1984 (Big Brother)

[Vamp Jenny]

To anyone who has read George Orwell's 1984 (and anyone interested in politics and surveilance(sp??) in general), I have some questions for you. I am in the middle of the book, readin about the Fraternity's description of what is Big Brother and how the society really works. Now I'm really glad they put chapters of the Fraternity's book in the story, because it really helps understanding the society Winston lives in.

Here are my questions:
-By constantly making sure that the people get their feelings out each day (daily 2 minutes of hate), do you really think the "government" can suppress their basic instincts?

-Forgetting about the consequences and the parallels of this society with what we know of communism, is Big Brother and its constant (almost fake) war a better way of living than the stages we are used to live in (superiorclass, middle class, poor class)?

I know, big discussion, I just wonder (and I can't talk about it with peopel I know because apparently I'm the only who has ever heard of that book......)

 

[dexeded]

Ooh, 1984! I read that when I was studying Animal Farm, because I thought Animal Farm was really really boring. 1984 is so much better, though it does drag on in parts. So I haven't actually studied it in school per se, but here's my casual reader opinion.

-By constantly making sure that the people get their feelings out each day (daily 2 minutes of hate), do you really think the "government" can suppress their basic instincts?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by basic instincts...? But in any case, I think Two Minutes Hate is more to provide an outlet for hate towards some kind of authoritative entity, which is Goldstein in this case, the Party's enemy, so the people are distracted by the common enemy rather than look into the Party's own flaws.

-Forgetting about the consequences and the parallels of this society with what we know of communism, is Big Brother and its constant (almost fake) war a better way of living than the stages we are used to live in (superiorclass, middle class, poor class)?
No. Freedom, as always, is better than a dystopia. Besides, 1984 also has classes in itself--Party members and proles. In real life, war has actually been used time and time again to distract from a country's economic/political situation, a means of using external conflict to minimize internal conflict (like the invasion of the Falkland islands). Have the people unite in the face of a common enemy, all patriotic-like. And it never turns out for the best. Thousands will get killed, soldiers and civilians. Resources will run out. Perpetual war... not a good thing for society as a whole, only good for the ruling party.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

Ooh, 1984! I read that when I was studying Animal Farm, because I thought Animal Farm was really really boring. 1984 is so much better, though it does drag on in parts. So I haven't actually studied it in school per se, but here's my casual reader opinion.

-By constantly making sure that the people get their feelings out each day (daily 2 minutes of hate), do you really think the "government" can suppress their basic instincts?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by basic instincts...? But in any case, I think Two Minutes Hate is more to provide an outlet for hate towards some kind of authoritative entity, which is Goldstein in this case, the Party's enemy, so the people are distracted by the common enemy rather than look into the Party's own flaws.

well at one point Goldstein's book goes on about how the daily 2 minutes of hate help keep members of the Party in line and make sure they don't have any personnal emotion that wouldn't follow what Big Brother is teaching. That's what I meant by instincts (i.e.: sexuality).

-Forgetting about the consequences and the parallels of this society with what we know of communism, is Big Brother and its constant (almost fake) war a better way of living than the stages we are used to live in (superiorclass, middle class, poor class)?
No. Freedom, as always, is better than a dystopia. Besides, 1984 also has classes in itself--Party members and proles. In real life, war has actually been used time and time again to distract from a country's economic/political situation, a means of using external conflict to minimize internal conflict (like the invasion of the Falkland islands). Have the people unite in the face of a common enemy, all patriotic-like. And it never turns out for the best. Thousands will get killed, soldiers and civilians. Resources will run out. Perpetual war... not a good thing for society as a whole, only good for the ruling party.

I agree with you on the fact that Freedom is better. But the war depicted in 1984 does not kill thousands of people. It is a war of machines that goes on mostly for inhabited territories. Much like the silent war that goes on right now between North America and Russia for land beyond the Arctic circle, but with weapons. The sole countries/cities that get touched by said war know nothing but that style of life. For what they know, they've always been in the middle of a war and they always will be.
As for resources, Goldstein says (and it is shown all along the story), that they are restricted for the Exterior Party members and proles in a way that ensures them to last. And if a resource is not available anymore (let's say wine, for example), all that was ever written about that resource disappears, making it seem like it never existed. The population being used to go day by day without needing permanent memory (for that History is constantly re-written), they forget they ever knew said resource. If they never knew it, they never needed it...

It's really scary when you think about it... A life without chocolate and wine O_O (lol)

Also, do you think Big Brother and Oceania could be compared to a cult? Godstein does compare the Angsoc (is it the word in English too? I'm reading it in French) to the Catholic church at one point... I do find it close to a very strict version of the church...

 

[dexeded]

well at one point Goldstein's book goes on about how the daily 2 minutes of hate help keep members of the Party in line and make sure they don't have any personnal emotion that wouldn't follow what Big Brother is teaching. That's what I meant by instincts (i.e.: sexuality).

I think it would help, but it wouldn't eliminate basic instincts 100%. But the Party does employ other methods of doing so, like Newspeak and constant surveillance.

I agree with you on the fact that Freedom is better. But the war depicted in 1984 does not kill thousands of people. It is a war of machines that goes on mostly for inhabited territories. Much like the silent war that goes on right now between North America and Russia for land beyond the Arctic circle, but with weapons. The sole countries/cities that get touched by said war know nothing but that style of life. For what they know, they've always been in the middle of a war and they always will be.
As for resources, Goldstein says (and it is shown all along the story), that they are restricted for the Exterior Party members and proles in a way that ensures them to last. And if a resource is not available anymore (let's say wine, for example), all that was ever written about that resource disappears, making it seem like it never existed. The population being used to go day by day without needing permanent memory (for that History is constantly re-written), they forget they ever knew said resource. If they never knew it, they never needed it...

It's really scary when you think about it... A life without chocolate and wine O_O (lol)

Ah, it's been a while since I read 1984, so I forget the details... In any case, even with the people and resources left not destroyed, the situation still really only benefits the Party. It's a very scary dystopian future, not a Jasmine-like dystopia (which still has rampant happiness, though it's brainwashed happiness). Even the future in The Giver is better than 1984.

Also, do you think Big Brother and Oceania could be compared to a cult? Godstein does compare the Angsoc (is it the word in English too? I'm reading it in French) to the Catholic church at one point... I do find it close to a very strict version of the church...

It's Ingsoc in the English version. I would agree with the church analogy, if it were one of those super strict extremist churches. I suppose it is cult-like to a certain degree, but only if everyone (or a large majority) truly believes in the Party and is not staying silent out of fear. It's hard to tell who exactly fully supports the Party and who doesn't. But the inclusion of a concept like thoughtcrime seems to indicate that most would be completely loyal to the Party, or very very good at fooling others as well as themselves.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

Other question (because I just love your thoughts on this subject 😉 ):

When Winston is tortured by the Party, O'Brien tells him nothing the humans don't think about is real (i.e.: if they think the Earth is the center of the universe, then it is), kinda like the scientific question of sound in a deserted forrest (if water drops in a forrest but no one is there to ear it, does it really make any sound). What do you think about it. To a certain extend (because it's been proved times and times again that the Earth does rotate around the sun adn is only a small part of the universe), is it possible that what we believe as humans is what creates some things?

I guess for some things it's believable, like God... But to what else could it apply??

 

[dexeded]

Other question (because I just love your thoughts on this subject 😉 ):

When Winston is tortured by the Party, O'Brien tells him nothing the humans don't think about is real (i.e.: if they think the Earth is the center of the universe, then it is), kinda like the scientific question of sound in a deserted forrest (if water drops in a forrest but no one is there to ear it, does it really make any sound). What do you think about it. To a certain extend (because it's been proved times and times again that the Earth does rotate around the sun adn is only a small part of the universe), is it possible that what we believe as humans is what creates some things?

I guess for some things it's believable, like God... But to what else could it apply??

Haha, this is a two person thread.

I don't agree with O'Brien, because he's basically extending the whole 'changing the past' thing the Party has going. But to a limited degree, he is right (like in your example of God). I mean, there are many human concepts in this world that would not exist without our thinking, but those are all the intangibles, like love or, arguably, a moral system. O'Brien's point reminds me of solipsism (link to Wikipedia), which is that you cannot be sure anything exists other than your own mind (or out of your own mind). This entire universe or world could be just something you made up and you have no way to prove otherwise. You have no way to prove otherwise, but you also have no way to prove solipsism right. (Obviously I am not a solipsist.) It also reminds me of a quote from a movie I just watched (Memento. Really great movie by Christopher Nolan). The movie is about a man who has anterograde amnesia, which is kind of like short term memory loss--he can only fully remember up till the point of his wife's murder, and cannot create/retain any memories of his own for more than a few minutes after that. The quote is "I have to believe in a world outside my own mind". You can't determine whether anything really is real (such as the past), but you have to believe.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

Funny you shall talk about solipsism, because O'Brien mentions it too.

And the way you just described it made me realize, it's almost like Buffy in Normal Again (couldn't have a full conversation without talking about Buffy!!😉), because the psychiatrist - just like O'Brien, but without the torture - is trying to convince her that Sunnydale and all she knows of her life is made up.

Memento sounds quite good. I'll see if I can give it a try 🙂

We should start a book discussion club 😀