Do Angel and Spike even WANT to become humans?

[Zeppo]

Well Angel did say that himself, that Spike wanted that more. Doesn't that mean something? No matter what reasons they both had, Spike wanted it more. That's a fact and it was made clear in "Destiny".

The brooding, emo vampire said that Spike wanted it more after he lost to him. So, meh, it doesn't mean much to me and I also wouldn't call what he said a fact. He taunted Angel that whole episode, it's a game to him. It's in character, Spike can be a jackass! It's part of his appeal and persona! I think it's about the principle of beating Angel rather than the reward.

 

[Kean]

Well Angel did say that himself, that Spike wanted that more. Doesn't that mean something? No matter what reasons they both had, Spike wanted it more. That's a fact and it was made clear in "Destiny".

At that time though, Angel was CEO of Hell Incorporated and it was weighing heavy on him. He didn't believe he deserved it because of he compromised himself by taking on W&H. This disillusionment is the exact reason why Cordy came back and set him right. He had lost the mission. Angel didn't feel worthy of it, that's why he basically gave up in that fight. I think he actually says a lot of this too Cordy.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The brooding, emo vampire said that Spike wanted it more after he lost to him. So, meh, it doesn't mean much to me and I also wouldn't call what he said a fact. He taunted Angel that whole episode, it's a game to him. It's in character, Spike can be a jackass! I think it's about the principle of beating Angel rather than the reward.

I think you missunderstood the episode. That was the whole point of it. To make Angel doubt about the Shanshu, doubt the prophecy was ever about him. He started thinking that maybe Spike will Shanshu. Because he fills all of the requirements of the prophecy as well. Yes, it was about principle. THAT was the point. But not of beating Angel like it means nothing. And not who becomes human, but who the Shanshu is about, who wants it more. Spike beat Angel FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER! And that means he truely wants it more than him.

I agree Spike is a jackass and that he wants to annoy Angel and make his life even harder. But that's not what I'm trying to say. This episode is not about annoying Angel. Or this episode would have been pointless. But it's not the case. This is one of the most important episodes of the series, because it has an important meaning, which is not annoying Angel. But make Angel doubt everything. And he said that Spike wanted it more. He admitted that. So according to all that I explained just now, this is a fact. That was the point of this episode, that fact that I explained.

 

[StarSlayer]

Well Angel did say that himself, that Spike wanted that more. Doesn't that mean something? No matter what reasons they both had, Spike wanted it more. That's a fact and it was made clear in "Destiny".

In those circumstances in "Destiny," I definitely think Spike wanted it more. Spike had come a long way from their days in Europe, when Angelus would pretty much beat Spike in everything. And he wasn't going to let Angel do that again, especially after getting a soul. He wanted to become human to take something away from Angel (as he admitted) and because he really wanted it. "A bit of both."

Also, at that point, Angel was lost and vulnerable, maybe stopped caring. He was having doubts about joining W&H, about whether he really was the souled vampire chosen by the PTB, and just about himself in general. So, I think that allowed Spike to overpower Angel. Part of it was Spike wanted it more, mentally.

But, I think in the long-run, Angel wants it slightly more because he's been working for it longer. So, he feels like he deserves it more.

 

[Kean]

I think you missunderstood the episode. That was the whole point of it. To make Angel doubt about the Shanshu, doubt the prophecy was ever about him. He started thinking that maybe Spike will Shanshu. Because he fills all of the requirements of the prophecy as well. Yes, it was about principle. THAT was the point. But not of beating Angel like it means nothing. And not who becomes human, but who the Shanshu is about, who wants it more. Spike beat Angel FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER! And that means he truely wants it more than him.

If it means anything, it means Spike wants to beat Angel. At anything. It wasn't the humanity Spike was after; it was the triumph over Angel and knowing he had taken something Angel wanted from him.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

In those circumstances in "Destiny," I definitely think Spike wanted it more. Spike had come a long way from their days in Europe, when Angelus would pretty much beat Spike in everything. And he wasn't going to let Angel do that again, especially after getting a soul. He wanted to become human to take something away from Angel (as he admitted) and because he really wanted it. "A bit of both."

That's my point. Spike wants it for the wrong reasons (so does Angel). But he still wants it more.

Also, at that point, Angel was lost and vulnerable, maybe stopped caring. He was having doubts about joining W&H, about whether he really was the souled vampire chosen by the PTB, and just about himself in general. So, I think that allowed Spike to overpower Angel. Part of it was Spike wanted it more, mentally.

But, I think in the long-run, Angel wants it slightly more because he's been working for it longer. So, he feels like he deserves it more.

Again, that was the point of the episode. To make Angel realize that Spike wants it more, so he will think the Shanshu is about him. The writers had a good reason for Angel saying Spike beat him because he wanted it more, and not saying: "I was vulnerable, I had doubts joining W&H and tired so he beat me".

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

If it means anything, it means Spike wants to beat Angel. At anything. It wasn't the humanity Spike was after; it was the triumph over Angel and knowing he had taken something Angel wanted from him.

Spike wanted to beat Angel, yes. But he also wanted to beat Angel FOR the humanity TO take it away from Angel. He had the wrong reasons for wanting it, but he wanted it harder, he faught for it harder. He was desperate to take this away from him. No matter what reasons he had, he wanted it more. Spike was being immature, but he faught harder for what he wanted, so for the first time he beat Angel.

But again, none of them REALLY wanted it, IMO. Deep inside, they both don't really really want it.

 

[StarSlayer]

That's my point. Spike wants it for the wrong reasons (so does Angel). But he still wants it more.

Like I said, in the long-run, I think Angel slightly wants it more, only because that's always been his goal. He just lost sight of it in "Destiny." Hence, "You're Welcome" and for Cordy to get him back on track. 🙂

Again, that was the point of the episode. To make Angel realize that Spike wants it more, so he will think the Shanshu is about him.

Both want it, no doubt in my mind. In "Destiny," I think Spike proved only to Angel that he wanted it more because he finally beat Angel. And Spike beating Angel showed him that all these doubts he's been having (past and present) may in fact be right, because Spike proved he's a worthy competitor for the Shanshu. That's not to say though Angel doesn't want it more. I actually think by doubting himself, Angel feels like he deserves it more and thus, wants it more.

 

[Zeppo]

I think you missunderstood the episode. That was the whole point of it. To make Angel doubt about the Shanshu, doubt the prophecy was ever about him. He started thinking that maybe Spike will Shanshu. Because he fills all of the requirements of the prophecy as well. Yes, it was about principle. THAT was the point. But not of beating Angel like it means nothing. And not who becomes human, but who the Shanshu is about, who wants it more. Spike beat Angel FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER! And that means he truely wants it more than him.

I agree Spike is a jackass and that he wants to annoy Angel and make his life even harder. But that's not what I'm trying to say. This episode is not about annoying Angel. Or this episode would have been pointless. But it's not the case. This is one of the most important episodes of the series, because it has an important meaning, which is not annoying Angel. But make Angel doubt everything. And he said that Spike wanted it more. He admitted that. So according to all that I explained just now, this is a fact. That was the point of this episode, that fact that I explained.

I get the point of the episode is to make Angel doubt his role in Shanshu. That was the point and the tactic was Spike taunting him and beating him to the cup. What I don't agree with that must Spike wants it more just because he finally beat him. That's two stand alone messages that can be related but are not the same. I think the point is that there are 2 capable contenders who have a chance now, the point is not that Spike wants it more (just because Angel said so in a moment of failure, too flimsy a support). It's not thematic enough for the title character.

For the sake of elaborating ...

Spike is a recent and only competition Angel has ever had for that honor. I have been challenged by others for stage roles that makes me play the game off-sided because of the stress and feeling unprepared (Spike had just corporal-ized then went after that cup, that's a lot of competition in a short amount of time to get ready for). He may of beat him that time but he may not of the next 100 times (like in the elevator when Angel was a puppet, for instance, Spike was caught off guard and lost despite having the advantage).

My major hold-up: I just don't see any reason how Spike could want it more than Angel because there are no stakes if Spike looses. Like I said, Spike can have his cake and eat it too just the way he is; Angel cannot.

Just because Angel said Spike wanted it more in a moment of feeling failure does not make it a fact, you cannot take something such as this that a character says and take it as fact. If that's how you chose to see it that's fine but it is not fact.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Like I said, in the long-run, I think Angel slightly wants it more, only because that's always been his goal. He just lost sight of it in "Destiny." Hence, "You're Welcome" and for Cordy to get him back on track. 🙂

Just because someone wants something for longer, doesn't mean they want it more. Spike didn't even know about the possibility of the prophecy. He didn't even know there was a chance of a vampire with a soul to become human again.

Both want it, no doubt in my mind. In "Destiny," I think Spike proved only to Angel that he wanted it more because he finally beat Angel. And Spike beating Angel showed him that all these doubts he's been having (past and present) may in fact be right, because Spike proved he's a worthy competitor for the Shanshu. That's not to say though Angel doesn't want it more. I actually think by doubting himself, Angel feels like he deserves it more and thus, wants it more.

That's what triggered the doubts in Angel after the fight. Because he knew Spike was as worthy as him, because he's quallified. He's also a vampire with a soul who played a major role in the apocalypse. And the fact that Spike beat him, reinforced those doubts. The fact that he beat him, showed him that he's not only quallified, but also wants it more. 1+2=3winner! 😀

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------

I get the point of the episode is to make Angel doubt his role in Shanshu. That was the point and the tactic was Spike taunting him and beating him to the cup. What I don't agree with that must Spike wants it more just because he finally beat him. That's two stand alone messages that can be related but are not the same. I think the point is that there are 2 capable contenders who have a chance now, the point is not that Spike wants it more (just because Angel said so in a moment of failure, too flimsy a support). It's not thematic enough for the title character.

Because for the first time ever he beat him. So he must want it. It's not just another fight, it's the real thing.

Just because Angel said Spike wanted it more in a moment of feeling failure does not make it a fact, you cannot take something such as this that a character says and take it as fact. If that's how you chose to see it that's fine but it is not fact.

Because that's what the episode is about! Not just because Angel said that. The whole season is about that, that maybe Spike is the one. The episode proves that maybe Spike is more worthy than Angel (from Angel's conclusion), he wants it more so that's one of the reasons.

 

[Zeppo]

I think we can both agree, then, that Spike is a competitor for the title as he can fit the criteria. We just disagree on who wants it (more).

However, I do wanna ask people a question or two. Four: What does Angel loose if he does not get Shanshu? What does he gain if he does? What does Spike loose if he does not get the Shanshu? What does he gain if he does?

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think we can both agree, then, that Spike is a competitor for the title as he can fit the criteria. We just disagree on who wants it (more).

However, I do wanna ask people a question or two. Four: What does Angel loose if he does not get Shanshu? What does he gain if he does? What does Spike loose if he does not get the Shanshu? What does he gain if he does?

We can also agree that Spike is childish, a jackass who wants to put Angel down.
At the end of the day, I think deep inside neither really wants it. They're just pretending. But I wrote all about it in earlier posts, I won't write it all again. I just don't believe neither of them wants it deep in their hearts. Not really. Just on the surface. We can disagree on that, because I feel like I'm grinding water here lol.

 

[Kean]

What does Angel loose if he does not get Shanshu?

What he (often) perceives to be his reason for being. And hope.

However, he gradually comes around to the idea that the "End Game" is not what it is about, it's the journey. Or as he put it himself; if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do. Angel knows this but I think he cannot extinguish his very real desire to be forgiven. To make amends. I think that desire often leads him to forget that it is the simple "doing of good" that matters. When he embraces that he is at his best. What cripples Angel is the thought that none of it means anything. None of the sacrifice or the pain means a damn thing. That the world is not any better for it. When he gets into that mindset worlds end and vampires start having babies.

What does he gain if he does?

Salvation. At least from his perspective. A new start. A chance to "do it right". I think he'll learn some harsh lessons too though.

 

[StarSlayer]

Just because someone wants something for longer, doesn't mean they want it more. Spike didn't even know about the possibility of the prophecy. He didn't even know there was a chance of a vampire with a soul to become human again.

That's why I said, "slightly," lol! If I'm leaning toward Angel or Spike as to who wants it "more," I give the slight edge to Angel for the reason I stated. 🙂 In "You're Welcome," when everything got straightened out with Lindsay, Spike didn't seem to really care anymore about the Shanshu (that's not say he's not worthy of it because I believe he is). Moving forward, he still was trying to figure out his destiny. What he wanted. I think Spike finally figured that out in "Shells," when he decided to stay with Angel and help in the good fight. IMO, that's what was more important to Spike rather than trying to become human again. That's why I mentioned I think Spike gets more fulfillment as a souled vampire because he's become somebody, or tries to be. But, that's not to say Spike didn't want it anymore because I think some part of him still does.

That's what triggered the doubts in Angel after the fight. Because he knew Spike was as worthy as him, because he's quallified. He's also a vampire with a soul who played a major role in the apocalypse. And the fact that Spike beat him, reinforced those doubts. The fact that he beat him, showed him that he's not only quallified, but also wants it more. 1+2=3winner! 😀

I agree that it showed Spike wants it more, but only based on that episode. 🙂 In "Destiny," Spike thought his destiny was to fulfill the prophecy and ultimately, become human again. So, that thought motivated him to want it more because it meant he could be better than Angel, something he never thought could be possible. Yet, as I mentioned above, things changed afterward.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

That's why I said, "slightly," lol! If I'm leaning toward Angel or Spike as to who wants it "more," I give the slight edge to Angel for the reason I stated. 🙂 In "You're Welcome," when everything got straightened out with Lindsay, Spike didn't seem to really care anymore about the Shanshu (that's not say he's not worthy of it because I believe he is). Moving forward, he still was trying to figure out his destiny. What he wanted. I think Spike finally figured that out in "Shells," when he decided to stay with Angel and help in the good fight. IMO, that's what was more important to Spike rather than trying to become human again. That's why I mentioned I think Spike gets more fulfillment as a souled vampire because he's become somebody. But, that's not to say Spike didn't want it anymore because I think some part of him still does.



I agree that it showed Spike wants it more, but only based on that episode. 🙂 In "Destiny," Spike thought his destiny was to fulfill the prophecy and ultimately, become human again. So, that thought motivated him to want it more because it meant he could be better than Angel, something he never thought could be possible. Yet, as I mentioned above, things changed afterward.

I agree with most of your post. But especially with Spike realizing what's really important to him. I think that's when he grew up and stopped feeling like he had to beat Angel, and start worrying for the sake of the world. They should work together, not against each other. Spike didn't start fighting for the good side because there was a prophecy with a reward, he did it because it was the right thing to do. On Btvs, and later on on Ats. Angel knew about the prophecy, so I think that made him fight harder. Not that he didn't want to fight evil before the prophecy. But he started working harder, so I kinda doubt his motives. I just felt it was a little fake of him. But I could be wrong about that. But I still stick with my theory that neither really wanted that.

Zeppo agrees: Ha childish jackass, amen!

I admit though. I like that about him, it's funny how he annoys Angel like a little brother.

 

[the pack]

Just a correction: Spike's chip didn't make him want to be human or feel human feelings again. It was Buffy.

I don't believe that would be correct. Although I don't like to look at BTVS in a right/wrong concept that needs correcting. However there can be no argument that the chip in Spikes head was the start of his personality change. Not Buffy. One might even suggest that chip no longer let Spike be who he was because of the physical pain. The way Angel's soul gave him emotional pain. In my humble opinion Spike's chip is as life altering as Angel's soul.

 

[white avenger]

Just to get the entire "Cup Of Eternal Mountain Dew" fight out of the way, I think that Spike really did want something there, but it really had nothing to do with Shanshu prophesies, rewards, redemption, or even Buffy. What Spike wanted so much there was to beat the living crap out of the man who had intimidated, belittled, dominated and outright tortured for a century. Unfortunately, since Angelus wasn't there, poor ol' Angel was the next best substitute. So he beat the crap out of Angel.

And, no, I'm not saying that it was easy, or that he could do it again if the situation arose. And, really, it's not even so much that Spike wanted that as much as he NEEDED it. He could have cared less about the Shanshu. Angel was the one who needed redemption. What Spike wanted was to finally take his own stand, fight his own battle, and beat his own personal Big Bad. That was Spike's reward, the thing that he had fought and suffered for, and I believe that his attaining it had a lot to do with the actual reason he didn't go to Europe hunting Buffy (Drifting a bit off track, there. Sorry)

My point is, yes, Spike wanted "it" more than Angel did, but the two men were fighting for two separate things. That's why, as Wes tried to tell Angel, losing that fight to Spike had nothing whatsoever to do with the Shanshu Prophesy. It was really about the prophesy of the vampire with the soul kicking his grand sire's ass just to convince Granddad, the world, and himself, that he was nobody's minion anymore.

Also, Spike didn't want to share the Mountain Dew with Angel.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I don't believe that would be correct. Although I don't like to look at BTVS in a right/wrong concept that needs correcting. However there can be no argument that the chip in Spikes head was the start of his personality change. Not Buffy. One might even suggest that chip no longer let Spike be who he was because of the physical pain. The way Angel's soul gave him emotional pain. In my humble opinion Spike's chip is as life altering as Angel's soul.

I disagree. The chip just made up fight on Buffy's side because of selfish reasons. The real change, the change from his heart, started when he fell for Buffy, and did things for her, and not for money. Up until then it was for money. Watch through seasons 2-5. He was evil, obsessed with the Slayer. Then got the chip so he helped them so they will give him money (and he also liked violence of any kind, even demons). Then in season 5 he realized he loved Buffy so he started showing her his love by doing things for her (even if it was for selfish reasons). No money involved usually. When Buffy finally accepted him, he started doing things for the good, not just Buffy. When it wasn't obsession anymore, but love.

The chip didn't change his personality. It just made him unable to bite so he did things for money so he could buy blood, to keep living. I don't see any connection between Angel's soul and Spike's chip. Maybe Spike's soul.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think that what Spike and Angel have in common here is that they've lived as vampires for long enough to understand the futility of that existence- particularly having souls and seeing what the vampire existence leads them to do in order to survive. I don't think either of them would want to go back to their pre-vampire personalities, though- William is effectively the punchline to the joke of what sort of person Spike would have been before he was turned, while what we see of Liam is a selfish, irresponsible hellraiser. So they want the best of both worlds- a human lifespan and a part in the human world, but separate from their old weaknesses and character flaws.

 

[VisionGirl]

And in IWRY, Angel hates the back aches and human physical weakness and all that. He didn't enjoy being human, only enjoyed the Buffy part.

Just want to point out that the backaches & physical weakness is not why he gave up the opportunity to remain human in IWRY.

Angel simply didn't blow off opportunities to become human. The Oracles told Angel that a specific battle was coming that Buffy would fight for him that she would not survive (in IWRY). This was arguably The Scourge.

Hmm, interesting theory. Why do you think the Oracles were specifically referring to the Scourge, I never surmised that before.

I think we can both agree, then, that Spike is a competitor for the title as he can fit the criteria. We just disagree on who wants it (more).

However, I do wanna ask people a question or two. Four: What does Angel loose if he does not get Shanshu? What does he gain if he does? What does Spike loose if he does not get the Shanshu? What does he gain if he does?

As far as Angel, I agree with what Kean says. I also don't discount his desire for love. He experienced love for the first time with Buffy, but we all know where the physical manifestation of that led. No, I don't think he wants to be human simply so that he can have sex, but I'm sure a part of him wants to be able to give himself & be accepted fully by a woman he loves in that way. Wesley said that 99% of the time that wouldn't happen, but why should he take that chance? Sure, he sleeps with Nina, but we all know that isn't true love (at least at that point in time). As a cursed, souled vampire, I'm not sure he can ever allow his heart to fully love. In short, I think there are a variety of reasons he wants to Shanshu.

I am really unsure whether Spike wants it. I don't think he ever even considered the possibility of becoming human again before landing at W&H with Angel. But I don't agree that Spike doesn't care about atonement/redemption. I think he cares more than he lets on. He just doesn't express it, it's not his way. The Spangel moment at the end of Damage reveals to us that in a lot of ways, life was really, really unfair to both of them. They were both young, and had kinda crappy, unfulfilled lives at that point. They were killed & sired and turned into monsters who had little control over their actions (hunt, kill, feed). It's a short scene, but incredibly poignant (of course I think there are other ATS s5 examples of Spike's thoughts/feelings about his actions, and atonement):

SPIKE
Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off.

ANGEL: A lot of pain?

SPIKE: More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

ANGEL: I didn't say that.

SPIKE: No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL: I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.

SPIKE: What happens to her?

ANGEL: I don't know. Um, Andrew and the slayers took her. Didn't trust us to help her.

SPIKE: Andrew double-crossed us? That's a good move. Hope for the little ponce yet. Though the tingling in my forearms tells me she's too far gone to help. She's...one of us now. She's a monster.

ANGEL: She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE: So were we.. once upon a time.

ANGEL: Once upon a time.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

"Destiny", Ats S5: They both fight, almost to the death, to get the cup that will turn one of them into human being. They both seem to want it so bad.

BUT! Do they even want to be humans? Or is the only reason they want it is so they could be with Buffy?

I agree that there is no indication that Spike dislikes being a vampire; rather, he delights in the destruction he causes and loves the physical abilities that come with being superhuman.

Spike fighting Angel in "Destiny" was more about beating Angel at something or taking something from him, then it was about Spike wanting to be human.