Episode Discussion 2.09 "Stop Loss" & 2.10 "The Attic" - both aired 18/12/09 (FOX-US)

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!

I knew it! I KNEW ADELLE WASN'T EVIL!!!!!

Ahem.

Great episodes. Very very nice. If only they could have gotten this level of drama and focus going from the beginning (dammit, Fox!), maybe we wouldn't be facing cancellation right now.
 
F
faeriegrrl27
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Well my heart is now completely and utterly broke. During Dollhouse season 1 I was incredibly disappointed and I kept saying to myself things like "Oh this would be so much better if Echo could control all her personalities and use them to fight the dollhouse" or "I wish Echo, Sierra and Victor became a team like Buffy Willow and Xander" and "I wish there was more ass kicking on Eliza's part".

Anyone who's seen fridays episodes will no that my prayers were finally and ironically answered. Unfortunately I can't enjoy how awesome any of it is cos there's only three episodes left and then bye bye dollhouse sniff;(

Anyway enough of my wallowing, THE ATTIC WAS THE EBST EPISODE OF DOLLHOUSE SO FAR!!!! Stop Loss was nifty too (topless Enver, Priya and Anthony meeting, Echo being awesome, and ummm...TOPLESS ENVER!!!) but the Attic was a masterpiece. The imagery, the metaphors, the action and was anybody elso really creeped out for most of it?

Will someone please explain why Ivy came back from Adelle's office and told Tophe not to touch her?

Alos is Joss directing the season finale cos it's a bit crappy if Vows was his last episode.
 
Will someone please explain why Ivy came back from Adelle's office and told Tophe not to touch her?

She told Topher not to talk to her, and I'd say she was either a) freaked out because Adelle essentially told her she'd have Topher's job; or b) trying to show Adelle that she could handle Topher's job and not be influenced by him. Of course, we only know that's what Adelle told Ivy because that's what ADELLE said. She may have said something to Ivy that made her not like Topher anymore, then lied to Topher about what she told Ivy.
 
I don't know why anybody would be surprised if Victor/Sierra don't have a happy ending. This is a Joss show. It'd be shocking if they actually DID have a happy ending. One of them is dying soon.
 
She told Topher not to talk to her, and I'd say she was either a) freaked out because Adelle essentially told her she'd have Topher's job; or b) trying to show Adelle that she could handle Topher's job and not be influenced by him. Of course, we only know that's what Adelle told Ivy because that's what ADELLE said. She may have said something to Ivy that made her not like Topher anymore, then lied to Topher about what she told Ivy.
That's about what I thought when I first saw the scene too. I've been thinking about it since, and thought that *maybe* Adelle told Ivy about Topher chopping up Mister what's his face. I'm not sure if she'd trust her with that sort of info, but it would explain why she was so freaked.
 
These were two excellent episodes. If Dollhouse has to end, at least it's going out with a bang. That does bring quite a bit of consolation. It looks like most of our questions will be answered and we won't be going out on a cliffhanger, so for that I say thanks to FOX for announcing their intentions in time to allow it to end that way.

That being said, if the show was NOT being canceled I'd gladly wait for episodes like these...especially "The Attic". If this show had run five seasons or so I imagine that as being towards the end of the third season maybe. And I have never disliked Dollhouse, I've enjoyed every episode. I do think the show would have been more solid at the beginning if there hadn't been so much confusion over what FOX wanted. But I don't blame for FOX for being a little nervous, and I don't blame the writers for trying to deliver a somewhat more accessible show. The first half of season one was very good, the second half was great, and all of season two so far has been nothing short of excellent for me. And while I've enjoyed how the show has been obviously gearing itself up for its swan song (I'd say that's what the writers were doing at the beginning of the season, with the speed of how things develop) and delivering some excellent episodes, it also feels a bit rushed and I'd like to see how things would unfold if they had the luxury of several seasons (and knowing it) to tell the story.

Anyhoos...interesting concept introduced in "Stop-Loss", I'm glad we got a Victor-centric episode finally, and Sierra waiting for him was pretty much heartbreaking. I definitely love these two (not as much as Echo/Caroline though, I don't care what anyone says). I must say all of Rossom's conspiracies and technologies intrigue me and I wish the show was going longer just so we could have the chance to explore what else they are involved in. And "The Attic" was pretty much perfect. Beautifully done, creepy and intriguing imagery with a great script and great acting as well. I definitely need to rewatch it again.

Seeing Echo in the tank with the liquid and moving so fast was both disturbing and very very cool.
 
Im beginning to think this is becoming one of Joss' best works. I am so blown away and so, so upset and heart broken knowing it's the end. I wish they could continue somewhere else. The characters, the plot, the twists, it is truly amazing. Just sooo blown away by The Attic, what a phenomenal episode.
 
I'm all sad that it's ending. 🙁

But I thought these were great. I think I may have annoyed my friend with whom I was watching it, because until the end when we see Adelle actually being a good guy, I was in a rather pissy mood. Truth be told, I had suspected/hoped she was playing it the whole time. Actually, I was sure of it; the only problem was that I didn't know if they'd have enough time to reveal that and out of a need to tie things up, they might just leave her. But I squealed and jigged and did all sorts of happy things when she was revealed as *amazing.* I felt sure it was going to happen at the end of Stop Loss or at some time during The Attic... once Boyde chewed her out and she went to shower, the baptism/cleansing metaphor and imagery was just *too* good to waste and I had faith that Joss knew that.

I would have liked to have seen more Topher, but I'm glad Ivy's in on the whole thing. I was surprise, though pleased to see her standing in Adelle's office at the end. And that scene did remind me of the end of Power Play when they're all vowing to fight.

It was interesting seeing each of their "attics." And seeing the future gave me the same creepies that Epitaph One did... of the Whedon shows, this isn't my favorite, but I do find it the overall creepiest. I cannot wait for Epitaph Two... except for the part where that's the last ep. 🙁
 
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
Joss and co. made me believe she's completely nuts by making her drooling on the table! :P
I was so happy to see Dominic again. I missed that guy and his return was more awesome than I could imagine. Loved his highlander vibe. Also a lot more Boyd managed to put into it. Damn, such a perfect awesome show. It's like british show with 26 episodes of pure goodness. The original Prisoner had 17. Fawlty Towers had like 12. If I think of it as a british show it hurts much less.

I loved all the references to past episodes. All those catchphrases reappearing again. Attic is Dollhouse's Restless.
 
Stop Loss - some random comments

So, Paul said that a soul can't be erased...is it perhaps the same with love? This surely seems the case with Victor/Sierra.

How has Roger/Victor's engagement fallen in love with someone else? It's Sierra isn't it? Who altered his imprint? "Grouping" my ass! They're in LOVE!

So, Ballard's a vegetable? Great job, Joss! Kill of my favorite character. *sighs*
But, he must be revived later, as we see him in Epitaph One.

Favorite quotes:

“I made me.” – Echo
“Everything is slipping away from me” - Echo
“She’s a person” – Boyd on Echo
“Pain reveals who you really are” – Adelle
“He’s not ready to be by himself.” – Sierra on Victor
“Load me up. We’re going to war.” – Echo


How in the hell is it Echo's fault that Paul is braindead?
Will we get to really see Victor?
Afghanistan war vet? Severe PTSD? Yep. I thought so.

He finds a girl who looks like Sierra? How ironic.

Where’s Paul? In the attic? Echo standing up to Adelle! Yeah!

So, what exactly happened to the three? Are they brain-dead, too? What, are they like, beyond the Doll-state? Yet...conscious?

Who knew Victor could fight like that!

Super Soldier Victor Vs. Super Echo – who would win in a showdown?

This whole collective group mind soldier thing is so disturbing! Joss is really making a clear anti-war statement with this episode, and I’m not surprised.

Boyd called Adelle a drunk! Woot!
 
Talked to my dad, who just caught up on it and he was a fair fan of Buffy and Angel, and enjoyed Firefly. He thinks Dollhouse is better than Firefly and he says he thinks they should make a movie about it. He said it was very matrixy (the attic) and he loved the way they started the episode.

Ha ha, i love that my dad watches Whedon stuff!
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
My mom loved the ep, too.
Well, this episode completely blew my mind. It is what 'Restless' was to Buffy. Beautiful imagery. The scene when Victor stabs Sierra...very intense.

Totally creepy, totally bizarre, and totally awesome! Leave to Joss to create something this disturbing. (Come on! Rigamortis is the new Viagra!? Geez, Joss.)

the better this show gets the more sad I get due to the fact that it has been canceled. *sigh*
 
Quite amazing, im so excited as all of the events leading to epitaph one unfold! Didnt really like restless(sorry!) but i get the comparison. I realllllllyyyy hope they make a movie, i guess depending on how they end it but it's a very powerful series and echo is pretty much the ultimate ass kicking machine as far as humans go anyway. I really dont get how more people dont like this show, yet prisonbreak got like 4 seasons and that show was just ridiculously run-on-y awful after the second season. EFF YOU FOX.
 
Waow i'm glad Adelle is back to her normal self.
It's time for them to Kick Rossums assss!
ahahah 🙂

The attic kinda confused me a bit with the whole thing about the 'mainframe' or w.e it's called.
 
Great Eps on a Great Show

...if the show was NOT being canceled I'd gladly wait for episodes like these...especially "The Attic". If this show had run five seasons or so I imagine that as being towards the end of the third season maybe. And I have never disliked Dollhouse, I've enjoyed every episode. .

I agree with Randy Giles, all the episodes have been enjoyable for one reason or another. Some here have complained that if more eps were like "The Attic" the show might not have been cancelled, but, truth be told:

1) not every episode can be a mind bender with lots of exposition and cool stuff like "The Attic". Good dramas take time to develop, and it's the fans who stick in there during the eps that aren't all whiz bangy because its that kind of slow build up through multiple episodes that make ones like "The Attic" so awesome.

and 2) Even if every ep was all whiz bangy, they probably would have cancelled it anyway. I read that during the development of 'Firefly' a Fox exec told Joss, "we don't do serial dramas here" or something like that. Even with some attempts (season 1 especially) to make 'Dollhouse' an episodic show it does have a larger story arc, as do all good dramas, and that takes time to develop. And let's face it, most people who watch network TV these days just want episodic procedurals where they don't have to put in effort to watch every ep (not knocking them totally, I enjoy some of them too).

But along those lines...I've always wondered why Mr. Whedon hasn't been courted by the likes of HBO, or even Showtime? If ever there were networks where serialized dramas ruled the roost, and where they gave people like Joss creative room to breathe, those seem like the places where his work would get half a chance (or at least find an audience with more of an attention span). Does anyone know if this has ever happened? Or why it hasn't? I'd be interested to know.
 
I've enjoyed every single episode from the second season, no lie. 🙂
Much Much better than the first i think 😛
 
STOP LOSS
The good;
Ivy's back, hooray! A small moment but I love how Echo tells Victor he needs to say goodbye to Sierra and he does so like a kids TV character. Also a nice touch that he feels the need to sleep in a pod once released.
The bad;
Nothing bad, just a bit lacklustre. You wonder that the supersoldiers can't come up with a better way to recruit Victor than beating him up and kidnapping him, couldn't they just invite him for a beer or something? Check out the scene where Echo knocks Victor out. He waits a second then let's go of his rifle to allow her to pick it up.

Best line;
Adele; "I want roger. I want to roger Roger"
and
Echo; (threateningly) "Remember, I have a serial killer in my head"
Adele; (not backing down an inch) "One that's petirifed of women if I recall"
Packing heat; Echo chooses a S&W 9mm, Boyd has his revolver and Victor a SIG. Echo also picks up a SIG and everyone uses M4 carbines
Echo;10
Boyd; 10
Dominic; 9
Sierra; 5
Victor; 5
Ballard; 11
November; 1

Echo kissage; 4

Kinky dinky;
The only personality Ivy doesn't download into Echo is the 'Naughty pirate wench'. Which I think is something of a shame personally. GI Jane Echo is also pretty hot. Naked Adele. The last scene a delight for cling film fetishists. Again, I'm not kidding either; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummification_(BDSM)
Capt subtext;
Very obvious jealousy from Adele over Victor. When she takes the shower with the actives does this represent her throwing her lot in with them? The ending rather suggests the opposite.

Notches on the Dollhouse bedpost; Imprinted Victor actually refuses to have sex with the lovely Adele because he is promised to another
Echo; 6 definite, 2 possible
November; 1
Ballard; 1
Victor; 1
Adele; 1
Sierra 1
Topher; 1 possible

How'd they get away with that?
Drooling Adele!

This weeks fantasy;


What do we think of the client?


Total number personalitites; lord knows how many personalities Ivy and Topher downloaded into Echo for her mission, I'll put at least 5?
Echo; 41
Sierra; 13
Victor; 11
November; 3

Total LA dolls; .
9-Echo, Sierra, November, Victor, Mike, Tango, Alpha, Whiskey, Kilo

Addy is a bit British;
see best line

Topher is a bit geeky;

Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
When Victor is asked to join the big bad military conspiracy his response is "Where do I sign up?"

Bondage; Victor plasticuffed, Echo and Sierra hooded but not cuffed. Victor, Sierra and Echo all bound in the attic at the end
Sierra tied up; 2
Ballard; 2
Echo; 4
Victor; 2

Knocked out; Victor KO'd by commandos and Echo and Rossum as are Echo and Sierra
Echo; 7
November; 1
Sierra; 2
Victor; 3
Topher; 3
Ballard; 1

Kills; amazingly given all the gunplay the Dolls don't kill anyone
Sierra; 3 kills
Echo; 3
November;1

Dolls injured;


Happy hookers;
.

Know the face?
15-Whedon alumni-Mark Shepherd-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Amy Acker-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), walking action figure-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Eliza Dushku-3 (Buffy/Angel/Dollhouse), Jim Piddock-2 (Angel/Dollhouse), Gregg Henry-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Alan Tudyk-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Felicia Day-2(Dollhouse/Buffy), Alexis Denisoff-3 (Buffy, Angel and Dollhouse), Kristoffer Pohala-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), Stacey Scowley-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse) Clyde Katulas-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Maurissa Tanchon-2(Dollhouse/Dr Horrible), Summer Glau-3(Angel/Firefly/Dollhouse) Glenn Morshower-2(Buffy/Dollhouse)

Guantanamo;
Adele thinks that "Pain reveals who we really are". Does she mean his or hers? The Bay of Pigs is referred to (as it was in Buffy), a danger of 'group-think'. Echo tortured as she's sent to the attic.

Fanfic;
Just type mummification+fetish into your search engine

Missing scenes;.


Reminds me of;
The white body suits rather reminds me Jerry Bruckheimers The Island.

Whedon cliches; It's those strawberries again, just like Firefly. Secret military organisations with underground headquarters
Maimed characters. Rich and powerful famillies who cover up the evil deeds of their wayward sons. Top security installations which aren't secure at all. Loving self-sacrificing mothers who risk all for their children. Corporate politics literally played with deadly seriousness. Monty Python quoting villains. Offices full of zombies. Strawberries.

Breaking the programming;
Victor and Sierra's love is now evident whether they're imprinted or not.

Questions and observations;
So the Dollhouse can cure PTSD (shellshock)? Once again, if Rossum can cure schizophrenia and battle trauma you can see their potential for good in the world and how Adele became attracted to the post in the first place. Victor's real name is Anthony Ceccoli and to judge by his accent he's from New York. He was a commando with the 75th Ranger regiment and served in Afghanistan. His pal transferred to the 160th Specialist Aviation Regiment, the Nightstalkers. Once again we have Lady Gaga just as we had in the first ep, someone must be a fan. Note Victor's suite is 'at the Hyperion' which you understand better if you're an Angel fan. Echo tells Adele that the time for playing both sides is over and she must choose. No needles, hooray! Adele hitting the sauce pretty hard nowadays, we hardly see her without a glass in her hand. What's a 'Sharpie'? Do we ever meet Judith, Adele's secretary? What happened to the commandos? Can Echo just call upon them whenever she needs? Are she and Victor now linked via their 'neural radio'? Presumably Rossum use Topher's gizmo from 'The Public Eye' to knock the Dolls out.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, I had it in my mind to give this 3 out of 10 as I initially considered it a weak ep but actually upon rewatching it's a lot better than I remember . One thing that rather spoils it is Epitaph One, we all know that Echo and co must survive and that they must escape the Attic
 
THE ATTIC

The good;
Quite effective episode which explains a lot in terms of exposition but the best part of all is the bait and switch at the end, hell of a Keyser Soze, worthy of 'Enemies' and 'Not Fade Away'.
The bad;
Considering how omniscient Rossum are supposed to be it seems incredible that Adele is able to assemble her troops without them knowing. But maybe they do? Clyde might as well be called 'Basil Exposition'.

Best line;
Echo; "My real name's Echo" (so what about Caroline?)
Packing heat; everyone fielding H&K MP5Ks and M4's. Ballards takes Boyd's revolver for his confrontation with Adele and she has acquired a Walther PPK in case Alpha plans another visit.
Echo;12
Boyd; 10
Dominic; 10
Sierra; 7
Victor; 7
Ballard; 11
November; 1

Echo kissage; 4

Kinky dinky;
"Rigor mortis is the new viagra" That doesn't even bear thinking about! Adele says that the Dollhouse need's a 'strapping new Victor'.
Capt subtext;
When Topher claims to have tried homo and hetertopic cures for Ballard Adele puns on the words and asks who hasn't? Note Echo describes Terry Karen's family as 'hateful', her opinion of them obviously influenced by his memories. Adele states what we all thought, that Boyd is like a father to Echo. Clyde 1.0's fears are essentially what we see realised in Epitaph 1. If Adele is considering Ballard for the new Victor perhaps she wants him to play Roger from now on?

Notches on the Dollhouse bedpost; Sierra and Victor get it on but it's not real
Echo; 6 definite, 2 possible
November; 1
Ballard; 1
Victor; 1
Adele; 1
Sierra 1
Topher; 1 possible

How'd they get away with that?
Not only needles but Echo stabbing the Rossum tech in the forehead with them! Slit throats, severed legs, cannabalism and self-cannabalism! Jeez!

This weeks fantasy;


What do we think of the client?


Total number personalitites;
Echo; 41
Sierra; 13
Victor; 11
November; 3

Total LA dolls; .
9-Echo, Sierra, November, Victor, Mike, Tango, Alpha, Whiskey, Kilo

Addy is a bit British;


Topher is a bit geeky;
Has no idea about Ivy's sports analogy. He's wrong though, Darth Vader kills Captains, not Lieutenants.

Subverting the Hollywood cliche;


Bondage;
Sierra tied up; 2
Ballard; 2
Echo; 4
Victor; 2

Knocked out;
Echo; 7
November; 1
Sierra; 2
Victor; 3
Topher; 3
Ballard; 1

Kills;
Sierra; 3 kills
Echo; 3
November;1

Dolls injured;


Happy hookers;
.

Know the face? Greg Collins also played one of the thugs in the Angel ep 'Rm w/a vu'
16-Whedon alumni-Mark Shepherd-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Amy Acker-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), walking action figure-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Eliza Dushku-3 (Buffy/Angel/Dollhouse), Jim Piddock-2 (Angel/Dollhouse), Gregg Henry-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Alan Tudyk-2 (Dollhouse/Firefly), Felicia Day-2(Dollhouse/Buffy), Alexis Denisoff-3 (Buffy, Angel and Dollhouse), Kristoffer Pohala-2 (Dollhouse/Angel), Stacey Scowley-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse) Clyde Katulas-2 (Buffy/Dollhouse), Maurissa Tanchon-2(Dollhouse/Dr Horrible), Summer Glau-3(Angel/Firefly/Dollhouse) Glenn Morshower-2(Buffy/Dollhouse), Greg Collins-2(Angel/Dollhouse)

Guantanamo;


Fanfic;


Missing scenes;.


Reminds me of;
The whole thing is very reminiscent of the Buffy ep 'Restless', right down to the monster pursuing the characters from dreamscape to dreamscape not to mention the Angel ep 'Hellbound'. .
The twisty tree reminds me of Tom Burton's gothic masterpiece Sleepy Hollow. I don't get the Highlander reference, I don't remember Connor pursuing anyone obsessively across the centuries? Need I mention The Matrix?

Whedon cliches;
Maimed characters. Rich and powerful famillies who cover up the evil deeds of their wayward sons. Top security installations which aren't secure at all. Loving self-sacrificing mothers who risk all for their children. Corporate politics literally played with deadly seriousness. Monty Python quoting villains. Offices full of zombies. Strawberries.

Breaking the programming;
Echo can now overcome even the Attic and leads the others to safety.

Questions and observations;
Note the shortened title sequence, obviously too much to fit in otherwise. Topher now calls Ballard, Paul. Boyd has 'stuff going on at home'? Presumably the little girl mourning her sickly horse is Margeret from Haunted who was a keen equestrian. Echo never was a kid so presumably we're looking at little Caroline (interesting if you compare her to the girl who played little Tru in Tru Calling and young Eliza in This Boy's Life and True Lies). We also see the thug who terrorised Eleanor Penn again. Dominic very much dressing down in the attic, not a suit in sight. Adele knows about Kinnard.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, we're getting to the heart of the conspiracy at last.
 
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