Jasmine’s Influence

[Cohen]

But Angel's not lying to Buffy, he's being mindf***** manipulated by a malicious higher being who is extremely convincing and has intimate knowledge of every wicked act that Liam/Angelus/Angel has ever done. This is Buffy being a hero, trying to save a broken man. This is entirely Jasmine, I mean First Evil who caused this.

This post from @AlphaFoxtrot in the Amends thread got me wondering: who all believes Jasmine influenced Buffy season 3?


For me, I think Jasmine was taking too much credit in Angel Season 4. I think she saw an opening when Cordelia’s visions were getting worse, and began to manipulate things starting with Skip’s appearance to her on her birthday in Angel season 3. But I don’t think she influenced everything back to his returning from Hell.

So who saved Angel from Hell?
The collective Higher Powers, to have him become a Champion of good. At this point, I don’t think Jasmine has gone rogue, though, so I think she was collectively a part of bringing Angel back, but she wasn’t the “cause”.

Who saved Angel on Christmas?
See above.
The First claims credit for bringing Angel back from Hell. But we don’t see the First really wielding any interdimensional powers in either season 3 or season 7. So I don’t think The First has that ability to bring Angel back from Hell. I think in Amends, the First is attempting to manipulate Angel into doing its business, by taking credit for that.

Why was he saved?
When Angel refuses to turn join the First, and instead is willing to sacrifice himself, I think the Higher Powers noted his potential as a Champion, and saved him, putting him on the future path of helping the helpless by teaming with Doyle, who was given the visions to help Angel, which then passed to Cordelia,

Why did Cordelia get the Visions?
When Doyle was willing to sacrifice himself, the Powers allowed his Gift to move to Cordelia, who had also shown the potential to be a Champion through her growth since learning of Buffy’s secret and choosing to Help the Helpless with Angel upon her move to LA.

Who brought Darla back?
Wolfram & Hart. Jasmine did not manipulate this into happening. This was a W&H project gone rogue. The firm wanted to reduce Angel to being evil again, and working for them. It’s clear by the ways the firm interacted with Angel through Epiphany.

Why did Darla get pregnant?
It is a side effect of Angel going through the Trials to save Darla. Because he succeeded through the trials, he was granted a life, even though Darla could not be saved again, due to W&H’s spell to resurrect her in To Shanshu in LA. This life was brought forth when Angel and Darla slept together, fulfilling the contract created when Angel won. This did not happen because of Jasmine’s plan, because it was W&H’s plan to bring Darla back. The Higher Powers were not involved in bringing Darla back, otherwise her return would have been similar to Angel’s in season 3 of Buffy.

Did Jasmine manipulate Angel into doing the Trials?
No, because she didn’t bring Darla back. The show indicated that Darla was brought back with the body she had prior to becoming a vampire. The body was disease-ridden, which took a short length of time to turn into physical symptoms. The ritual performed by W&H did what it was supposed to do. The Senior Partners were probably aware of Darla’s expiration the entire time, and wanted to manipulate Angel to turning Darla, thus inciting his return to Evil. But when this didn’t happen, they abandoned Darla. It was the Host who told Angel about the trials, who knew about them, but was not given to him in a reading. In fact, he wisely predicted there was no helping her. This wasn’t Jasmine’s influence on Lorne.

When did Jasmine go rogue?
When the Powers found that Darla became pregnant with an impossible child, Jasmine created a plan to bring herself into the universe. Jasmine began making the visions worse for Cordelia in the back half of Angel season 2, after Connor was conceived. Jasmine uses Skip to do her bidding in season 3, getting Cordelia to agree to accept a demonic form, which is when Jasmine began pouring her powers into Cordelia. This is why there are healing-type powers exhibited by Cordelia at the end of season 3. Jasmine then manipulated the finale, making Cordelia now agree to become a higher power, phrased as a reward. This was Jasmine tipping her hand, because Cordelia would need to become a higher power to be able to host Jasmine in her fetal form. I believe Cordelia became aware of Jasmine’s plans as she was manipulating things in “The House Always Wins,” so Jasmine then returns Cordelia to the Hyperion, hitching a ride as twin souls, wiping her mind in the process as a side effect of sending her back to earth from the Higher Realm, simultaneously setting up the events in Spin the Bottle to awaken and in control of Cordy’s body and then physically manipulate the rest of the events of season 4.


What are your thoughts on Jasmine’s influence? Do you think she influenced all the Angel-related events since BtVS Season 3? Or do you agree with my points? Disagree?

 

[Btvs fan]

This post from @AlphaFoxtrot in the Amends thread got me wondering: who all believes Jasmine influenced Buffy season 3?


For me, I think Jasmine was taking too much credit in Angel Season 4. I think she saw an opening when Cordelia’s visions were getting worse, and began to manipulate things starting with Skip’s appearance to her on her birthday in Angel season 3. But I don’t think she influenced everything back to his returning from Hell.

So who saved Angel from Hell?
The collective Higher Powers, to have him become a Champion of good. At this point, I don’t think Jasmine has gone rogue, though, so I think she was collectively a part of bringing Angel back, but she wasn’t the “cause”.

Who saved Angel on Christmas?
See above.
The First claims credit for bringing Angel back from Hell. But we don’t see the First really wielding any interdimensional powers in either season 3 or season 7. So I don’t think The First has that ability to bring Angel back from Hell. I think in Amends, the First is attempting to manipulate Angel into doing its business, by taking credit for that.

Why was he saved?
When Angel refuses to turn join the First, and instead is willing to sacrifice himself, I think the Higher Powers noted his potential as a Champion, and saved him, putting him on the future path of helping the helpless by teaming with Doyle, who was given the visions to help Angel, which then passed to Cordelia,

Why did Cordelia get the Visions?
When Doyle was willing to sacrifice himself, the Powers allowed his Gift to move to Cordelia, who had also shown the potential to be a Champion through her growth since learning of Buffy’s secret and choosing to Help the Helpless with Angel upon her move to LA.

Who brought Darla back?
Wolfram & Hart. Jasmine did not manipulate this into happening. This was a W&H project gone rogue. The firm wanted to reduce Angel to being evil again, and working for them. It’s clear by the ways the firm interacted with Angel through Epiphany.

Why did Darla get pregnant?
It is a side effect of Angel going through the Trials to save Darla. Because he succeeded through the trials, he was granted a life, even though Darla could not be saved again, due to W&H’s spell to resurrect her in To Shanshu in LA. This life was brought forth when Angel and Darla slept together, fulfilling the contract created when Angel won. This did not happen because of Jasmine’s plan, because it was W&H’s plan to bring Darla back. The Higher Powers were not involved in bringing Darla back, otherwise her return would have been similar to Angel’s in season 3 of Buffy.

Did Jasmine manipulate Angel into doing the Trials?
No, because she didn’t bring Darla back. The show indicated that Darla was brought back with the body she had prior to becoming a vampire. The body was disease-ridden, which took a short length of time to turn into physical symptoms. The ritual performed by W&H did what it was supposed to do. The Senior Partners were probably aware of Darla’s expiration the entire time, and wanted to manipulate Angel to turning Darla, thus inciting his return to Evil. But when this didn’t happen, they abandoned Darla. It was the Host who told Angel about the trials, who knew about them, but was not given to him in a reading. In fact, he wisely predicted there was no helping her. This wasn’t Jasmine’s influence on Lorne.

When did Jasmine go rogue?
When the Powers found that Darla became pregnant with an impossible child, Jasmine created a plan to bring herself into the universe. Jasmine began making the visions worse for Cordelia in the back half of Angel season 2, after Connor was conceived. Jasmine uses Skip to do her bidding in season 3, getting Cordelia to agree to accept a demonic form, which is when Jasmine began pouring her powers into Cordelia. This is why there are healing-type powers exhibited by Cordelia at the end of season 3. Jasmine then manipulated the finale, making Cordelia now agree to become a higher power, phrased as a reward. This was Jasmine tipping her hand, because Cordelia would need to become a higher power to be able to host Jasmine in her fetal form. I believe Cordelia became aware of Jasmine’s plans as she was manipulating things in “The House Always Wins,” so Jasmine then returns Cordelia to the Hyperion, hitching a ride as twin souls, wiping her mind in the process as a side effect of sending her back to earth from the Higher Realm, simultaneously setting up the events in Spin the Bottle to awaken and in control of Cordy’s body and then physically manipulate the rest of the events of season 4.


What are your thoughts on Jasmine’s influence? Do you think she influenced all the Angel-related events since BtVS Season 3? Or do you agree with my points? Disagree?

To be frank I thought it was the writers just making crap up as they went along.
We know at the point in Season 4 they thought they were going to be cancelled (renewed only at the very last second) and so even if they were aware of the issues they probably didn't care.
Hell the Sun is supposedly bloted out in LA but not in Sunnydale 🤷

But to anwser your in universe question. No I didn't think her influence went that far back.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I'm more inclined to take the minimalist position. That Jasmine hijacked a TPTB plan to groom a Vampire with Soul, and was on the committee that decided that two vampires should be able to have a kid. The maximalist position, where Jasmine ordered Archeus to turn Henrich Joseph Nast and found Liam's father a job in the linen trade? No

The problem is, Jasmine doesn't inspire me. I can accept she's behind random goons over the years, but the maximalist theory requires her to be written like Grand Admiral Thawn. Wheels within wheels. She just comes off as Glory with mind control.

 

[NotASlayer]

The problem is, Jasmine doesn't inspire me. I can accept she's behind random goons over the years, but the maximalist theory requires her to be written like Grand Admiral Thawn. Wheels within wheels. She just comes off as Glory with mind control.

Really, of all the Big Bads, only the Mayor, the Master and W&H showed any real skill at long-term manipulation. Most of the rest are basically toddlers with guns.

 

[garfan]

I believe that kind stuff was probably her, I just don't believe she can affect choices on a personal level.

 

[Cohen]

Joan the Vampire Slayer I believe the First Evil saved Angel. More on Jasmine later.

Please tell me more!! Let’s hear your theory!

 

[Tome]

This post from @AlphaFoxtrot in the Amends thread got me wondering: who all believes Jasmine influenced Buffy season 3?


For me, I think Jasmine was taking too much credit in Angel Season 4. I think she saw an opening when Cordelia’s visions were getting worse, and began to manipulate things starting with Skip’s appearance to her on her birthday in Angel season 3. But I don’t think she influenced everything back to his returning from Hell.

So who saved Angel from Hell?
The collective Higher Powers, to have him become a Champion of good. At this point, I don’t think Jasmine has gone rogue, though, so I think she was collectively a part of bringing Angel back, but she wasn’t the “cause”.

Who saved Angel on Christmas?
See above.
The First claims credit for bringing Angel back from Hell. But we don’t see the First really wielding any interdimensional powers in either season 3 or season 7. So I don’t think The First has that ability to bring Angel back from Hell. I think in Amends, the First is attempting to manipulate Angel into doing its business, by taking credit for that.

Why was he saved?
When Angel refuses to turn join the First, and instead is willing to sacrifice himself, I think the Higher Powers noted his potential as a Champion, and saved him, putting him on the future path of helping the helpless by teaming with Doyle, who was given the visions to help Angel, which then passed to Cordelia,

Why did Cordelia get the Visions?
When Doyle was willing to sacrifice himself, the Powers allowed his Gift to move to Cordelia, who had also shown the potential to be a Champion through her growth since learning of Buffy’s secret and choosing to Help the Helpless with Angel upon her move to LA.

Who brought Darla back?
Wolfram & Hart. Jasmine did not manipulate this into happening. This was a W&H project gone rogue. The firm wanted to reduce Angel to being evil again, and working for them. It’s clear by the ways the firm interacted with Angel through Epiphany.

Why did Darla get pregnant?
It is a side effect of Angel going through the Trials to save Darla. Because he succeeded through the trials, he was granted a life, even though Darla could not be saved again, due to W&H’s spell to resurrect her in To Shanshu in LA. This life was brought forth when Angel and Darla slept together, fulfilling the contract created when Angel won. This did not happen because of Jasmine’s plan, because it was W&H’s plan to bring Darla back. The Higher Powers were not involved in bringing Darla back, otherwise her return would have been similar to Angel’s in season 3 of Buffy.

Did Jasmine manipulate Angel into doing the Trials?
No, because she didn’t bring Darla back. The show indicated that Darla was brought back with the body she had prior to becoming a vampire. The body was disease-ridden, which took a short length of time to turn into physical symptoms. The ritual performed by W&H did what it was supposed to do. The Senior Partners were probably aware of Darla’s expiration the entire time, and wanted to manipulate Angel to turning Darla, thus inciting his return to Evil. But when this didn’t happen, they abandoned Darla. It was the Host who told Angel about the trials, who knew about them, but was not given to him in a reading. In fact, he wisely predicted there was no helping her. This wasn’t Jasmine’s influence on Lorne.

When did Jasmine go rogue?
When the Powers found that Darla became pregnant with an impossible child, Jasmine created a plan to bring herself into the universe. Jasmine began making the visions worse for Cordelia in the back half of Angel season 2, after Connor was conceived. Jasmine uses Skip to do her bidding in season 3, getting Cordelia to agree to accept a demonic form, which is when Jasmine began pouring her powers into Cordelia. This is why there are healing-type powers exhibited by Cordelia at the end of season 3. Jasmine then manipulated the finale, making Cordelia now agree to become a higher power, phrased as a reward. This was Jasmine tipping her hand, because Cordelia would need to become a higher power to be able to host Jasmine in her fetal form. I believe Cordelia became aware of Jasmine’s plans as she was manipulating things in “The House Always Wins,” so Jasmine then returns Cordelia to the Hyperion, hitching a ride as twin souls, wiping her mind in the process as a side effect of sending her back to earth from the Higher Realm, simultaneously setting up the events in Spin the Bottle to awaken and in control of Cordy’s body and then physically manipulate the rest of the events of season 4.


What are your thoughts on Jasmine’s influence? Do you think she influenced all the Angel-related events since BtVS Season 3? Or do you agree with my points? Disagree?

That's a really good summary of everything. I guess I agree with pretty much all of it, except I'm not 100% certain about who got Angel out of that hell dimension and made the snow fall. I'm tempted to think that it's more likely that Jasmine would have done that as she said (and proved) that she was ready to intervene and meddle in human affairs. I don't think the 'Powers that Be' ever really intervened directly. I even question moments like when Angel was able to enter Kate's apartment uninvited and when a ghost version of 'Darla' showed up to talk to Connor. Was there really more to it than just Jasmine?

 

[NotASlayer]

I doubt the First Evil saved Angel because he arrived in Sunnydale from the hell dimension, and Sunnydale was a place where it repeatedly showed it was unable to plot its way out of a paper bag. Apart from that one time where it gained the ability to predict what would happen in the future down to nearly the right second in order to catch Faith and the Potentials with a time bomb.

 

[Cohen]

Apart from that one time where it gained the ability to predict what would happen in the future down to nearly the right second in order to catch Faith and the Potentials with a time bomb.

fun fact: on the region 1 DVDs (usa and Canada) the explosion scene is missing, just the countdown in “Touched,” because region 1 didn’t have the recaps with the episodes, and the production office mistakenly viewed it as part of the recap.

Also the recap from “The Gift” showing seconds of the first 99 episodes was not included, even though it was specially made for that episode. Instead they made it an Easter egg for season 7 DVDs.

I guess I agree with pretty much all of it, except I'm not 100% certain about who got Angel out of that hell dimension and made the snow fall. I'm tempted to think that it's more likely that Jasmine would have done that as she said (and proved) that she was ready to intervene and meddle in human affairs.

While Jasmine did meddle in human affairs, I don’t think she was meddling that far back. I think she used the opportunity of Connor’s conception, but I don’t think she organized everything before that. She was a narcissist (literally wanting humanity to bow down before her), and kind of symbolizes the mythology of overzealous gods.

I don't think the 'Powers that Be' ever really intervened directly. I even question moments like when Angel was able to enter Kate's apartment uninvited and when a ghost version of 'Darla' showed up to talk to Connor. Was there really more to it than just Jasmine?

The Powers that Be intervene directly every time Cordelia or Doyle was given a vision, so I think they intervene at opportune times. Honestly, though, I think Kate was technically dead when Angel found her, which is why he didn’t need an invitation. Getting her in the cold shower helped to jumpstart her senses again. I could be wrong, but that’s how I’ve always perceived it.

There’s fan theories that Ghost Darla was the First because it didn’t want Jasmine taking over the world for good when it was planning on sending the world to hell.

 

[Tome]

While Jasmine did meddle in human affairs, I don’t think she was meddling that far back. I think she used the opportunity of Connor’s conception, but I don’t think she organized everything before that. She was a narcissist (literally wanting humanity to bow down before her), and kind of symbolizes the mythology of overzealous gods.

The Powers that Be intervene directly every time Cordelia or Doyle was given a vision, so I think they intervene at opportune times. Honestly, though, I think Kate was technically dead when Angel found her, which is why he didn’t need an invitation. Getting her in the cold shower helped to jumpstart her senses again. I could be wrong, but that’s how I’ve always perceived it.

There’s fan theories that Ghost Darla was the First because it didn’t want Jasmine taking over the world for good when it was planning on sending the world to hell.

Well, that's always been the debate. Was Jasmine meddling with Angel all the way back then or did she just start to push things a certain way around the time you mentioned? I don't think the writers had Jasmine planned all the way back in S3 of BtVS, so the original explanation for why Angel was saved in 'Amends' probably had more to do with a benevolent deity.

As for the visions, you are right, although with the twist reveal in 'Inside Out', it's still up for debate whether all of those visions came from the Powers that Be as a whole or from Jasmine.

And I totally forgot about that last point. It's hilarious I forgot because this used to be my theory too. Definitely The First embodying Darla. They didn't make it more clear in the show because at the time they didn't really do many cross-overs.

 

[NotASlayer]

I don't think the writers had Jasmine planned all the way back in S3 of BtVS, so the original explanation for why Angel was saved in 'Amends' probably had more to do with a benevolent deity.

True, and on a meta level this would rule out the First as well as when that appeared it was definitely just a MotW with nothing more planned.

Less meta, why would it have brought Angel back and then try to get him to kill himself? It would just be easier to leave him in the hell dimension.

 

[thetopher]

Less meta, why would it have brought Angel back and then try to get him to kill himself? It would just be easier to leave him in the hell dimension.

My understanding is that The First wanted Angel to turn and become Angelus again, bringing about more evil, suffering, etc. And Angel's response was 'I'm gonna nope off this plane of existence' and then The First was all 'kay, that'll do I guess'.

It plays into the idea of Angel being a significant figure in general- foreshadowing his own show- given that the 'evilest of all evils' wants him either soulless or gone so as not to interfere with its own plans.

I dunno, maybe it foresaw the possible events of S7 and didn't want Angel turning up with the magic death-laser amulet thing and also wanting to wear it for his honey.

 

[NotASlayer]

I dunno, maybe it foresaw the possible events of S7 and didn't want Angel turning up with the magic death-laser amulet thing and also wanting to wear it for his honey.

Bringing Angel back because it foresaw that it was possible that Angel might thwart its future plans in order to stop him from doing that, something that Angel could not have done anyway as long as he was in the hell dimension would be an act of extraordinary stupidity... okay, I see your point, that could totally have been something the First would have done.

 

[Cohen]

The First of Amends is very different than the First of season 7, in my eyes. Because as previously said, it was a MOTW and not really fleshed out. And then turned into a major villain 4 years later.

Jasmine was a major villain that was created on the fly and her presence retconned 4 years of story and that’s my issue with her. I don’t think she influence anything beyond the events of season 3 and 4 of Angel.

 

[thetopher]

Bringing Angel back because it foresaw that it was possible that Angel might thwart its future plans in order to stop him from doing that, something that Angel could not have done anyway as long as he was in the hell dimension would be an act of extraordinary stupidity... okay, I see your point, that could totally have been something the First would have done.

I don't think The First brought back Angel (I'm 50/50 on Jasmine doing it) but it/they probably seized on Angel questioning his continued existence to try and manipulate him. But then it turns out its very bad at manipulating in general. Even when it can literally mind control hapless blond vampires into doing its bidding.

I think its S3 appearance is fine, I even like the OOT Chaos Bleeds PS Game The First plot but S7 it's needlessly idiotic, circumspect and ineffective.


What I like about Jasmine is that it's whole 'I pulled all the strings' could just be interpreted as another mind*** to the good guys; a 'I'm so powerful mwahahaha!' basically its deliberately ambiguous.
And, as Jasmine is actually shown to be clever, circumspect (for an actual good reason) and its scheme makes sense, I'm more willing to give the overall plotline a pass on its less effective aspects.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I think the Ghost Darla was the First is reasonable, however , the series never connects the events in Sunnydale with the events in LA. We also never see the First as anything but cruel, and frankly, I don't think he could pass up the murder of an innocent. So, it is not a position I hold.

 

[NotASlayer]

I think its S3 appearance is fine, I even like the OOT Chaos Bleeds PS Game The First plot but S7 it's needlessly idiotic, circumspect and ineffective.

It was like the First had a room temperature IQ in Sunnydale, the only exception being when it went up against Faith. Which was clearly in a, failed, attempt to make Buffy and Spike look good, which only demonstrated, amongst other things, that if Buffy had been facing the same First as Faith did, let alone the one that successfully killed who knows how many field Watchers, Potentials and the Watchers Council itself, the season would have ended much, much sooner because everyone would be dead.