Do Angel and Spike even WANT to become humans?

Angel and Spike keep fighting each other because of many reasons. One of them is their will to be humans. But do they even really want that?

Angel: when he had the ring of Amarah, he gave up on it with this (excuse?):

Angel: "I have. I've thought of it from every angle, and what I figure is I did a lot of damage in my day, more than you can imagine."
Doyle: "So what, you don't get the ring because your period of self-flagellation isn't over yet? I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5."
Angel: "They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don't see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I'd stop seeing, too."

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And in IWRY, Angel hates the back aches and human physical weakness and all that. He didn't enjoy being human, only enjoyed the Buffy part.

Spike: Seems to really enjoy being a vampire. No need for examles, anyone can see that.

"Destiny", Ats S5: They both fight, almost to the death, to get the cup that will turn one of them into human being. They both seem to want it so bad.

BUT! Do they even want to be humans? Or is the only reason they want it is so they could be with Buffy?

I think that they both see becoming human as a way to achieve redemption, that becoming human and mortal was the prize, and that Buffy becomes the symbol that they have achieved the redemption that they both seek.

However I don't think either of them really think through what that means. Not even Angel who remembers being human for one day and not being able to keep up with Buffy he essentially rejects it. I think what they really want is to become human so that they can age and have children BUT retain certain Vampire traits such as the strength, speed and healing. Essentially becoming Buffy's match in every way, this is what they are striving for in Destiny, IMO. I don't think either really thinks through what becoming human would mean.

I think they both want it because each other wants it mainly. That is why they fought so hard for it.

I don't think though that they would want it 100%. Like you said about Angel it would be hard for him to help the helpless as a human that gets beat up all the time. I think they do want it in ways because it means they have made up for their sins but I think if they really thought about it and wanted to continue doing the mission they wouldn't want it.

To me this represents such human-like characteristics you want what you can't have because you can't have it.

Honestly that's one thing that always bothered me... At least in Angel case. In 'I Will Remember You' he turns into a human, and he finally realize that being a human, he can't fight his own battles, he'd have to put Buffy at risk and bla bla bla... So I don't get his enthusiasm and everything in 'To Shanshu in L.A' when he finds out he'll become human again. Yea I get the redemption part, and having a reason to keep fighting, but still it's a lil contradictory. Wouldn't he be put in the same situation again and want to become a vampire so he could actually have a major impact on good vs evil? Knowing Angel, I bet he would... It's utopic for him to think that evil will suddenly disappear in the future and he won't have to fight it. Holland gave him a good lesson in s2 when he told him about how the world work along with evil and not despite it. Angel should know better is all I'm saying!

Obviously you could also look at it as Angel COULD still fight as a human, he could still help Buffy and others, because if Gunn, Xander, Fred, Wesley, Riley and so on could do their part as humans, he surely could, what with his 200 years + experience. But then, why didn't he just stay human in 'IWRY'? 😉

This topic sure can be confusing.

I just can't say it any better than [MENTION=11401]ticonderouga[/MENTION] (I couldn't rep you again)

Honestly that covers it for me.

There are advantages for both human and vampire. Yet I do not think they understand fully what it means to be human. Even though they risk their lives to save humanity they will never understand it.

And yea, Angel's excuse for not taking the ring was just lame. Just saying. I would snatch that puppy mad quick. You know how much that would go for in the black market?! 🙂

Chosen Enemy said:

"Destiny", Ats S5: They both fight, almost to the death, to get the cup that will turn one of them into human being. They both seem to want it so bad.

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When it comes to Destiny I think a big part of why they fight so hard for the cup is their rivalry. Angel/Angelus-Spike have been fierce rivals for more or less everything from the get go, kind of like a competitive brother team, always wanting to one-up each other. Be it with Drusilla, Slayer-killing, Buffy, victim saving, Cavemen-astronaut arguments... they're constantly striving to beat one another.

So while a part of them probably want to be human (they seem mainly focused on the rewards of this, turning a blind-eye to the downsides... perhaps out of sheer disbelief of it ever happening) I do think that they're not a full 100% on it and that there probably wouldn't have been such a race to the cup hadn't they both been eligible candidates for its rewards.

(had only Angel been ensouled I can easily picture a lot of ruminating from his side on whether or not to go after the cup, finally doing so and then ruminating yet again on the effects of drinking it's elixlir... it would kind of have been like the Gem of Amara decision... an easy way out of redemption... Spike ,in my mind, was no doubt the reason for his urgency here)

Angel may genuinely want to be human again eventually. I don't think he wants it now, or is even ready for it.

I think Spike just wanted to take it from Angel. To Spike it was obvious that Angel wanted it and so he went to take it from him. Angel has pretty much always won everything between him and Spike. He's always had to live under Angel's shadow and "Destiny" was his chance to step out from that shadow. I guess.

Supposedly, the reason that Angel renounced his humanity in "I Will Remember You" was because the Powers told him that Buffy would die trying to protect him (A half truth at best, since Buffy did, in fact, die anyway, protecting her sister at the end of Season 5) but I always saw a certain inconsistency there. Why couldn't human Angel be at least as good a demon fighter, and just as capable of protecting himself as Xander, Giles, Wes, Gunn, or any of the others? Given his two hundred plus years of experience in the vampire/demon community, he might have even had an advantage over them. So, was there another reason, one that Angel wasn't willing to admit, or even wasn't consciously aware of himself?

Human Angel wouldn't be the strongest kid on the block the way that Vampire Angel was. When he got hurt (this was mentioned in the episode) the pain didn't magically vanish, the injuries didn't conveniently heal themselves overnight. Assuming that as a human, he was at the peak of his physical development, simply the reality of normal aging was going to begin diminishing that, month by month, for the rest of his life. And his remaining life span was going to consist of, at best, decades rather than centuries. Even if he were allowed to spend those decades with the woman he loved, would that REALLY be preferable to immortality? That would be a hard decision for any man to make, even more so for one who already has that immortality and is considering giving it up. He KNOWS what he will be losing. Plus there is the uncertainty of whether he would actually be giving up all of that only to lose Buffy later (okay, the Powers' prophecy pretty made that a certainty, but even if that particular time could have been avoided, the Slayer's life is uncertain, at best. Would they have more than a few years together? All of that, either consciously or subconsciously, had to be running through Angel's mind when he made his bargain with the Powers.

As for Spike, I think that he is totally adjusted to and comfortable with his status as immortal, super powered demon fighter, Big Bad For The Bright Side, poet with the heart of a warrior, and warrior with the spirit of a poet. Other than ti irritate Angel, I strongly doubt that mortality has any real appeal to him. Being a vampire is just too damn much fun. Plus he knows, and accepts, the fact that age will almost never become a factor in determining the amount of time that he is allowed to have with Buffy. One, the other, or both, will almost certainly meet violent deaths long before that.

So, bottom line, I don't think that either man would give up what he has for what he's pretty sure he's likely to get in exchange.

As vampires go it seems we never met one who wanted to be human again. Angel was given his soul back which made him "feel" again. Living forever with Human feeling as a murder with a tortured soul sounds unacceptably difficult. The chip in Spikes head seems to render the same results for him. I would think both would like to remain vampires if not for the duel feeling of humanity both posses. But honestly I would think both Spike and Angel would have no answer for that question. Which is one of the things that made BTVS so interesting.

Question: What happens to the perfect happiness clause if Angel became human, will it still exist or just disappear?

the pack said:

As vampires go it seems we never met one who wanted to be human again. Angel was given his soul back which made him "feel" again. Living forever with Human feeling as a murder with a tortured soul sounds unacceptably difficult. The chip in Spikes head seems to render the same results for him. I would think both would like to remain vampires if not for the duel feeling of humanity both posses. But honestly I would think both Spike and Angel would have no answer for that question. Which is one of the things that made BTVS so interesting.

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Just a correction: Spike's chip didn't make him want to be human or feel human feelings again. It was Buffy.

Angel views humanity as forgiveness. They are intricately linked. For Angel, there cannot be one without the other. He does not want it unless he has earned it. That's why he gave away the ring and, I think, perhaps played a part in IWRY. When he says to Doyle "We don't belong to oursleves. We belong to the world of fighting". He is letting us know that it wasn't right. That it was too easy. That they both had duties bigger then themselves. Bigger than their relationship.

Angel wants humanity desperately, but only humanity that he has earned. That he deserves. Because to him, it won't just be a heart beat. It will be redemption.

Spike, though? I think I relishes being a vampire. In fact I think he thrives on it. I don't believe for a second that he wants to be human. Or that the show has ever indicated that in his heart of hearts, that's what he wants.

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

nightshade said:

Question: What happens to the perfect happiness clause if Angel became human, will it still exist or just disappear?

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It becomes a non-factor. Just as it did in IWRY.

The demon Angelus is cursed with the soul. By being made human, the demon is gone. And so too is the loophole.

I'm also thinking about Angel, he had 2(!) opportunities to at least live as a human. Both cases he chose not to. Different cases, timings and reasons, yes. But bottom line, I just don't think he truly wants it. Not deep inside. He says and acts as though he does, but he's been given the chances and he chose not to take it both times.

Spike had one chance - "Destiny". And no matter what reasons he had, he chose to drink from the cup and become human.

So I think that should give some pointers to my question.

Chosen Enemy said:

I'm also thinking about Angel, he had 2(!) opportunities to at least live as a human. Both cases he chose not to. Different cases, timings and reasons, yes. But bottom line, I just don't think he truly wants it. Not deep inside. He says and acts as though he does, but he's been given the chances and he chose not to take it both times.

Spike had one chance - "Destiny". And no matter what reasons he had, he chose to drink from the cup and become human.

So I think that should give some pointers to my question.

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Angel wants it. I really cannot stress that enough. However, he does not believe he deserves it. He doesn't just want to simply be alive, but he wants to feel free to live. And not be broken by the weight of what he has done wrong, and what he has not repaid. He believes he can do more good and to help as vampire than a human.

Interesting discussion topic! 🙂

I do think both Angel and Spike want to become human again, but not for the same reasons. Like Kean said, I think Angel wants it because it'll be for redemption. That's always been his ultimate goal. For Spike, he doesn't give "a piss about atonement," but I think he wants it only to take it away from Angel, and prove to himself that he is better than Angel.

I also think Angel wants it slightly more than Spike, only because it seems like he desperately wants a human/normal life. He dreamed about being part of a family, he wants to provide for Connor, and I think in some way, he wants to have a better life than the one he had before being sired. For Spike, I think he finds more fulfillment being a souled vampire now. He's become someone (or tries to be, especially from AtS s5 onward), and he really was no one before being sired. For Angel, I think he thinks his fulfillment will be when he becomes human again because it'll mean he's ultimately redeemed.

Kean agrees: Look at us, agreeing on something Angel/Spike related!

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Did hell freeze over, lol? 😉

Kean said:

Angel wants it. I really cannot stress that enough. However, he does not believe he deserves it. He doesn't just want to simply be alive, but he wants to feel free to live. And not be broken by the weight of what he has done wrong, and what he has not repaid. He believes he can do more good and to help as vampire than a human.

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I think he wants it for the wrong reasons. Not sure what they are though. I'm talking about the deepest of his heart. Even if he's not aware of it, he doesn't truely wants it. He seems to always make excuses. In IWRY it looks to me like he was relieved that he had the chance to return to being a vampire. No, didn't look like it to me, I just sensed it. I think he only wanted it to be with Buffy and make her happy. He was hurting by the pain that Buffy was in when she found out it would all be cancelled and he wouldn't be human anymore. But I think he found his way out. He didn't try very hard looking for solution. The only pain he's had giving that up was about Buffy. He hated being human. He didn't stop complaining.

I think in season 5, when Spike beat him, only then Angel started considering whether he even deserved it or not. Also, in the same episode, it was proven that Spike wanted it more (if at all). Angel said that himself.

That doesn't mean Spike didn't want it for the wrong reasons as well!! I do believe Spike wanted it for 2 main reasons: 1) Buffy, and 2) To take that away from Angel, after all those years of him (Angel) beating him and taking everything from him (like Drusilla).

That's why I think deep down they both don't want it. If they do, for the wrong reasons, and it's very fake. I think they both pretend to want it. But if you ask their heart, it will tell you they don't really. I'm not sure they even know it or admit it though.

[MENTION=10326]StarSlayer[/MENTION] Nope, but I hear pigs just flew! 😛

Kean agrees: I'll just have to sincerely and politely disagree with you. There is nothing in the world that could convince me he does not want it. Or that he doesn't view it as forgiveness and something he should only have when he has earned it

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That's the beauty of the show. We see different things and believe in different things. And will never convince each other 😀

[MENTION=10326]StarSlayer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] : I'm just as surprised as you! 😀

I agree with a lot that's been said.

Angel simply didn't blow off opportunities to become human. The Oracles told Angel that a specific battle was coming that Buffy would fight for him that she would not survive (in IWRY). This was arguably The Scourge. He brought up how this was something they'd face all the time - to convince her? to calm her? to convince himself he made the right choice? - so changing his mind was not based on generalization but a specific promise from The Oracles and thus the PTB. I think his tears showed he wanted it but it's not worth living at the risk of her. It would've been a great life with her but a short one, so what's the point?

By Shanshuing, though another prohecy could pop up about the danger of him becoming humna (though it NEVER did), it makes it about self-fullfillment. It makes his reward come from what he has accomplished. He gave up the Ring because the people of the day "had help." But if you look at from a complimentary place of Angel wants to earn this for the right reasons and to live the reward in the best conditions possible then his actions (of having to turn away being human twice) make a buttload of sense.

I dunno why Spike wants it; he alludes to Buffy liking guys with a dangerous side ("a little monster in your man," or something) so wouldn't it kill his edge and chance with her? I honestly think it's only because Angel wants it. Angel would run right to Buffy and they could be together but by Spike taking it away from Angel, Angel can't win at all. It's in character and it makes sense. Spike can have a love life and do good as a vampire; Angel can do good as a vampire but can't have a love life.

The circumstances of each case and how Angel turned down these opportunities to become human does not prove to me that he doesn't want it - in fact, it proves to me that he needs it. When it's that important to you, you don't settle for second best. Also, like he said, he's not getting any older.

Well Angel did say that himself, that Spike wanted that more. Doesn't that mean something? No matter what reasons they both had, Spike wanted it more. That's a fact and it was made clear in "Destiny".