20 Years: Not Fade Away

famicommander said:
The show doesn't really have a clear message. It muddles any lessons it tries to teach because its protagonist has no moral compass.

Like I said, the finale was entertaining but it shows that Angel is not in any sense a better person than he was when we first met him in the Buffy pilot.
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I believe it does have a clear message (the show on a whole and the finale). You don't.
We'll agree to disagree on the matter. 😎
👍
 
The Finale does have a clear message. The rest of series tries to have something to say about life as a young adult at the turn of the millennium, with varying degrees of success.
 
AlphaFoxtrot said:
The Finale does have a clear message. The rest of series tries to have something to say about life as a young adult at the turn of the millennium, with varying degrees of success.
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What's the message again?

It's okay to get a whole bunch of innocent people killed in a backlash from your self-admitted futile gesture based solely on your own ego?
 
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
You realise they're FICTIONAL characters, right?
I mean basically the episode ends on a cliff hanger and despite all the writers afterwards saying no it doesn't, well yes it does but inspite of all that it is a goid episode.
Overall I think for the characters Angel and Spike it's best they meet there end in that alleyway
 
Nearly 22 years? Boy, do i feel oldddd!

AlphaFoxtrot said:
Right, Gunn dies and becomes a vampire. Wes and Cordie now belong to higher powers. What's ever left of Fred is being digested over the course of a thousand years. Navigating the challenges of young adulthood, only to embrace eternal slavery because of a vagrant's vaguely defined war against a law firm.
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Yes, i think the ending was a dog's breakfast. All the humans dead. Lorne alienated. Angel and Spike likely dust.

Worse, if you consider the comics, world went to hell... Angel probably should have ended with season 4 sometime BEFORE Cordy&Connor yuckscapades.

Nope, not a happy ending for me. Especially with killing off ALL the women. No, Harmony does not make a good addition much a replacement for Cordelia or Fred.

I have real life for misery and mayhem. I like something where everything doesn't go down in flames and woe. Chosen has issues a plenty (dead Anya & Spike) but at least they saved the world.
 
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Goby said:
I think it is a brilliant series finale and one of my favorite episodes in the Buffyverse. It's message is clear and I've always thought it was stolen from Hemingway's "For Whom The Bell Tolls." I loved every minute of it.
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I always viewed it as a Bolivian Army ending (Butch and Sundance). You don't see it but you know what happens (at least until they continue it in comics).
 
I felt cheated that we never got to see the Angel-killing beast (the one Lindsey tried to awaken in the ep where Cordelia "wakes up"). I was really curious about that. 'Course just because it was perfect for killing Angel doesn't mean it could survive Illyria (who might rip through it and come out the other side of the beast holding one of its hearts--my imagination at work) and maybe even Wesley prepared an arcane solution beforehand.

I'll have to watch it again before I say more than that.
 
The Countermeasure just seemed like a gimmick. Especially after Hamilton showed up. And the Dragon Army. I doubt any real though was put into it.

*And the part where the Senior Partners pulled LA into hell, and turned Angel into a human. That sounds like the type of guys who need countermeasures.
 
hoponlilmama said:
What are your thoughts on the finale? What moments do you like/loathe?
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I was livid when I first saw it, because we're just left hanging. The episode just ends abruptly, and we're left to wonder if they survived. But now? I think it's genius."Let's go to work," encapsulates perfectly the tone of the show, Angel's character and his mission. Never stop fighting, no matter the cost.
 
hoponlilmama
hoponlilmama
Don't know about you, but I yelled at the television. "No! You can't end it like that!"
DeepBlueJoy said:
Nope, not a happy ending for me. Especially with killing off ALL the women. No, Harmony does not make a good addition much a replacement for Cordelia or Fred.

I have real life for misery and mayhem. I like something where everything doesn't go down in flames and woe. Chosen has issues a plenty (dead Anya & Spike) but at least they saved the world.
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Whilst I get your point (and agree), this is more about the finale episode rather than the complete 5th season. By Not Fade Away, Fred and Cordy were already gone, and Harmony is...Harmony. She's not really part of the team.
 
hoponlilmama said:
Whilst I get your point (and agree), this is more about the finale episode rather than the complete 5th season. By Not Fade Away, Fred and Cordy were already gone, and Harmony is...Harmony. She's not really part of the team.
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The finale they had was not the one they could have had if it had not been Fredless and Cordelialess
 
DeepBlueJoy said:
The finale they had was not the one they could have had if it had not been Fredless and Cordelialess
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How do you mean? You don't think it would've led to the final battle against the senior partners? If Cordy and Fred were there in the fight, they likely would've been killed off early.
 
hoponlilmama said:
How do you mean? You don't think it would've led to the final battle against the senior partners? If Cordy and Fred were there in the fight, they likely would've been killed off early.
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If they had been there, different choices might have been made. Going head to head against the Black Thorn and Senior Partners - even going to Wolfram and Hart were Quixotic, suicidal acts. They were not David against Goliath, they were the bug against the windshield.

A functional Cordelia would have been unlikely to agree to go to Wolfram and Hart. Yeah, she was sort of the moral compass, but more than that she was the practical smack on the head.
"Dont be stupid, Angel, i would rather fight a dozen hell hounds than go to work for Wolfram and Hart!"
 
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hoponlilmama said:
How do you mean? You don't think it would've led to the final battle against the senior partners? If Cordy and Fred were there in the fight, they likely would've been killed off early.
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The Snr Partners like The Powers that be were just a mystery box
 
DeepBlueJoy said:
If they had been there, different choices might have been made. Going head to head against the Black Thorn and Senior Partners - even going to Wolfram and Hart were Quixotic, suicidal acts. They were not David against Goliath, they were the bug against the windshield.

A functional Cordelia would have been unlikely to agree to go to Wolfram and Hart. Yeah, she was sort of the moral compass, but more than that she was the practical smack on the head.
"Dont be stupid, Angel, i would rather fight a dozen hell hounds than go to work for Wolfram and Hart!"
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True, but at the end of the day she'll join in the fight with Angel. She might've just gone with Lorne though. We'll never know.
 
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