Episode Discussion 1.07 "Echoes" - Aired 3/27/09 (FOX-U.S.)

[Primal Slayer]

I LOVED this episode, just sooo funny and greatly dramatic at the same time. The show has totally hit its prime and I hope it keeps going strong from here.

 

[atticus]

I was looking forward to seeing some glimpses of Caroline. I thought it would help me be more interested in Echo. It didn't. I'm just not getting that character at all. There was a huge improvement in the previous episode, but now it's back to the same. And her links to this Rossum thing, didn't interest me at all. It's a shame. I find her and Ballard increasingly boring. 🙁
I am more interested in the other characters, they seem to be carrying the show. Sierra, Boyd, Victor, Topher, Dominic, Adelle. All on fine form, as usual. Especially Topher and Adelle. Very funny.

 

[TabulaRasa]

I am still cracking up!!!

 

[luckystar]

I stand alone so didnt like it at all, found it unfunny and some of the acting was a little poor im just still not getting the show so well maybe im just slow its all going to fast and i still dont know whats what, liked the glimpse into the real echo or caroline as shes called though shes an animal lover so was liking that but thats it, preferred last week.

 

[November]

Hehe what a great ep for a laugh! At first I thought that the drug was released by Alpha but now Im realising there is so many other things besides just Alpha and Ballard vs the Dollhouse. I liked that Caroline was linked to the Rossum company, and I got the impression that they got a few of their actives from that college/area too, is it close by? Or are the types of people they want to recruit as actives attracted to courses or opportunities it offers? Im probably stretching but my mind was going wild with theories and trying to work it out. I havent got round to reading the other threads in this section yet so Im sorry if Im repeating what others have said.

Adelle and Topher were entertaining, I LMAO at Topher standing in his underwear 😛 Dominic and Boyd were funny too, I love seeing people loose their inhibitions and the things that they say and do (well not the dangerous things but its still fun to watch on tv). I was also disappointed in the resolution, it was kinda 'blah' like they used up all the good stuff in the first half of the show or something. But then again, I really duno how else they could have fixed it all, bar writing Willow in to magically make it disappear.

I would have also liked to have seen more of the flashbacks of the other actives as well. And did Sierra actually shoot Victor or did they just make it look like that? I've only seen it once thru so I didnt pick it up. I expected November/Mellie to have to return to the dollhouse again at some stage, they definitely cant afford to have her glitch in front of Paul so I figured they were making sure all is in order and giving her a break or something. Hes not a threat to them at this stage anyway.

I do like Echo more and more, she seems to have a personality to me that is not exactly like Caroline but continues thru her other imprints... I dont think I am explaining it well but I feel like Im getting to know her even though there isnt really a 'her' to get to know. Did Topher and that figure out that she was glitching as Alice? Before she was exposed to the drug? I do want to find out why Adelle likes her so much too, I really like Adelle and Im even warming to Dominic after this ep hehe. All up I think last week was better, but this was a real fun ep and again I look forward to the next one 😀

 

[entropy]

I absolutely loved the episode, specially the Topher & Adelle interaction, they really cracked me up :happy07:

I think is really clever the way they're exposing the info about the lives of the characters, previous to the dollhouse. IMO and for what I could make out of this past epi the dolls seem to be really troubled personas, they all have some emotional issue going on, so strong that it makes it perfect for the organization to get them into the game under their own will. Take for instance Echo and the suffering she's been through or that new guy (future doll) and how he is in need of a better life for his mother; we could also see a pretty traumatic experience for Victor, in some kind of war or fire.

I'm currently loving the show completely and for me it's only getting better and better!!

 

[fly on the wall]

Anyways, Echo said no when he suggested going for her treatment the first time, but agreed the second. Wonder why? Anyone know why she went back on it and said yes? Did too much go on in her mind that she got too confused and was ready to have it? Lots of wonders. Maybe the first time Boyd asked her she could sense that things weren't really 'right' with him since the liquid magic was moving through his body? And she didn't have that connection at the time?! We'll see.

So yeah, awesome episode. I have more to say but my brain is all over the place right now!

I think it's because the first time around, Echo had stuff to do. Pressing, important stuff, and for the first time she was able to choose something important over her treatment. She's gaining strength, it seems. The second time, she was very distressed. She had just remembered and re-lived the moment as Caroline, when her boyfriend got shot and died in front of her. Again, I saw this moment as a choice: She wanted to forget. She wanted to be wiped of this memory, and that's why she said yes.

That's how I viewed it, anyway.

Oh, and I <3 Victor. I'm developing a bit of a crush on him, I think. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

And for Mellie to leave so soon...I was really liking her character and was sad when I saw her standing in the hallway with her baggage.

Wasn't there some mention in the first or second episode about there being a limit as to just how long that a doll could remain implanted before the programming began to fail? That would explain why she had to leave when she did. Either that or she needed to have her initial programming modified because of the activation of the "flowers in the vase..." trigger. Either way, it's pretty certain that she'll be back.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Because I was pretty much attacked because of my opinion of the last episode, I decided to play fair and give another episode a chance.

My opinion still stands.

The two guys in the offices (Xander with Brains and Giles in a Skirt - l forget the actual names) just didn't make me laugh at all. I guess thats because I'm not a fan of these characters like you guys, but I DID laugh a couple of times in Firefly as much as I disliked that show.

Echo's history is that she's an animal rights activist?
BORING!

The whole plot was tiresome with the black guy obviously being the guy that caused it all from the moment he offered to help Echo.

The ONLY interesting point was the fact that Helo was willing to let the Doll-he-doesn't-knows-a-doll die in his pirsuit of the Truth.

 

[fly on the wall]

The two guys in the offices (Xander with Brains and Giles in a Skirt - l forget the actual names)

You got a Xander and Giles vibe from these characters? That's pretty shocking, honestly. Topher couldn't be less Xander, IMO, except that maybe they're both a little nerdy. And what on Earth do Giles and Adelle have in common, other than they're both British? ???
It seems, with statements like that, that you're clamoring to find reasons to dislike the show and chalk it up as an unoriginal, re-processed Joss idea, when it's really not. Maybe that's why you felt "attacked" last time.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Not everyone will like every show on TV. But it's off-putting to see someone going into a show already disliking it, then watching episodes merely as proof as to why the show sucks.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

You got a Xander and Giles vibe from these characters? That's pretty shocking, honestly. Topher couldn't be less Xander, IMO, except that maybe they're both a little nerdy. And what on Earth do Giles and Adelle have in common, other than they're both British? ???
It seems, with statements like that, that you're clamoring to find reasons to dislike the show and chalk it up as an unoriginal, re-processed Joss idea, when it's really not. Maybe that's why you felt "attacked" last time.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Not everyone will like every show on TV. But it's off-putting to see someone going into a show already disliking it, then watching episodes merely as proof as to why the show sucks.

See here is where your point falls short - I've already had someone on this board agree with me!

But thats by the by - so its off-putting is it.
You plan to not watch the show because I dislike it and verbalise my dislike?
Or are you just making silly statments?

I didn't 'feel' attacked, I was. My opinion is my opinion and its as valid as the ones that seem to be fawning over this show like its fried gold - which it isn't.

I don't mind people giving me reasons why my opinion is wrong, but yet I am to see one that will.

Interestingly it was suggested to me to watch another episode to see if I changed my mind, I haven't, in fact the episode reinforced my position.

In your world, maybe you go can't disassociate yourself but we're not the same person. I went in as I did last time, as prepared to enjoy the show as possible with the bias I had already worked up - and I would bet all the money I have that I am alot more open-minded on that than most of you guys would be.

Also, my comparisons, I'm not gonna argue that with you - I said there were similarities between this show and something else last time and it pissed of numerous people, even though I gave strong links.

You guys are as blinded as I am, so don't try and paint me as some close-minded fool when you're all doing exactly the same, if not worse, because at least I have shown, twice, how willing I am to see the other side of the argument!

 

[fly on the wall]

See here is where your point falls short - I've already had someone on this board agree with me!

Someone agreed that they didn't find them funny...that's hardly agreeing that Adelle is like Giles and Topher is like Xander.

But thats by the by - so its off-putting is it.
You plan to not watch the show because I dislike it and verbalise my dislike?
Or are you just making silly statments?

I was merely explaining why people may have attacked you. And I didn't mean they had been off-put from watching the show; they had been off-put from seeing your points.

I don't mind people giving me reasons why my opinion is wrong, but yet I am to see one that will.

Of course your opinion can't be proven wrong...it's an opinion.

Interestingly it was suggested to me to watch another episode to see if I changed my mind, I haven't, in fact the episode reinforced my position.

You can act like you watched the show with an open mind, to see if you could enjoy it..but honestly, it seems like you watched it for more ammunition for your dislike. That may not be true, I don't know. That's how it appears, though. With the bias you admittedly had built up before watching the show, it's pretty impossible that you watched it honestly to see if you enjoyed it. And there's nothing wrong with that, you don't have to enjoy the show.
Yes, most of us went into the show with our own biases. Me personally, I thought Dollhouse looked interesting. I expected to like it, of course I did - the trailers looked good and I expect a lot out of Joss. Plus, I don't normally sit down to watch shows I expect to hate. However, I liked the show more than I thought I would. I dislike parts of it too, and I'm honest about those parts. I don't treat it as fried gold. Lumping everyone who likes Dollhouse together in one group is pretty ignorant, actually.

You guys are as blinded as I am, so don't try and paint me as some close-minded fool when you're all doing exactly the same, if not worse, because at least I have shown, twice, how willing I am to see the other side of the argument!

How exactly could any of us see the other side of the argument? Refuse to watch the show and bitch about it? I never once said you couldn't have your opinion or that you had to like the show; in both of my posts now, I have repeatedly said that you have a right to your opinion. Nor did I use the words "close-minded" or "fool."

My last post was merely to suggest a reasoning behind the people that attacked you.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Someone agreed that they didn't find them funny...that's hardly agreeing that Adelle is like Giles and Topher is like Xander.

Actually, I wasn't referring to Luckystar.
Had I been, I would have said the name. I was having a conversation with another member who agreed with me. The reason I haven't dropped the name is because that was part of his opinion also BUT there were other things we didn't agree on and its not my place to post someone elses!

So, again, someone on this board agrees with me - thank you very much.

I was merely explaining why people may have attacked you. And I didn't mean they had been off-put from watching the show; they had been off-put from seeing your points.

So you admit you were making silly statements. Thats fine, its the first step into admitting you're not great at debate 😛
I, however, don't need you to explain things like that to me, because I have the cognitive capacity to work out certain things - but thanks!

Of course your opinion can't be proven wrong...it's an opinion.

Of course opinions can be proven wrong - granted not all, but some, with reasons arguments can show why someones opinion is wrong.

Heck, racism and homophobia are nothing more than opinion. Granted they are extreme cases, but opinion none the less and they are VERY wrong and provable why.

You can act like you watched the show with an open mind, to see if you could enjoy it..but honestly, it seems like you watched it for more ammunition for your dislike. That may not be true, I don't know. That's how it appears, though. With the bias you admittedly had built up before watching the show, it's pretty impossible that you watched it honestly to see if you enjoyed it. And there's nothing wrong with that, you don't have to enjoy the show.
Yes, most of us went into the show with our own biases. Me personally, I thought Dollhouse looked interesting. I expected to like it, of course I did - the trailers looked good and I expect a lot out of Joss. Plus, I don't normally sit down to watch shows I expect to hate. However, I liked the show more than I thought I would. I dislike parts of it too, and I'm honest about those parts. I don't treat it as fried gold. Lumping everyone who likes Dollhouse together in one group is pretty ignorant, actually.

I don't need you to tell me why I watched a show.
I certainly do not appreciate you suggesting I am a liar.
As I said before, I had worked up an equally big bias towards Doctor Horrible, and came out liking that.
Just because you don't have the ability to view something and comment on its actual merits rather than just based on your bias, doesn't mean everyone is like that.
I am just showing the same level of ignorance that is being shown on the boards regarding this show - it amuses me greatly that you're offended by that!

How exactly could any of us see the other side of the argument? Refuse to watch the show and bitch about it? I never once said you couldn't have your opinion or that you had to like the show; in both of my posts now, I have repeatedly said that you have a right to your opinion. Nor did I use the words "close-minded" or "fool."

The first part of this makes no sense.
The way you see the other side of an argument is acknowledge that there is a possibility they are correct - unless there is absolute fact to prove otherwise.
Alot of the fans of this show really don't see the other side, they stick to their own limited view.

I have countless times said that this show is not for me, but I have also said that I can understand why others like it - heck I've even argued positively about aspects of it.

You don't have to use the terms 'close-minded' or 'fool' to imply them and your entire post was laden with the suggestion that I was closed to the possibility of liking the show.
You may find thats how you work through your limited ways, but not everyone is like you.

 

[fly on the wall]

Actually, I wasn't referring to Luckystar.
Had I been, I would have said the name. I was having a conversation with another member who agreed with me. The reason I haven't dropped the name is because that was part of his opinion also BUT there were other things we didn't agree on and its not my place to post someone elses!

So, again, someone on this board agrees with me - thank you very much.

Okay? So someone agrees with you. I'm going to quote myself here:
"Topher couldn't be less Xander, IMO, except that maybe they're both a little nerdy. And what on Earth do Giles and Adelle have in common, other than they're both British?"
Note the use of the phrase "in my opinion," as well as the question I posed as to how exactly Giles and Adelle are similar (other than their heritage). Also notice that nowhere did I say "YOU'RE WRONG, NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU!!!"

So you admit you were making silly statements. Thats fine, its the first step into admitting you're not great at debate 😛
I, however, don't need you to explain things like that to me, because I have the cognitive capacity to work out certain things - but thanks!

.....then why didn't you work out that certain thing the first time around? We clearly have different opinions on what makes someone a good debater.
Jumping the gun and calling someone's points "silly statements" at your first opportunity does not scream "good debater" in my opinion. But again, we'll probably disagree there.

Of course opinions can be proven wrong - granted not all, but some, with reasons arguments can show why someones opinion is wrong.

Heck, racism and homophobia are nothing more than opinion. Granted they are extreme cases, but opinion none the less and they are VERY wrong and provable why.

Okay...those opinions can be proven wrong in the minds of the people disagreeing with them...but try convincing a true racist or homophobe that their opinion is wrong.
If you have a belief, you'd be hard-pressed to be "proven wrong." That's obvious.
Macaroni and cheese is delicious. That's my opinion. You can't prove that my opinion is wrong, because I think that macaroni and cheese is delicious. Yeah?

I don't need you to tell me why I watched a show.
I certainly do not appreciate you suggesting I am a liar.

Holy jumping-to-exaggerated-conclusions, Batman.

Just because you don't have the ability to view something and comment on its actual merits rather than just based on your bias, doesn't mean everyone is like that.

*rolls eyes* Okay.

You don't have to use the terms 'close-minded' or 'fool' to imply them and your entire post was laden with the suggestion that I was closed to the possibility of liking the show.
You may find thats how you work through your limited ways, but not everyone is like you.

Your attacks on my character are laughable, really.
It's a show, man. You've already made it clear that you like to argue, and hey, so do I, but seriously? This is gonna go nowhere.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Okay? So someone agrees with you. I'm going to quote myself here:
"Topher couldn't be less Xander, IMO, except that maybe they're both a little nerdy. And what on Earth do Giles and Adelle have in common, other than they're both British?"
Note the use of the phrase "in my opinion," as well as the question I posed as to how exactly Giles and Adelle are similar (other than their heritage). Also notice that nowhere did I say "YOU'RE WRONG, NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU!!!"

OK, I'ma go ahead and quote you too.

Someone agreed that they didn't find them funny...that's hardly agreeing that Adelle is like Giles and Topher is like Xander.

This is you clearly calling me on the 'someone has agreed with me' because you haven't seen it - I merely told you where and how someone agreed with me.

.....then why didn't you work out that certain thing the first time around? We clearly have different opinions on what makes someone a good debater.
Jumping the gun and calling someone's points "silly statements" at your first opportunity does not scream "good debater" in my opinion. But again, we'll probably disagree there.

Work what out the first time around?
Yes, I believe a good debater is someone that can see and acknolwedge both sides of an argument but still present and back up their own view!

The 'silly statement' was referring to 'off-putting' nothing more.
The fact I added a fun smilie, which is the universal internet sign for 'having a joke' also adds to that.

Okay...those opinions can be proven wrong in the minds of the people disagreeing with them...but try convincing a true racist or homophobe that their opinion is wrong.
If you have a belief, you'd be hard-pressed to be "proven wrong." That's obvious.
Macaroni and cheese is delicious. That's my opinion. You can't prove that my opinion is wrong, because I think that macaroni and cheese is delicious. Yeah?

I have done sweety -a couple of times.
One of my favourite times was when I was working with this 15 year old boy (I was helping him) and his parents were truly homophobic. He came out to them, and thanks to a few sessions that involved PLENTY of facts, they came to accept their son and his way of life and now, they are perfectly fine with it.
I could take that macaroni and cheese, I could make a variant that tastes so bad you could never like it again.
The food one is generally solved by peoples abilities - for instance I know people whose opinions of food have been dire and have hated a food for whatever reason, but when someone has cooked it for them, they've tasted it and its changed their opinion - woah, did I just say that?

Holy jumping-to-exaggerated-conclusions, Batman.

How is that an exaggeration?
I claim to do something - you tell me "it's pretty impossible that you watched it honestly" which is contrary to what I said.
Ergo, you called me a liar.

Your attacks on my character are laughable, really.
It's a show, man. You've already made it clear that you like to argue, and hey, so do I, but seriously? This is gonna go nowhere.

Erm not to sound all playground, but you started it.

I gave my opinion THEN I gave reasons why.
I made further points about why I think this BUT included a 'why everyone is like this' comment.
You took it personally and started back at me.

I do like to debate, but it is getting tedious that others start down a road and because I refuse let them get away with it, they like to paint me as the villain.
I have no issue with you, the fact I was kind enough to alert you to something on your wall shows this.

 

[fly on the wall]

How is that an exaggeration?
I claim to do something - you tell me "it's pretty impossible that you watched it honestly" which is contrary to what I said.
Ergo, you called me a liar.

I said, "it's pretty impossible that you watched it honestly to see if you enjoyed it." Not that you watched it honestly in general. It's pretty impossible that anyone with strong convictions and/or biases tests their biases expecting it to change...they test their bias to prove themselves right, even if they don't think they are. That was not an attack on you, it was a general statement that, granted, may not apply to you at all.
I'll just say this...during debates that I've noticed, you tend to get personal very quickly, and super-defensive more quickly than that. Also (though this might not be your intention) your use of smilies and pet names seems more patronizing than friendly. Of course, that's more to blame on the internet than you personally...it's sometimes difficult to read peoples' tones, etc, in text. Basically what I'm trying to say is, it's how you say things (or how the things you say come off), not the exact words you say. I don't feel as though I'm "painting you as a villain" or somehow negating the "blame" or whatever of this argument onto you. I don't have anything against you either.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

While this episode certainly did not live up to last week's, it was a veary humorous one. I especially enjoyed the scenes between Adelle and Topher, not only because I like both characters, but because it gave them such a mother-son like relationship and it was funny to see Adelle go extremely out of character and act like a child.

I liked seeing more of Echo/Caroline's and Adelle's conversation, and generally, Echo's past. The death of Leo was really sad, and they were so cute together. It was nice seeing that she had a really good and happy relationship in the past, and how he did so many things for her.

Mellie and Paul had to end, and it was sad, but I think that the writers wrote it very well and didn't make it awkward or strange.

I really liked Victor in this episode, it was enjoyable seeing him take charge and his interaction with Dominic in this episode was lots of fun. I do have a question, though. We saw that Sierra got raped, was she not only raped by Hearn, but someone else before she came to the Dollhouse?

Boyd was hilarious in this episode, especially when he started playing the piano and Adelle and Topher held the phone and started laughing and patting each other.

I felt bad for November when she was glitching and remembering about Paul and Hearn. The facial expressions that Adelle and Topher had were hilarious, they were really cute and just looked so adorable. I do have another question, which is since their clothes were in disarray, did they get it on? That would be really weird, but not unexpected if it actually had happened.

When Adelle recruited Sam for the Dollhouse, it was nice seeing her get back to normal with her position as boss.

All in all, it was definitely the "Spin the Bottle"/"Tabula Rasa" of the show, and was very enjoyable.

 

[Randy Giles]

Rewatched the episode today, and I freaking loved it even more. It was hilarious. I hate Topher, I think he's an unlikable jackass, but he and Adelle were definitely one of the top highlights of the episode.

I also think Echo is developing nicely as a character, despite the fact that she's different people all the time, and I think the imprints are also going to change who Caroline is as a person in the long run, which I find really interesting. I think the writers have done an amazing job with *all* the actives, actually, and I get more invested in them each week, so I no longer buy into the "you can't like a character who has a different personality each week" thing.

I think Alice is an excellent imprint, hope she's recurring. I think she will be.

And next week? Holy. CRAP! If all the dolls are going back to their original personalities I'm assuming this is how the writers are going to try to get us more invested in them as people, so we'll be more concerned about them. But I'm guessing by the end of the episode they'll be blank again...for a while.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yes, I agree that this was definitely the Band Candy, Tabula Rasa, or Spin the Bottle of the series. Ironic and silly in typical Joss style. Yet, despite it's silly humor, some important developments were learned from this episode. For instance, that Victor and Sierra had some sort of connection pre them becoming Dolls. (He saved her? He was a firefighter? Wasn't too clear on that.) It's been hinted that they might have a connection, so no surprise there.

Also, I'd like to comment on this somewhat commen thread of Topher being compared to Xander. I completely disagree. I don't feel he fills the role of Xander at all. Sure, he's funny, and sorta nerdy (but in a totally different way than Xander) but their places in the show are very different. I think people want to compare him to Xander because he's cuteish and kinda socially enept - but really, they're not similar in my opinion. Actually, I'm sort of struggling with a love/hate relationship with Topher right now. He has something dark in him I can't really place. Plus, he's pretty condesending to the Dolls. He's obviously smart and witty, he there's something that bothers me about him. He seems to be becoming a popular character, though. I love him because he does make me laugh I admit but....Maybe I'm in the minority.

And...did we get some sort of hint with a love connection thingy with Adelle and Topher? That would be rad. Maybe it's just my wishful thinking. Everyone seems to be rooting for a Claire/Topher pairing...but I can see him and Adelle getting together as much as the aformentioned couple.

Boyd is getting very interesting; who knew he could play the piano? Awesome.

Mellie is gone?? Bummer. I'm curious what the deal is there. Is she coming back? What does the Dollhouse think of this? It seemed like she was just going off to stay with a friend for a while after what happened I think she was pretty shaken up. I'm bummed out because Mellie/Paul was totally my new fave ship. *sighs When does a relationship ever turn out in the Whedonverse, anyhow? Someone always leaves or cheats or dies or whatnot....

Great episode. I'm excited for tomorrow!

 

[Revolver]

I actually didn't think it was nearly as good as any of those Buffy/Angel episodes mentioned, but my feelings towards this show have been mixed, at best.