's question.

- The fact that Xander doesn't get upset and call Spike names after Spike called him "Little Man" shows how much he'd grown past the petty name-calling "“which I greatly miss, I like a little immaturity in Xander- and it started since S7. Xander's character growth moves constantly and gradually forward ever since Seeing Red, and it's something that S8 gets so right.

- I'm not sure Spike can be the betrayer, unless there's a twist. He's hiding something all right, but he seems so devoted to Buffy it's hard to imagine him as the betrayer.

- Willow, on the other hand, learns that the Seed of Wonder is the source of all magic. It's what Twilight wants to get rid of, we knew about that since the beginning. Willow asks about the betrayer, and it seems that it's going to be Willow, which is a call back to: "Is it you?" Buffy asked Willow in Anywhere But Here. "No. I won't betray you."

- I'm a little disappointed in the Giles/Faith scene. I thought they were going to discuss Giles lying to Faith and using her to search for the Queen and kill her. Instead they're talking about Faith's retirement and playing teacher to the other troubled slayers. Their scene is similar to Xander/Dawn, it promises a future after this, where Faith can be happy guiding lost girls.

- "There'll still be girls to help. To guide." "Sure hope so." Hmmm, I can see a reverse in Buffy's spell in Chosen. Perhaps S9 will probably be a return to Buffy and Faith being the only slayers.

- Spike is back to the guy who never leaves Buffy alone. Wherever she goes, he's there. He follows her everywhere offering help, support and company.

- "Take us home." I would've loved it more if it was just Xander and Willow, because Sunnydale is literally their home, they were born and raised there.

- Xander demanding he goes with Willow can be seen as contrast to refusing to accompany Buffy in #4. But in #4 it was stated that the portal that will take them to "Sunnydale" can only take two, and Xander rationally asked Buffy to take someone who's a better fighter, because saving Willow is more important. Here, anyone can go, and Buffy needs all the help she can get, and Xander is going help.

- Aww, I loved Spike's "Did I do that?" Adorable.

- I also enjoy Spike acting tough and ending up in the mercy of the Master until his hero, Buffy, comes and saves his life. There are so many scenes like this in the show, except replace Spike with Xander. "My hero." Aww, all these similarities between Xander and Spike make my heart melt.

RE: Angel and his lack of higher education. He tells Darla that he has never been anywhere other than Galway. During the his time as a human there would have been too stumbling blocks in him achieving higher education 1) He's Catholic, Catholics were forbidden from attending University in Ireland at the time. 2) The only university in Ireland was Trinity College, in Dublin.

So short of him pretending to be protestant (which many many people did do) and leaving Galway he just couldn't have achieved higher learning. Even if he had wanted to.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
But being a vampire makes night school the shiz!!
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
LOL at Scobro!
And also, his family's position as up and coming merchant-class would have made university attendance most unlikely too.

I haven't read the full issue yet, just extracts, but just on the winged lion that calls Angel Father. I'm wondering if it is any connection to the winged lion Angel has tattooed on his back. It can hardly be a coincidence right? Perhaps we will get a canonical explanation for it now.

As for it being evil, we really don't know yet. It could really go either way I think
.

That would be very cool if there was a connection between his tatoo and the new creature. I tend to think that the creature is not a good thing because it seems to want to end the world and for Angel to finish the task he started and also, in Buffy's dream (in NFFY) it has this big long creepy looking snakes tongue and says "The queen is dead, long live the queen" in a way that freaks Buffy out. But you are right - it could go either way.
 
RE: Angel and his lack of higher education. He tells Darla that he has never been anywhere other than Galway. During the his time as a human there would have been too stumbling blocks in him achieving higher education 1) He's Catholic, Catholics were forbidden from attending University in Ireland at the time. 2) The only university in Ireland was Trinity College, in Dublin.

So short of him pretending to be protestant (which many many people did do) and leaving Galway he just couldn't have achieved higher learning. Even if he had wanted to.


With no dig at Irish culture or history intended, just how common was it to have a "higher education" in Ireland at that time? Two hundred years ago in the United States, there were far more people who were illiterate, or at best educated only to what would now be a 3rd or 4th grade level, than there were graduates of high school, let alone any sort of college. Even doctors and lawyers, who we associate with higher education today were far more likely to have learned their trade from some practicing physician or lawyer who needed an assistant and was more apt to "read medicine" or "read law" with them, the same way that they, themselves, had learned. We've even had Presidents who had very little actual formal education beyond what they learned by themselves or, at best, a close friend or relative who, like the aforementioned doctors and lawyers, learned informally. (Maybe that's why doctors and lawyers refer even today to what they do as a "practice" rather than a "profession") It wasn't until after World War 2 that a high school diploma was common. Was the education system in Ireland and Europe that far advanced of ours?

But back to my original question. Was the standard of education at the time of Angel's childhood and adolescence so high where he lived that his lack of a higher education was that uncommon?
 
And also, his family's position as up and coming merchant-class would have made university attendance most unlikely too.

.

That would be very cool if there was a connection between his tatoo and the new creature. I tend to think that the creature is not a good thing because it seems to want to end the world and for Angel to finish the task he started and also, in Buffy's dream (in NFFY) it has this big long creepy looking snakes tongue and says "The queen is dead, long live the queen" in a way that freaks Buffy out. But you are right - it could go either way.

As far as I can see, Angel's goal as Twilight was to push Buffy to ascension. That's done. ending magic was his cover, not his goal. So that's out too. Ending the world seems to have been a consequence he was not prepared for at all. I suppose, he really didn't need to be aware of what he was doing for him to do it, so the winged lion could very well being insisting he finish what he (unwittingly) started.

I feel there is something else going on though. I believed that the prophecy that Whistler spoke of (the biggest one we've ever seen) and the one Spike is keeper of (the one Giles thought was a myth) were one and the same. In his recent Q/A Jeantry said they were separate. So, something much bigger is going on besides what Buffy and Angel created.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

But back to my original question. Was the standard of education at the time of Angel's childhood and adolescence so high where he lived that his lack of a higher education was that uncommon?

No, in fact it was very common for Catholics to be uneducated, especially in the west of the country (where Angel was). It wasn't just university, it was all education that catholics were banned from. It caused the popping up of "Hedge Schools" which was literally priests and monks teaching kids at the side of the road, in ditches...hiding from authorities. It's actually a wonder that Liam received any formal education at all. His family appear to have been openly Catholic (he was given a Catholic funeral mass).

However, within a hundred years of Liam's death Catholic emancipation had been achieved and by 1880 75-85% of the Irish population could read and write. Which was honestly, unheard of.

And like I said, the only university at the time was Trinity College, a wholly protestant college.
 
So, who is the Queen?

I don't know how you guys remember all the details of past issues. I swear I need to sit down and read through everything again. I'm so glad for BB though, whenever I think I don't understand WTH is going on, you guys explain it all for me! 🙂
 
RE: Angel and his lack of higher education. He tells Darla that he has never been anywhere other than Galway. During the his time as a human there would have been too stumbling blocks in him achieving higher education 1) He's Catholic, Catholics were forbidden from attending University in Ireland at the time. 2) The only university in Ireland was Trinity College, in Dublin.

So short of him pretending to be protestant (which many many people did do) and leaving Galway he just couldn't have achieved higher learning. Even if he had wanted to.

Thank you! Someone in another forum clarified this to me as well. It's such a sad thing to hear. 🙁
 
Kean
Kean
Yeah, Irish history is a rather sorry tale. This is actually one of the brighter moments.
Was it ever firmly established that Angel's family was Catholic?

In any case, Trinity College was barred to Catholics formally until 1793 (and in practice long after that). The universities in England were open only to Anglicans until well into the 19th century, and were certainly not open to the sons of impoverished Irish merchants.

William most likely did have some sort of higher education. While he wasn't actually a member of the upper class, he was allowed to travel in their social circle (for better or worse), and doesn't seem to have had to work for a living. He might not have been to university, but may have had tutors.
 
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