2/27-3/5 Episode Discussion led by zobothehobo

[zobothehobo]

So it's my week to lead a discussion and I forgot with all the excitement yesterday to post it!!! So my topic I've chosen is the key. Do you think the monks should have destroyed it? Or do you think they were right to create Dawn? In other words, do you agree with the Kights of Byzantium before the key was made human?

NOTE: this question is regardless of your feelings for Dawn. So even if you hate Dawn, you can think their mission to try and harness the key's power for good and not destroy it was a good idea. And even if you love Dawn you can think the best option would have been to destroy the key.


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My opinion: I think they should have destroyed the key. Not only did creating Dawn not really harness the power of the key for good that much, but when she dies, so will the power of the key. Making the key into a human was a dumb move and just thrusting this responsibility on Buffy was awful of them. I'm siding with the Kights of Byzantium in this case when the general guy said the monks were stupid. They should have destroyed the key. I mean what were the benefits of not destroying it?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I mean what were the benefits of not destroying it?

Just because captain knight-tattooed-forehead-guy said they could destroy the key, why do you think they actually could? They never could before. Never really saw the key before, if I recall correctly. Now the monks are a different story. As the monks knew the key, hung out with the key and what not. Maybe the monks knew the key could not be destroyed (as energy never is) but only harnessed. But the whole making the key a human thing was just (again) an easy way for the writers to introduce Sarah's friend to the audience. Why in the world they would make it human? There would be no reason.

 

[Taake]

I mean what were the benefits of not destroying it?

This. Exactly.

I mean... after "the Gift" Dawn seems pretty no-key like (I guess some discussions could be had about that and Dawnie's potential future) but at least her key essence seems dormant throughout the series... So if she only opened this hellish portals and was chased down by a powerful God who wanted back into hell...

I'm just sayin' - why did they not destory her when she was still an 'it'.
Did they think they could use the magical properties of the key for something else? Did they think Buffy could?

And also... as far as not ruining the key went and sending it to the Slayer... not to be mean to Buffy but for a fair part she was fairly ineffectual against Glory so that was a pretty big gamble on their behalf wasn't it? Risking the world and for what exactly?

To me it makes little sense... a cool plot twist riddled with holes...

 

[Chosen Enemy]

As the general said, probably the only reason the monks made it human and didn't destroy it was because they were fools. It's a problem destroying it when it's already human, that's just murder. They might as well make it a baseball bat so Buffy could later throw it in the fire. I really don't understand why making it human in the first place. Make everybody's memories altered, messing with the entire world as if Dawn was there all along. Dawn suffers from that too. It's not like she wanted to be a key. She wants to be a normal human being. On the other hand, if she wasn't made the key, she probably wouldn't have existed at all, I don't know if she would have wanted that. Even though she was ready to jump off the tower in The Gift, while realizing she must, I don't think she's that suicidal. Her existence though, is a burden, at least in season 5. She knows that. I think she prefers the world to be safe rather than live as the key and destroy it. She knows that all the troubles with Glory and the portal is because of her. Not because it's her fauly, but because of her existance. So yeah, maybe it'd be better for her not to be made into the key, and that energy to be a baseball bat.

 

[Doppelgang]

I suppose you can only assume that the monks didn't want Buffy and the scoobies to have the option of destroying the key, thats why they sent it to the slayer as a sister, for that would be the last thing she'd be willing to destroy. But we never really hear what the positive use of the key is, maybe the monks hoped for a future time when the different dimensions could be reconciled via the key without the consequence of chaos and the end of the world?

 

[Icarium]

The monks were monumentally stupid, that's for sure. For some reason they think Buffy can protect the Key, never mind that Glory is vastly stronger than her. They turn said key into a girl with the survival chances of a crocodile stuck in an Arctic tundra and send her to the most dangerous town in the world. Then they pretty much lead Glory to Sunnydale and tell Buffy about Dawn's identity which makes the whole fake memories thing utterly pointless. Really, the whole storyline is so self-contradictory that any attempt to analyse is doomed to get to the conclusion that somebody didn't really think things through beyond the potential for lots of angst....

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Of course Buffy is the one who would protect the key best. But why making it something that needs protection in the first place? Or, you know, even if it was a vase at Buffy's house to protect, that would be better.

 

[Doppelgang]

Of course Buffy is the one who would protect the key best. But why making it something that needs protection in the first place? Or, you know, even if it was a vase at Buffy's house to protect, that would be better.

I was just thinking that maybe they wanted it to be something Buffy wouldn't be able to destroy. And we don't know for sure that the monks could have made it into anything they wanted, it was only Glory who suggested that, maybe the monks were limited in what they could make to function as a key.

Anyway, I do agree that it would have been much easier for them to protect it if it was an object of some sort, cos they could hide it away or something, but they may then have chosen to destroy it instead and maybe the monks didn't want them to do this, but then why the monks didn't want them to do this, I don't know, maybe they were being a bit stupid here as the general said.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I was just thinking that maybe they wanted it to be something Buffy wouldn't be able to destroy. And we don't know for sure that the monks could have made it into anything they wanted, it was only Glory who suggested that, maybe the monks were limited in what they could make to function as a key.

Anyway, I do agree that it would have been much easier for them to protect it if it was an object of some sort, cos they could hide it away or something, but they may then have chosen to destroy it instead and maybe the monks didn't want them to do this, but then why the monks didn't want them to do this, I don't know, maybe they were being a bit stupid here as the general said.

I think not only Glory came to the conclution that the key could have been made into anything, it was also the viewers. I'm saying that because I think that's what the writers wanted us to understand. It's like they make us believing in something for a reason.

 

[caitaintdead]

Okay, so a lot of people are saying that the monks should have just destroyed the key, but if there was (or is?) something more that the key was capable of then maybe sometimes it's worth taking a risk.

How often do people say when discussing love and friendship and relationships in general that sometimes you have to put something on the line to gain something. Take a risk and earn a gain.

Perhaps in this case the risk was high, but we don't know what the gain could have been at this stage, so to know only one side of the story is a little bit biased. Of course we think the key should have been destroyed - we have been shown the destruction that it can cause - but not what the 'good' is that could have been harnessed.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Honestly?? I really love Dawn, and I do love how the writers told the story of how she got there and why everyone just magically knew who she was. However, that being said, the monks should have destroyed the Key. If they couldn't destroy it, they had no right to alter the memories in everyone in Buffy's life so she could guard the Key for them. It put Buffy and everyone around her in much more danger than was necessary.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Doppelgang agrees: They did that kind of thing in season 6 where they made it look like Spike wanted to get the chip out of his brain, when really he wanted to get his soul back. It's either clever writing to mislead us or bad writing, I'm not sure which

But afterwards they made an efford to let us know that it was the soul he was after. It was meant to confuse us. I think that if they wanted to do the same with Glory and the key, they would have made sure we knew the truth afterwards, they wouldn't have just kept it hanging there.

 

[zobothehobo]

Ok... So different question now... It seems there's a general consensus making the key into Dawn is a dumb idea because of what we've seen... but maybe not a dumb idea in general... And Tabby (LoveLoveLovix) posted a thread about Dawn's lack of powers which got me thinking... someone in that thread said Dawn's ability to do spells (even tricky ones) right on the first try maybe (probably) speaks to her key powers... so do you think that's kind of what the monks may have had in mind when they made Dawn? A very powerful wicca who fights on the side of good?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

do you think that's kind of what the monks may have had in mind when they made Dawn? A very powerful wicca who fights on the side of good?

No, I only think the monks thought "the writers want to add a friend of SMG so how do we do it? Lets give her a little sister!" and then it all went from there.. as far as what powers the key does or does not possess was all second thought. It was never mentioned as having powers, it was only every mentioned as serving one purpose 'to open a door' to Glory dimension.

 

[Doppelgang]

It is a possiblity, but I don't think they had that in mind. I don't think we can know what they had in mind because nothing within the Series' gave them a chance to develop on what the positive use of the key may be, thanks to Glory. And after the whole thing at the end of season 5 Dawn just became a normal girl, so it would just be speculation. One of the reasons Dawn was able to have success with magic was because Willow helped her by making that book fall off the shelf for Dawn to look at to do some spells when she was grieving after Joyce's death and asking Willow and Tara for help to do a spell.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

No, I only think the monks thought "the writers want to add a friend of SMG so how do we do it? Lets give her a little sister!" and then it all went from there.. as far as what powers the key does or does not possess was all second thought. It was never mentioned as having powers, it was only every mentioned as serving one purpose 'to open a door' to Glory dimension.

From what I've heard, Joss wanted to bring back the younger audience (since the scoobies grew up), so he decided to give Buffy a sister. It was afterwards when SMG recommened on her friend from All my Children (Michelle) to Joss. They wanted the sister to be younger, but Michelle fit in other more important categories I guess, and did the ugly thing of using one of the star's friends which is so unfair to the girls who actually fit better for the role they meant to create. That's ugly.

 

[BuffyElevated]

From what I've heard, Joss wanted to bring back the younger audience (since the scoobies grew up), so he decided to give Buffy a sister. It was afterwards when SMG recommened on her friend from All my Children (Michelle) to Joss. They wanted the sister to be younger, but Michelle fit in other more important categories I guess, and did the ugly thing of using one of the star's friends which is so unfair to the girls who actually fit better for the role they meant to create. That's ugly.

I like Michelle as Dawn. So what if she got the job because she's friends with SMG? She's also a good actress and she did a great job with the material she was given.