SoS: Could Willow have saved Fred?

[nightshade]

Do you think it was possible that Willow could have stopped Illyria from infecting/taking over Fred?

 

[thetopher]

Judging from Willow's power level and ability when it comes to stealing/re-directing magical energy...ness (stealing some of Glory's essence to fix Tara's brain, fatally draining magic from people like Rack and Giles, the whole slayer empowerment spell deal) I think its possible she could've redirected/transferred Illyria's ancient essence into another, different vessel depending on the time frame.

Like, maybe if Illyria hadn't fully set up shop in Fred (so, before the end of 'A Hole In The World') Willow could've pulled/pushed it into somebody nearby, therefore necessitating the slow, horrific death of somebody who is not Fred-shaped.

I nominate Knox. Poetic justice. Or maybe just regular justice.

 

[Stake fodder]

Willow was no match for Glory, who was hampered by being trapped in a human vessel. Her powers greatly increased after S5, but I'm not sure they would be a match for Illyria. Illyria was also in a human vessel, but was taking it over by choice instead of being trapped. I think Willow could have done a lot of damage, but my money's on Illyria winning that one.

 

[nightshade]

Willow was no match for Glory, who was hampered by being trapped in a human vessel. Her powers greatly increased after S5, but I'm not sure they would be a match for Illyria. Illyria was also in a human vessel, but was taking it over by choice instead of being trapped. I think Willow could have done a lot of damage, but my money's on Illyria winning that one.

It wasn't about Willow fighting Illyria, but where she could stop Fred from being taken over before Illyria took hold

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Willow is overpowered. They wrote her out of the episode for that reason, and I suspect she would play some role in Fred's return in Season 6. So, trapped inside new age paperweight.

 

[Stake fodder]

It wasn't about Willow fighting Illyria, but where she could stop Fred from being taken over before Illyria took hold

I see. I think Willow could have done some spell that would seal Illyria's casket, so the release of the puff of dust couldn't happen. But of course, she would have to know that was coming.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I see. I think Willow could have done some spell that would seal Illyria's casket, so the release of the puff of dust couldn't happen. But of course, she would have to know that was coming.

I wonder if Illyria would've been immune to spells being performed on her? Assuming she's not, I think Willow could've funnelled its energy into another person and saved Fred.

As thetopher said earlier - into Knox would be my pick.

The likely issue is timing - if the process of Illyria taking over as host had begun, or had progressed too far, maybe it couldn't be reversed.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Wolfram & Hart could not deal with it. Angel and co tried. Yes they were blocked but it seems that the infection would have been hard to stop.

Even before the fact they got the sarcophagus stuck in customs. They had the Black Thorn. If they could have handled it better before they would have done more than tie it up in customs.

Willow was tremendously powerful by the end but if Vail and company could not do more than quarantine it in customs, it suggests they had nothing and while Willow was powerful, i dout she was more powerful than the WRH magical corps that included spells like the one that changed Connors whole history - which meant manipulating reality massively.

Even Illyria said she could not separate from Fred (after the fact).

I vote no on the question.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

You know, Illyria is basically Gozer right? I mean, the Ghostbusters could defeat Gozer, and they had no magic. If Andrew and Willow pooled their resources, they could probably fix the issues with the Deeper Well's containment methods, like a small coffin, with a handle on it. If they could somehow unbound Jonathan and de-Boltonize Warren... they would still need a black friend.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's hard to say if Willow could have saved Fred. But if she had, then we wouldn't have had what Joss loves: happy couples being ripped apart by a force beyond their control.

Because we all know none ever ends up in a happy relationship in the Whedonverse.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

If they could somehow unbound Jonathan and de-Boltonize Warren... they would still need a black friend.

Whoa, was that a Game of Thrones reference? 😊

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

hoponlilmama I never got on board with Wes/Fred. I think she had better chemistry with Gunn - and with Spike!

I'm not a huge fan of Wes/Fred either, but that's mostly because I generally can't stand Fred, lol. That said, you can't argue they were in love.
As for Gunn, I'm Gunn/Anne all the way. They would have made a great couple.
Well, everyone has chemistry with Spike. 😉

 

[hoponlilmama]

hoponlilmama I never got on board with Wes/Fred. I think she had better chemistry with Gunn - and with Spike!

I'm not a huge fan of Wes/Fred either, but that's mostly because I generally can't stand Fred, lol. That said, you can't argue they were in love.

Aw, I love Fred! But fair enough if you don't like her! I think the love was more one-sided from Wes, rather than Fred. That's just me though.

As for Gunn, I'm Gunn/Anne all the way. They would have made a great couple.
Well, everyone has chemistry with Spike. 😉

Ha! True. 😉

 

[NotASlayer]

Well, everyone has chemistry with Spike. 😉

Only everyone he shares the screen with. Which is... thinks... every single main and recurring character. 😀

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yes, Hole In The World, while it took some liberties with everyone suddenly being in love with a hipless 30 year old woman in a world where everyone is a ten, was very much worth it, and having Willow available to stand a body length away, Block, Down, Up, Down, low punch, say the line, and save the day is well worth it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think the love was more one-sided from Wes, rather than Fred. That's just me though.

I agree. I think Wes really admired Fred - her intelligence that is - and his love for her for so long was unrequited that when they finally got together it sort of felt forced.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yes, Hole In The World, while it took some liberties with everyone suddenly being in love with a hipless 30 year old woman in a world where everyone is a ten, was very much worth it, and having Willow available to stand a body length away, Block, Down, Up, Down, low punch, say the line, and save the day is well worth it.

Edit. Just to make it clear, Fred's death was a really good story. Everyone suddenly having a bad foot fetish being in love with Fred, and the "goddess" suddenly being unavailable are contrivances to make the plot go forward. The deeper well would work for ancient vampires, but for monsterous Old Ones? Breaks canon. I'm not clear why Gunn needed to sign for the Sarcophagus. Like, was Knox 's cult giving him the upload? But it was a really good episode, it really draws you in, and it's a very special feeling when you first watch this episode and realize it's 9:55, and nobody's going to save Fred.

 

[Kendar]

Part of the problem with this whole bit is that there's a lot of missing info...

ANGEL
(to phone) Himalayas? I thought she was in South America.

ANGEL
(to phone) All right, look—
(sighs)
What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said— Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going— Don't put me on hold.

ANGEL
(to phone) Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand.
(throws phone against the wall; it shatters)
We're on our own.

So right off the bat we don't know what specifically Angel told Giles. Could just be "We have an emergency and we need help". Could have been every tiny detail. We also don't know whether Giles is telling the truth about Willow's availability or not.

And it's mostly ok that we don't know because the point of the scene isn't to get help for Fred. The point of the scene is to show that AI is so distrusted because of their new job that Sunnydale is unwilling to provide any help.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Part of the problem with this whole bit is that there's a lot of missing info...

ANGEL
(to phone) Himalayas? I thought she was in South America.

ANGEL
(to phone) All right, look—
(sighs)
What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said— Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going— Don't put me on hold.

ANGEL
(to phone) Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand.
(throws phone against the wall; it shatters)
We're on our own.

So right off the bat we don't know what specifically Angel told Giles. Could just be "We have an emergency and we need help". Could have been every tiny detail. We also don't know whether Giles is telling the truth about Willow's availability or not.

It is kinda odd to think that 'they're on their own'. Like only one powerful witch exists on the planet? They're at W&H with resources at their fingertips. Surely they could find another witch/coven to try to help.

The lack of information is obvious in order to move the story (Fred's death) along - and if Willow was there with Giles then at least allow her the choice of going to help someone she knows. She's a powerful witch - if she sensed anything evil was at play she could defend herself easily.

And it's mostly ok that we don't know because the point of the scene isn't to get help for Fred. The point of the scene is to show that AI is so distrusted because of their new job that Sunnydale is unwilling to provide any help.

That's actually a good point.