Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Oh. I see. I thought they started to lose the imprint but that makes sense when coupled with Saunders.
Episode Discussion 2.01 "Vows" - Aired 9/25/09 (FOX-US)
- Thread starter Buffy Summers
- Start date
Misty
♥
OMG, I watched it yesturday live, it was good, I thought it was really funny how Dr. Saunders put mice in Tofer's cabinet, and I think that her and Tofer are kind of cute together!
As a massive Battlestar Galactica fan, I had quite the fangasm seeing Tahmoh Penikett and Jamie Bamber on screen together. I like to think that Jamie's line when he sees Agent Ballard at the airport - "Now this is getting surreal." - was a tiny shout out to all the BSG fans. And it certainly was surreal, seeing Apollo and Helo fighting. On land. In the present day.
Anyhoo as for the episode itself, I enjoyed it. It set the tone nicely and was a great way to ease everyone back into things.
Anyhoo as for the episode itself, I enjoyed it. It set the tone nicely and was a great way to ease everyone back into things.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
Fusions2
Stark Industries Employee
Overall a good episode for a season opener. I wasn't too thrilled watching it apart from when it got near the end and Echo went all kung fu and seriously kicked butt. Loved that and when she revealed she remembered everything and needed help finding everyone again. I can't wait to see how that plays out. Loved Dr Saunders trying to cope with everything she now knows and then leaving at the end of the episode, I hope we see her soon in season 2 to find out more on her story.
faeriegrrl27
Resident Jew
I'd be really mad if Topher and Saunders get together. They're dynamic is fascinating and an intricate relationship is definitely building and, yeah, they'd be WAY hot, but... they're not romantic. There's hurt and hate and just general creepiness and both of them know it. It would just be icky!
About that Echo/Whiskey scene... the one with the, ahem, adult content, I can't figure it out. Was it Echo having a flashback to an assignment they were on together or was Echo having a fantasy? I think it would be a really crazy and AWESOME twist if that happened!
About that Echo/Whiskey scene... the one with the, ahem, adult content, I can't figure it out. Was it Echo having a flashback to an assignment they were on together or was Echo having a fantasy? I think it would be a really crazy and AWESOME twist if that happened!
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I agree, I thought it was a flashback from a previous engagement. Perhaps both were hired by the same guy?
laianna
Potential
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2009
- Messages
- 203
Yeah, me too. During the flashback, she heard someone say her name and that's how she knew to call her Whiskey. Didn't even think of a fantasy... That would certainly be a weird angle. =P
Washburne
Protector of the key.
Alexis is american. But he's also lived in London for 13 years so to be sure how he sounds in real life you better watch an interview or something when he isn't a character. 😉
It was a solid episode, overall I really liked it. But it wasn't any of the best episodes.
Most interesting was the Topher / Saunders story. I hope we get to see more of Dr. Saunders, that she didn't leave for good.
Haven't read much spoilers so I'm not sure how often Amy Acker can/will appear.
Found it a bit strange that Ballard would use Echo like that to catch a weapon dealer.
Seems like he left all his high standards from last season in a minute, still have a hard time finding it believable.
I guess he realized that he failed to get her out of there, by choosing Mellie instead, but to start using her for his own benefit feels like a big step to me.
It was a way to keep an eye on her though... so perhaps after all...
/SK
Most interesting was the Topher / Saunders story. I hope we get to see more of Dr. Saunders, that she didn't leave for good.
Haven't read much spoilers so I'm not sure how often Amy Acker can/will appear.
Found it a bit strange that Ballard would use Echo like that to catch a weapon dealer.
Seems like he left all his high standards from last season in a minute, still have a hard time finding it believable.
I guess he realized that he failed to get her out of there, by choosing Mellie instead, but to start using her for his own benefit feels like a big step to me.
It was a way to keep an eye on her though... so perhaps after all...
/SK
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
The Topher and Saunders story was great. Cheers to her for finally getting out of the dollhouse. Ballard and Saunders interaction reminds me of Epitaph one. I'm not sure if I like where Paul and Echo's story is going since I've never been a fan of the sort of obsession he has for her. Overall, it was a good episode and I can't wait until next week!
LittleMissLikesToFight
Into Every Generation...
When Topher explained WHY Saunders/Whiskey had to hate him, it was such an "ah-ha" and brilliant moment.
I liked it. I liked that the last scene really set the course for what we are to expect this season. Still though, a little slow going and hope the pace picks up.
I liked it. I liked that the last scene really set the course for what we are to expect this season. Still though, a little slow going and hope the pace picks up.
Ivy trying to grab all the rats while Topher was on the railing was funny 🙂
I thought the episode was a little slow, I'm sad to say I even got a little bored in the middle. The whole thing was confusing to me, mostly when Paul starts hitting Echo over and over. It was a wha? moment. and than someobody said to me "if you hit her hard enough and say the right things she changes personalities." lol
Oh and in my last post I meant the interactions between Boyd and Saunders not Ballard. Hey, they both start with a B ok?! 😛
I thought the episode was a little slow, I'm sad to say I even got a little bored in the middle. The whole thing was confusing to me, mostly when Paul starts hitting Echo over and over. It was a wha? moment. and than someobody said to me "if you hit her hard enough and say the right things she changes personalities." lol
Oh and in my last post I meant the interactions between Boyd and Saunders not Ballard. Hey, they both start with a B ok?! 😛
I feel like I'm going to be the only one here, but I was really wasn't that enamoured with Amy's performance in this episode. I quite liked the whole Whiskey thing at the end of season one, simply finding out that she is in fact a doll, however I'm beginning to find the whole character of Claire a tad annoying and I'm kind over it...
I am so much more interested in Echo, Paul, Topher and Adele. I loved Echo in this episode, I think Eliza's performance was really convincing, I really enjoyed it. I like watching how Paul just doesn't know what the best thing to do is, but he just knows he wants to do right by Caroline.
And seriously, this episode solidified Topher as my favourite character. My heart went out to him so much in this episode. When I read that Topher was going to be more 'serious' I was a little worried that they'd lose some of their comic relief, but he's still got it 🙂
I am so much more interested in Echo, Paul, Topher and Adele. I loved Echo in this episode, I think Eliza's performance was really convincing, I really enjoyed it. I like watching how Paul just doesn't know what the best thing to do is, but he just knows he wants to do right by Caroline.
And seriously, this episode solidified Topher as my favourite character. My heart went out to him so much in this episode. When I read that Topher was going to be more 'serious' I was a little worried that they'd lose some of their comic relief, but he's still got it 🙂
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
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If I ever forget just why you suck, other than being in Raiden, I will always remember the above quote.
Flannen
Ahahaha! Shut yer face! :p
Kanazaka
Potential
I generally liked Amy's performance in this episode. Dr. Saunders/Whiskey's breakdown was a bit too showy, and the seduction might have been a bit much, but she nicely played off Franz/Topher's bewilderment. I don't agree with her assessment of herself, but I sympathized more with her than with Topher, since he didn't really give a convincing explanation as to why he designed Claire the way he did. I liked that Paul still wasn't willing to join the Dollhouse at the beginning of this episode, since that unwillingness was true to his character. But it wasn't until the end of the episode that I really cared about Echo, since I'm not a big fan of most of the personalities that the Dollhouse gives her. In last season, the only ones I really liked were the blind girl and the girl who goes camping with the crossbow killer. I've liked Boyd since the beginning, and I liked him in this episode, too. Overall, my favorite story thread in this episode was Paul's mission to thwart the would-be bomber and protect Echo/Caroline. I didn't see enough of the senator to form a very strong opinion, but it was nice to see Alexis back in a Joss Whedon show 🙂.
VOWS
The good;
How gorgeous is bride Eliza? May not have affected ED but made me go awwww! Everything about the Toper/Saunders relationship is fabulous. Love that way that when Khar catches Echo snooping in his desk she almost get's away with her explanation, she's very plausible.
The bad;
What the heck happened to Jamie Bamber's hair? He looks like he's one of the Four Seasons, I keep expecting him to break into 'Oh what a night'. Why does Khar just fire 2 shots at Echo when he has a pistol with 15? When the limo blows up you can clearly see it's nowhere near the airport.
Best line;
Dr Saunders; (of planting rats in Topher's cupboard) "Just dealing with some vermin"
plus
Dr Saunders; "They'll go over your head"
Boyd; "I'm very tall"
and
Topher; "You're human"
Dr Saunders; "Don't flatter yourself"
Packing heat; Echo uses a pistol taken from Khar's goons
Echo;8
Boyd; 8
Dominic; 9
Sierra; 4
Victor; 3
Ballard; 10
November; 1
Echo kissage;3 at her wedding
Kinky dinky;
One of Echo's previous clients was a TV newsreader with a splosh fetish (a desire for sex with people covered in food). We now have Dominatrix Echo in the opening titles each week, much like Buffy and Faith dancing just too damn sexy not to show again and again. Sierra's 50s Princess character likes to be tied up and spanked (so much for Adele's assertion that the actives aren't hired out as sexual submissives). Topher refers to 'deviant excitment'. I never thought Eliza could be more sexy than as the dominatrix but seeing her in her wedding night lingerie she's just stunning and you couldn't pick which you prefer, sugar or spice? (a remark you understand much better if you've seen Batman Forever). Dr Saunders puts on the lacy teddy and puts the moves on Topher. He seems to have erotic dreams about Fozzie bear which is a whole other level of kinky. Topher observes that he could easily have made a willing sex slave but Saunders counters that the real ultimate fantasy is to make someone who initially hated you love you.
Capt subtext;
Note Adele stroking Victor's scarred face, remebering their Miss Lonelyheart time together. Dr Saunders keeps her scars because although she knows she's a doll her physical imperfections make her unique amongst them. Echo's handler telling Paul 'You're the client' really hit's home. Echo flashbacks to her and Whiskey done up like Ava Gardener and about to get all kissy at a masked ball. To my shame the first time around I missed the idea that what triggers this memory for Echo is Dr Saunders giving her a gynecological exam implying they did a lot more than just kiss. Dr Saunder's assertion that the ultimate sex fantasy is to make the person who despises you love and desire you is possibly an allusion to Caroline/Echo, Rossum's greatest enemy surrendering to them and allowing them to turn her into their willing plaything, their's to use and humiliate as they wish for fun and profit. Question is did Topher make Saunder's hate him as an aspect of his own self-loathing?
Echo's remark of 'We are lost but we are not gone' may be an allusion to the whole Dollhouse situation.
Notches on the Dollhouse bedpost; Echo and Khar
Echo; 4 definite, 1 possible
November; 1
Ballard; 1
Victor; 1
Adele; 1
Sierra 1 possible
Topher; 1 possible
How'd they get away with that?
.Echo's husband hitting his wife is a true 'Jeez!' moment. He may be an evil arms dealer but even he seems ashamed when she accuses him of domestic abuse. Sierra's anti-Asian racism towards Ivy is also a little hard to take even if played for laughs.
This weeks fantasy;
We see Echo as a bride/undercover agent and Sierra in her Jackie O/Audrey Hepburn personality. Echo also slips back into Margeret from 'Haunted' and Alpha's 'Badland's' style girlfriend Briar Rose from the end of the last season.
Total number personalitites; one more for Echo, we've seen Sierra's personality before
Echo; 24
Sierra; 11
Victor; 7
November; 3
Total dolls;
8-Echo, Sierra, November, Victor, Mike, Tango, Alpha, Whiskey
Addy is a bit British;
Joss seems to have a thing for British authority figures
Topher is a bit geeky;
Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
Bondage; we don't see any but Sierra obviously has a thing for it
Sierra tied up; 1
Ballard; 1
Knocked out;
Echo; 2
November; 1
Sierra; 1
Victor; 1
Topher; 1
Kills; assuming they die when she shoots them Echo kills two of the arms dealer's henchmen.
Sierra; 2 kills
Echo; 3
November;1
Dolls injured;
Echo with a big old gash on her head and concussion
Happy hookers;
Echo is an undercover agent who wins her mark's confidence by actually having sex with him, the stuff of bad erotic thrillers (Undercover Heat anyone? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114786/ ) something that gives Ballard great moral angst.
Know the face? Alexis Denisoff, another Whedon hattrick
9 Whedon alumni-Mark Shepherd-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Amy Acker-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), walking action figure-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Eliza Dushku-3 (Buffy/Angel/Dollhouse), Jim Piddock-2 (Angel/Dollhouse), Gregg Henry-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Alan Tudyk-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Felicia Day-2(Dollhouse/Buffy), Alexis Denisoff-3 (Buffy, Angel and Dollhouse)
Guantanamo;
Paul says he no longer cares about due process
Fanfic;
Missing scenes;.
Reminds me off;
The way Topher has engineered Saunder's phobias to prevent her leaving the Dollhouse is reminiscent of The Truman Show. The idea that Dr Saunders is reluctant to get her original personality back as that will be akin to dying for her is similar to an ep of ST;Voyager where 2 characters are merged by a transporter accident. Echo clinging to the bonnet of the car reminds me of TJ Hooker who was prone to that.
Whedon cliches;
Breaking the programming;
The dolls are noticeably less zombie like and have more personality, I think that was one of the reasons people couldn't take to them in the first season.
Questions and observations;
Echo has a new handler but this is the only time we see him. As Joss says the lighting on the Dollhouse is very different. Topher sleeps at work which seems to be a common thing in the Dollhouse. I think I'm beginning to fall a little in love with Ivy, she's a character who keeps growing on me more and more. In reference to the Jonas Brothers do they mean they're Dollhouse clients or that customers hire the actives out to play their roles? Still weird to hear Jamie Bamber talk with his real accent. Adele knows about Echo's unique nature but wants to watch her develop. Echo's remark of the 'Honeymoon is over' may be her telling Paul that from now on things are only going to get harder for them. Shame we don't get more of Amy Acker, Alexis Denisof etc this season but not enough in the budget (perhaps why they dropped CC/Conor from the last season of Angel so that they could have fan-favourite Spike?). It seems Joss' favourite series is BSG. I love Adele's new hair. Everyone seems to be hitting the booze pretty hard, even Dr Saunders (whiskey?).
Marks out of 10; 7/10 good ep, Joss didn't expect to get a second season so this is a partial reboot for the show
The good;
How gorgeous is bride Eliza? May not have affected ED but made me go awwww! Everything about the Toper/Saunders relationship is fabulous. Love that way that when Khar catches Echo snooping in his desk she almost get's away with her explanation, she's very plausible.
The bad;
What the heck happened to Jamie Bamber's hair? He looks like he's one of the Four Seasons, I keep expecting him to break into 'Oh what a night'. Why does Khar just fire 2 shots at Echo when he has a pistol with 15? When the limo blows up you can clearly see it's nowhere near the airport.
Best line;
Dr Saunders; (of planting rats in Topher's cupboard) "Just dealing with some vermin"
plus
Dr Saunders; "They'll go over your head"
Boyd; "I'm very tall"
and
Topher; "You're human"
Dr Saunders; "Don't flatter yourself"
Packing heat; Echo uses a pistol taken from Khar's goons
Echo;8
Boyd; 8
Dominic; 9
Sierra; 4
Victor; 3
Ballard; 10
November; 1
Echo kissage;3 at her wedding
Kinky dinky;
One of Echo's previous clients was a TV newsreader with a splosh fetish (a desire for sex with people covered in food). We now have Dominatrix Echo in the opening titles each week, much like Buffy and Faith dancing just too damn sexy not to show again and again. Sierra's 50s Princess character likes to be tied up and spanked (so much for Adele's assertion that the actives aren't hired out as sexual submissives). Topher refers to 'deviant excitment'. I never thought Eliza could be more sexy than as the dominatrix but seeing her in her wedding night lingerie she's just stunning and you couldn't pick which you prefer, sugar or spice? (a remark you understand much better if you've seen Batman Forever). Dr Saunders puts on the lacy teddy and puts the moves on Topher. He seems to have erotic dreams about Fozzie bear which is a whole other level of kinky. Topher observes that he could easily have made a willing sex slave but Saunders counters that the real ultimate fantasy is to make someone who initially hated you love you.
Capt subtext;
Note Adele stroking Victor's scarred face, remebering their Miss Lonelyheart time together. Dr Saunders keeps her scars because although she knows she's a doll her physical imperfections make her unique amongst them. Echo's handler telling Paul 'You're the client' really hit's home. Echo flashbacks to her and Whiskey done up like Ava Gardener and about to get all kissy at a masked ball. To my shame the first time around I missed the idea that what triggers this memory for Echo is Dr Saunders giving her a gynecological exam implying they did a lot more than just kiss. Dr Saunder's assertion that the ultimate sex fantasy is to make the person who despises you love and desire you is possibly an allusion to Caroline/Echo, Rossum's greatest enemy surrendering to them and allowing them to turn her into their willing plaything, their's to use and humiliate as they wish for fun and profit. Question is did Topher make Saunder's hate him as an aspect of his own self-loathing?
Echo's remark of 'We are lost but we are not gone' may be an allusion to the whole Dollhouse situation.
Notches on the Dollhouse bedpost; Echo and Khar
Echo; 4 definite, 1 possible
November; 1
Ballard; 1
Victor; 1
Adele; 1
Sierra 1 possible
Topher; 1 possible
How'd they get away with that?
.Echo's husband hitting his wife is a true 'Jeez!' moment. He may be an evil arms dealer but even he seems ashamed when she accuses him of domestic abuse. Sierra's anti-Asian racism towards Ivy is also a little hard to take even if played for laughs.
This weeks fantasy;
We see Echo as a bride/undercover agent and Sierra in her Jackie O/Audrey Hepburn personality. Echo also slips back into Margeret from 'Haunted' and Alpha's 'Badland's' style girlfriend Briar Rose from the end of the last season.
Total number personalitites; one more for Echo, we've seen Sierra's personality before
Echo; 24
Sierra; 11
Victor; 7
November; 3
Total dolls;
8-Echo, Sierra, November, Victor, Mike, Tango, Alpha, Whiskey
Addy is a bit British;
Joss seems to have a thing for British authority figures
Topher is a bit geeky;
Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
Bondage; we don't see any but Sierra obviously has a thing for it
Sierra tied up; 1
Ballard; 1
Knocked out;
Echo; 2
November; 1
Sierra; 1
Victor; 1
Topher; 1
Kills; assuming they die when she shoots them Echo kills two of the arms dealer's henchmen.
Sierra; 2 kills
Echo; 3
November;1
Dolls injured;
Echo with a big old gash on her head and concussion
Happy hookers;
Echo is an undercover agent who wins her mark's confidence by actually having sex with him, the stuff of bad erotic thrillers (Undercover Heat anyone? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114786/ ) something that gives Ballard great moral angst.
Know the face? Alexis Denisoff, another Whedon hattrick
9 Whedon alumni-Mark Shepherd-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Amy Acker-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), walking action figure-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Eliza Dushku-3 (Buffy/Angel/Dollhouse), Jim Piddock-2 (Angel/Dollhouse), Gregg Henry-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Alan Tudyk-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Felicia Day-2(Dollhouse/Buffy), Alexis Denisoff-3 (Buffy, Angel and Dollhouse)
Guantanamo;
Paul says he no longer cares about due process
Fanfic;
Missing scenes;.
Reminds me off;
The way Topher has engineered Saunder's phobias to prevent her leaving the Dollhouse is reminiscent of The Truman Show. The idea that Dr Saunders is reluctant to get her original personality back as that will be akin to dying for her is similar to an ep of ST;Voyager where 2 characters are merged by a transporter accident. Echo clinging to the bonnet of the car reminds me of TJ Hooker who was prone to that.
Whedon cliches;
Breaking the programming;
The dolls are noticeably less zombie like and have more personality, I think that was one of the reasons people couldn't take to them in the first season.
Questions and observations;
Echo has a new handler but this is the only time we see him. As Joss says the lighting on the Dollhouse is very different. Topher sleeps at work which seems to be a common thing in the Dollhouse. I think I'm beginning to fall a little in love with Ivy, she's a character who keeps growing on me more and more. In reference to the Jonas Brothers do they mean they're Dollhouse clients or that customers hire the actives out to play their roles? Still weird to hear Jamie Bamber talk with his real accent. Adele knows about Echo's unique nature but wants to watch her develop. Echo's remark of the 'Honeymoon is over' may be her telling Paul that from now on things are only going to get harder for them. Shame we don't get more of Amy Acker, Alexis Denisof etc this season but not enough in the budget (perhaps why they dropped CC/Conor from the last season of Angel so that they could have fan-favourite Spike?). It seems Joss' favourite series is BSG. I love Adele's new hair. Everyone seems to be hitting the booze pretty hard, even Dr Saunders (whiskey?).
Marks out of 10; 7/10 good ep, Joss didn't expect to get a second season so this is a partial reboot for the show
Completely agree about this 🙂
I really enjoyed the Topher/Saunders stuff but mainly from Topher's light, not too impressed by either AA or Saunders truth be told, even though their scenes are terrific.
To me this was a stronger opener, my favorite line from ED being the "who did they make me now?", very good and a little chilling. Paul is not my favorite but his journey and struggles really pulled me in this episode.
Although I have to admit that I was quite appalled at the first reveal of the wedding, agreeing with Boyd's 'this is sick'. Until the Echo/Paul thing was explained.
And honestly - don't care for Adelle's haircut. Not at all.
Yeah the wedding was a neat double bluff, had me fooled at first. One thing I forgot to mention that was lame was the henchman firing 2 shots at Ballard then just passing out, that seemed daft