Was Fred & Wesley Relationship forced?

WillowsFaith

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Season 5 Tried to make Wesley & Fred a thing. Granted Wes has always had feelings for her. His love was more friendzone. Whereas Gun actually put in the effort. the Wes & Fred romance seem forced. Fred & Gunn had a normal, healthy relationship for seasons, but suddenly Fred starts crushing on Wes randomly? This dynamic is my personal least favorite ship of the main cast, and I think Gunn and Fred should have talked out more of thier problems from season 4. Gunn holding her in the finale would have left a greater impact, as thier relationship was actually real and not a fantasy by the writers last minute. The chemistry was always off for these 2. The actors put in great performances, but I never bought Fred being in love with Wes. Maybe Illyria. But Not S2-5 Fred. Do you agree or disagree?
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
I 100% agree!
I liked Fred and Wes together (but I preferred Fred and Gunn), but I agree that it was a little forced. There was too much going on in S5 to give the build-up of Fred's attraction to Wes the focus it needed. Along with other things that season (like Angel having a relationship), it seemed more like there was a bucket list the writers wanted to include before the show ended.
 
J
Joshua
glad someone else likes Gunn and Fred as much as I do!
In retrospect, I should've seen it as the all too predictable death flag for the Jossverse that it was. And since they seem to like to make certain characters suffer more than others, even guessed which one was to die.

As for did I buy it? I went with it, but I kinda do that a lot...I'd put it in about the middle of relationships I could buy or feel skeptical of (or pulling me out of the story thinking this should be fanfic rather than canon). It was tolerable and did not annoy me, and the saving grace was that it was necessary storywise to establish his relationship with Illyria (and I gotta give props to the actress and writer for Illyria's final moments with Wes which is what makes all that came before worth it to me).
 
Fred and Wes had been building for 2 years up until that point. They had a mutual intelligence thing going on before the betrayal. And even after Wes’s betrayal, Fred still tried to go to him when needed. And in season 4, they seemed to get along a lot more, which bled into season 5. The writers tried to throw it with the Knox thing, but there’s always been a little something between them.

Personally I have always felt Fred and Gunn seemed more out there as far as chemistry and connection went. I like Gunn and Gwen a lot better. They had that same streetwise energy going on that really worked
 
Well, I think they wanted to do "A Hole In The World," and decided that Wes & Fred was 1. Now or Never, and 2. A good way to increase the emotional weight of Fred's loss. That was also the way they sold it at the time, every one loved Fred at some point, everyone had something to lose. Which really wasn't true, but was pretty close. Since that episode ranks as the best of the season, if not the series and television, I'm willing to give it a lot of leeway.

I don't get Nina either. If I had to guess, they either had a pile of ideas for Oz/Seth Green that they were never going to do now, as well as realizing that SMG was gone forever, so they might as well write her out of the series, Kimberly Hart style. Let's give Angel a girlfriend, and now that know what we are doing, let's make werewolves not suck.

Remember, season 3 and 4 of Angel are really story heavy, so they probably did have a lot of lighter slice of life stories and unused Buffy pitches that couldn't be used, but could fit in season Mexican Wrestler plot.
 
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Season 5 Tried to make Wesley & Fred a thing. Granted Wes has always had feelings for her. His love was more friendzone. Whereas Gun actually put in the effort. the Wes & Fred romance seem forced. Fred & Gunn had a normal, healthy relationship for seasons, but suddenly Fred starts crushing on Wes randomly? This dynamic is my personal least favorite ship of the main cast, and I think Gunn and Fred should have talked out more of thier problems from season 4. Gunn holding her in the finale would have left a greater impact, as thier relationship was actually real and not a fantasy by the writers last minute. The chemistry was always off for these 2. The actors put in great performances, but I never bought Fred being in love with Wes. Maybe Illyria. But Not S2-5 Fred. Do you agree or disagree?
I think Fred was turned into a White-Man Man-Prize when they tore apart the relationship with Gunn. I hated this! Gunn and Fred had what I think was the healthiest, most joyful relationship in the Buffyverse and they destroyed it for a vapour. Wesley had an obsession with Fred. Fred never EVER had a relationship with him. Other than the one out of the blue kiss, only for a very brief moment at Wolfram and Hart (before she got her memory back, as i recall) did she show marginal interest.

People talk about Wes and Fred, but to me that 'relationship' was a vapour and it bugs me so many act as though something happened. "Lie to me" says even Wes knew it never happened.

Yes it was forced - but still never happened.
 
Fred was always to easy going for the uptight Wesley, she was okay for Gunn until the news of what her professor did to her. Then came Illyria, she should have been a bit more flexible to Spike though !
 
Fred and Wes had been building for 2 years up until that point. They had a mutual intelligence thing going on before the betrayal. And even after Wes’s betrayal, Fred still tried to go to him when needed. And in season 4, they seemed to get along a lot more, which bled into season 5. The writers tried to throw it with the Knox thing, but there’s always been a little something between them.

Personally I have always felt Fred and Gunn seemed more out there as far as chemistry and connection went. I like Gunn and Gwen a lot better. They had that same streetwise energy going on that really worked
Sorry, don't see it. Fred and Gunn slowly built a relationship and then started to build a life together. Wes sat pining for her, and even misused his power as 'boss' to try to put a spanner in the works of Gunn and Fred's nascent relationship.

As stated in the post below, I think Wesley and Fred have NOTHING in common. he's a rich spoiled, over educated man. She's a working class, practical survivor (AEB by surviving Pylea ALONE) She has a similar outlook to the also working class Gunn. They have a sense of humour and they 'fit'. Fred, once she gets over her PTSD, has few of the neuroses that plague Wesley. For more details on my view of the suitability of Gunn for Fred vs the serious sickness that progressively develops in Wes, see this post: (ignore the title of the post, it has nothing to do with Cordelia)
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Fred was always to easy going for the uptight Wesley, she was okay for Gunn until the news of what her professor did to her. Then came Illyria, she should have been a bit more flexible to Spike though !
Yes, Fred was much too easygoing for Wesley. He came from a world of stilted manners and rules. She was the child of a school bus driver. And I do not underestimate Gunn's intelligence. Physical prowess does not a weak mind make!! Fred was likely smarter than both Gunn and Wesley. Gunn, however, did not put her on a pedestal to be worshiped. He was her partner, friend, lover and confidant.

Gunn made just one misstep, out of genuine concern for her. Wes by contrast would have done anything for Fred... THAT is not healthy.

I think that in the real world, she and Gunn could have worked through their difficulties, but the writers chose to play that for drama and someone took the opportunity to 'reward' Wesley with a taste of his obsession. After all, he never did get more than that one kiss.
 
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Fred and Wes had been building for 2 years up until that point. They had a mutual intelligence thing going on before the betrayal. And even after Wes’s betrayal, Fred still tried to go to him when needed. And in season 4, they seemed to get along a lot more, which bled into season 5. The writers tried to throw it with the Knox thing, but there’s always been a little something between them.

Personally I have always felt Fred and Gunn seemed more out there as far as chemistry and connection went. I like Gunn and Gwen a lot better. They had that same streetwise energy going on that really worked
Other than toughness, Gunn and Gwen have little in common. Gunn is a social person, connected and protective of others. He is warm, friendly, caring and involved. He is smart and resourceful, as is she. She is also utterly calculating, ruthless, self protective and cold to the point of being dangerous -- not just because of her condition, but that doesn't help. It isolates her and Gunn gives her a moment of respite, but she will always be about 'Ms. Number One'. Gunn will always be about the group -- his sister, his gang of street protectors, the AI group. There is no place in Gwen's life for 'joining' or being part of.

For Gwen, you get the feeling that connecting with someone was something that happened to other people. I don't see any way she was going to become a team member. She would not have fitted into Gunn's life as other than a fling.

Fred and Charles are both working class kids who don't have airs or graces or 'big ideas' of how 'cool' or 'important' they are. They work well together and they work well with others. They are confident in their abilities and those abilities compliment each other. Fred is not a high brow person; neither is Charles. Notice that Fred sees him from day one... she sees 'Charles' NOT the 'street fighting caricature' that he could have been (and sometimes almost becomes in the series). They became friends. They enjoyed trips to the diner. They made each other laugh.

For me laughter is always fundamental to a good relationship and a good marriage. If you cannot make each other giggle, then you've got vapourware. (the kind of software that promises lots of wonderful things but never delivers).

When Connor was a mess, they did their best to take care of him. They even seemed to succeed to a degree. Though I think Fred was absolutely wrong to taze him after finding out what he'd done to Angel, I think part of it was a sense of betrayal. She'd LOVED him and tried to raise him. But even good parents make horrible mistakes. She was a young woman trying to parent an out of control stranger.

I can see Fred and Charles 30 years from now with their grand children, laughing and playing on the floor. One of their sons went to Caltech, one of their daughters went to Harvard law. Both are black belts. Both of them like making stuff. Their family home is a relaxed one. The elderly Burkles have an in law apartment on the ground floor. All friends are welcome.


I cannot for the life of me imagine Wes and Fred's house together. Or joy or laughter. Maybe the two of them in velvet high back chairs sitting in front of a fire, their heads in separate books. No conversation. No kids. No laughter.
 
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Cohen
Cohen
This is why I love these boards! I love that we can watch the same show and have two opposing viewpoints! ❤️
Other than toughness, Gunn and Gwen have little in common. Gunn is a social person, connected and protective of others. He is warm, friendly, caring and involved. He is smart and resourceful, as is she. She is also utterly calculating, ruthless, self protective and cold to the point of being dangerous -- not just because of her condition, but that doesn't help. It isolates her and Gunn gives her a moment of respite, but she will always be about 'Ms. Number One'. Gunn will always be about the group -- his sister, his gang of street protectors, the AI group. There is no place in Gwen's life for 'joining' or being part of.

For Gwen, you get the feeling that connecting with someone was something that happened to other people. I don't see any way she was going to become a team member. She would not have fitted into Gunn's life as other than a fling.

Fred and Charles are both working class kids who don't have airs or graces or 'big ideas' of how 'cool' or 'important' they are. They work well together and they work well with others. They are confident in their abilities and those abilities compliment each other. Fred is not a high brow person; neither is Charles. Notice that Fred sees him from day one... she sees 'Charles' NOT the 'street fighting caricature' that he could have been (and sometimes almost becomes in the series). They became friends. They enjoyed trips to the diner. They made each other laugh.

For me laughter is always fundamental to a good relationship and a good marriage. If you cannot make each other giggle, then you've got vapourware. (the kind of software that promises lots of wonderful things but never delivers).

When Connor was a mess, they did their best to take care of him. They even seemed to succeed to a degree. Though I think Fred was absolutely wrong to taze him after finding out what he'd done to Angel, I think part of it was a sense of betrayal. She'd LOVED him and tried to raise him. But even good parents make horrible mistakes. She was a young woman trying to parent an out of control stranger.

I can see Fred and Charles 30 years from now with their grand children, laughing and playing on the floor. One of their sons went to Caltech, one of their daughters went to Harvard law. Both are black belts. Both of them like making stuff. Their family home is a relaxed one. The elderly Burkles have an in law apartment on the ground floor. All friends are welcome.


I cannot for the life of me imagine Wes and Fred's house together. Or joy or laughter. Maybe the two of them in velvet high back chairs sitting in front of a fire, their heads in separate books. No conversation. No kids. No laughter.
I love your perspective. I don’t agree but I think you make valid points. I think we were really robbed of seeing Fred and Wesley make a go of it. They do smile and get along with each other. The Wesley of season 5 is much more of a fit than the Wesley of season 3. I think his betrayal, isolation and fall humbled him to be able to better fit with her.

But you bring up very good points. Gunn and Fred do share commonalities, and that’s what the writers saw in bringing them together in season 3. I will say I do think they made a GREAT attempt at a relationship. But there was still that separation. I will agree that Fred’s sudden about face after Supersymmetry doesn’t quite hit the mark when trying to establish the breakup. But I think it was inevitable either way. I never really saw Fred and Gunn working.

That isn’t to say I don’t like Gunn, or think his character is less than Wesley. I just think Fresley fits better than Fred/Gunn.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
There wasn't an actual Fresley, though. Just Wesley obsession & a quick pushing in the direction of something right at the end, mostly driven by Wesley. If they fit so naturally, I think they'd have gotten together before this. But we all have OTPs!
I think it was very low hanging fruit.

Fred and Wesley are very much the “geeks” of the show when they get introduced, and the seeds of his attraction to Fred start early. It is really predictable to ship the two geeks together. Putting her with Gunn opened the door to an interesting character dynamic that nobody really could have expected.

With S5, it feels like they wanted to really hurt Wesley. The show really wanted to put him through the ringer, and I don’t mind that. However, it seems pretty clear that he and Fred start having sparks so that it can hurt him even more when she is replaced by Illyria. Kind of a cheap move to incite some character development.
 
I think it was very low hanging fruit.

Fred and Wesley are very much the “geeks” of the show when they get introduced, and the seeds of his attraction to Fred start early. It is really predictable to ship the two geeks together. Putting her with Gunn opened the door to an interesting character dynamic that nobody really could have expected.

With S5, it feels like they wanted to really hurt Wesley. The show really wanted to put him through the ringer, and I don’t mind that. However, it seems pretty clear that he and Fred start having sparks so that it can hurt him even more when she is replaced by Illyria. Kind of a cheap move to incite some character development.
Never do care for the 'man-pain needed; let's fridge a female character'. They even brought back Cordelia so they could kill her definitively! NCIS majored in this and that soured me on the show. I think that Angel (and to a lesser extent, Buffy) ended up killing off women for drama, but then again, eventually Angel killed off almost everyone!

It definitely looked like they manufactured the 'sparks' just so they could make Wes's man pain bigger. Would have meant more to me had Gunn and Wes both been with her... or better yet, the entire team. She loved Lorne. Why wasn't he there at her death bed?
 
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