3/20-3/26 Episode Discussion led by Icarium

[Icarium]

I was thinking about posting a very long rant about ME's tendency to want to have things both ways and the moral, artistic and other implications of that. Then I thought that it's too general of a topic, plus I got lazy, so I the actual topic will not be as vague. Here it is - Does it bother you how Xander is treated in S4, or more to the point, the way he is turned into a buttmonkey that season. Was that a natural development or a sign of ME playing favorites to the detriment of the show? Should there have been more screentime devoted to Xander's story in S4?

Let me outline a few aspect of the topic:

- Anya's relationship with Xander. Do you think it's normal that his friends are not bothered at all by him picking a serial murderer for a girlfriend (except for a bit of passive-aggressiveness for Willow)? Do you think Anya supported Xander well in his year of crisis? Important episodes - The Yoko Factor, Hush, Where The Wild Things Are, The Harsh Light of The Day, Pangs.

- Did the writers go way too far in humiliating Xander? Examples - the slapfight with Harmony (The Initiative), Willow and Buffy ignoring him while he had syphilis, malaria and other diseases (Pangs), electrocuted by the blaster without anyone bothering to notice (This Year's Girl), his extreme worship of Jonathan in Superstar which somehow ended not with Xander mad at the little bastard but missing him after the spell was broken, being in the episodes only long enough for Faith to make fun of him and to make a phone call off-screen (Who Are You).

- Do you think Xander was treated with the same respect as other characters who were in position of trying to find their way - Buffy in S6, Giles in S4, Wesley in parts of S3-4 of AtS, etc.

Okay, this is getting a bit long-ish, so that's enough for now. I hope you like the topic. 🙂

 

[paks]

I just started rewatching season 4 so this will be a good topic for me as I go through it. I loved Xander in the first ep The Freshmen. His uplifiting talk to Buffy when Buffy is feeling low on confidence, and his lines at the end of the ep. I think we start to see him really becoming her strength in this ep like she says in season 7. I will be watching eps all week, so i will have to come back and post some more on this topic as I go. 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

Well, there's a canonical comic in which Xander is held captive by Dracula for a year while Buffy doesn't seem to care, so I'd say the buttmonkeydom is hardly limited to season 4. 🙂

I might post more later, but I think you answered your own questions. No, apart from the first few episodes and 'Restless', he wasn't treated with any respect whatsoever. Heck, the writers even have him conveniently forget his military skills in a season that is all about the military, just to make sure he can't possibly ever be involved in the main story. I do like Anya, in spite of her semi-sociopathic tendencies, in the sense that she's there for Xander and actually cares about him.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I really, really hate the direction they took Xander in Season 4. I don't like that the show made it out like that if you don't go to college, you're a loser. I don't like that the writers kept writing these storylines about how he was fired from everything, like Xander wasn't capable of doing anything well. I'm so glad that in Season 5 they started to redeem his character a little by giving him his carpentry skills/career.

 

[Bluebird]

I didn't mind it so much, even though Xander is probably my favourite character. You could say the same thing about Spike's character too, that both were almost only used for comic relief in season 4. I'm actually glad Xander didn't go to college with the others, since I think that's more realistic. Gave some viewers something to relate to.

He couldn't go from the way he was in high school to later years without some transition, so I didn't really have a problem with him in season 4. Although I can see where he was treated badly by other characters, I don't think that's exclusive to season 4. Poor Xander.

 

[brinkster130]

Admittedly, Xander is one of my least favorite characters so it didn't bother me a whole lot when they turned Xander into a buttmonkey during season 4.

I think that season 4 focused a lot on the transition they were going through at the time, and I always thought Xanders was completely possible. Up to this point we didn't see any educational motivation or any sign of Xander seriously thinking about a solid career post high-school; so I thought it was reasonable for him to pick up the odd job here and there until he found something he liked.

I did think that they could have done more with the Anya story line. Xander voiced his opinion about Buffy dating Angel (Much like Anya, also a monster who had killed many) over and over throughout the first three seasons, then he turns around and falls for Anya and no one mentions or notices the hypocrisy. I think they could have had Buffy/Xander talk and deal with their unspoken issues...plus the whole "kick his ass" line could have been properly brought up.

As far as humiliating Xander goes, I think the writers have done that since day one. He is their comedic relief and a large portion of that comedy is based on his "stupidity".

 

[Icarium]

As far as humiliating Xander goes, I think the writers have done that since day one. He is their comedic relief and a large portion of that comedy is based on his "stupidity".

I disagree. First, Xander's role in S1-3 is much bigger than just comic relief. He saves Buffy quite a few times, he is entangled in romantic relationships or at least unrequited crushes with all the important female characters who are his age and his willingness to challenge Buffy provides balance to Willow's more unconditional support. When he brings the funny, in the vast majority of cases it's him saying something witty or doing something hilarious, not him at the butt of the joke. Cordelia is the one whose stupidity is made fun of most often, not Xander. Yes, sometimes it happens to him too but sometimes it also happens to Buffy (Giles proclaiming that Buffy checking out a book from the library should be grounds for national holiday, for instance). Giles and Willow's bookishness is also a source of jokes sometimes but everything is usually lighthearted and I never got the impression that we are supposed to really agree that the Scoobs are a bunch of losers.

In S4 this changes. Anya and Spike are comic relief but they are not the butt of the jokes usually, that's Xander's exclusive position. When Giles is treated badly by Buffy and Maggie Walsh in "A New Man" we are obviously supposed to be on Giles's side and he has a reconciliation with Buffy at the end of the episode. Compare and contrast with Xander's funny syphilis, Giles forcing him to shelter Spike, Xander saying in Superstar how he feels empty without Super!Jonathan, the only meaningful reconciliation in Primeval being between Buffy and Willow who have a long talk while Xander only gets a token hug, etc.

 

[zobothehobo]

I really, really hate the direction they took Xander in Season 4. I don't like that the show made it out like that if you don't go to college, you're a loser. I don't like that the writers kept writing these storylines about how he was fired from everything, like Xander wasn't capable of doing anything well. I'm so glad that in Season 5 they started to redeem his character a little by giving him his carpentry skills/career.

As someone who's felt like a loser a lot because my friends are off at college doing the college thing and I'm at home doing the community college thing (which is NOT the same), I related to Xander a lot in season 4. But I didn't think he looked like as big of a loser as he thought he did. I was jealous of how easy it was for him to go out and find a job... I mean even if he did go through a lot of them, he kept finding jobs all over the place!!! Of course this was in 99 and 2000 but still (and it should be noted I was WAY too young then to remember what the job market looked like so I'm only comparing to today). And he had the basement... he didn't have to go interact with his family unless he needed something from up there or they knocked on his door. I am in the same bedroom I've had for years... I love my bedroom, I have the master bedroom... but it sucks. Absolutely nothing has changed for me. So much changed for Xander, he just didn't realize it.

 

[The Unspoken]

I did think that they could have done more with the Anya story line. Xander voiced his opinion about Buffy dating Angel (Much like Anya, also a monster who had killed many) over and over throughout the first three seasons, then he turns around and falls for Anya and no one mentions or notices the hypocrisy. I think they could have had Buffy/Xander talk and deal with their unspoken issues...plus the whole "kick his ass" line could have been properly brought up.

Those issues can't be adressed because the writers only treat Xander as a buttmonkey in this season. But then again, you didn't seem to mind that, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

 

[brinkster130]

I disagree. First, Xander's role in S1-3 is much bigger than just comic relief. He saves Buffy quite a few times, he is entangled in romantic relationships or at least unrequited crushes with all the important female characters who are his age and his willingness to challenge Buffy provides balance to Willow's more unconditional support. When he brings the funny, in the vast majority of cases it's him saying something witty or doing something hilarious, not him at the butt of the joke. Cordelia is the one whose stupidity is made fun of most often, not Xander.

I agree that Xander does have a larger role than just the comedic relief in S1-3 and that he is often not the butt of the stupidity jokes. (but I do think it is still there, The Zeppo comes to mind; no one wanting Xander around to fight.) I think a big part of this is because he is the one telling the jokes; he makes fun of Cordy more than anyone. In S4 the person he has been making fun of for the last three years is gone...I thought the jokes just sort of fell onto him. His attitude about being a loser and his insecurities about it make it easy for people to laugh at him about it. Spike for example, knows about these feelings and has no problems laughing and poking fun at Xander about it.

Giles and Willow's bookishness is also a source of jokes sometimes but everything is usually lighthearted and I never got the impression that we are supposed to really agree that the Scoobs are a bunch of losers.

I don't think we are suppose to think of the scoobies as losers either...didn't mean to imply that they were. I think that even the jokes made about Xander in S4 were for the most part lighthearted. I never got the impression that Buffy, Willow, Giles or Anya sincerely believed Xander was stupid or a loser.

In S4 this changes. Anya and Spike are comic relief but they are not the butt of the jokes usually, that's Xander's exclusive position. When Giles is treated badly by Buffy and Maggie Walsh in "A New Man" we are obviously supposed to be on Giles's side and he has a reconciliation with Buffy at the end of the episode. Compare and contrast with Xander's funny syphilis, Giles forcing him to shelter Spike, Xander saying in Superstar how he feels empty without Super!Jonathan, the only meaningful reconciliation in Primeval being between Buffy and Willow who have a long talk while Xander only gets a token hug, etc.

I disagree about Spike not being the butt of the jokes usually. In S4 Spike was chipped and ended up seeking refuge with Giles and Xander; he got made fun (maybe deservingly) a lot.

Maybe the dynamic between Xander and the other Scoobies changes when Xander and Anya because a serious pair. Anya was concerned for Xander throughout the syphilis debacle so maybe the others figured since he had Anya by his side he didn't need them as much?

 

[BananaBuffy]

You do have somewhat of a good point. Xander's character in season for falls so far into the buttmonkey that is there to amuse everyone that we loose him for a time. Sure, we can watch the show with open mind, not thinking about the character flaws or changes and just laughing when we see Xander get into another stupid situation but if you go and think about it it is something to be bothered by. He didn't get the serious 'where am I going?' thing that some other characters did at their points. He got a few laughs while we waited for the season to end.

It is a bad direction that they chose to take him. Although I do believe that he has been somewhat of that position from the very begining. I'm not saying it was quite as bad and his role DID have more to it than just that but in season four...it had a little more direction...the buttmonkey stuff just took over. I still believe he's relatable to some people and such.

 

[brinkster130]

Those issues can't be adressed because the writers only treat Xander as a buttmonkey in this season. But then again, you didn't seem to mind that, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

I'm not complaining...I am answering a question with my honest opinion. I don't think it is a good think that those issues were never addressed; I think the writers missed an opportunity.

 

[The Unspoken]

I'm not complaining...I am answering a question with my honest opinion. I don't think it is a good think that those issues were never addressed; I think the writers missed an opportunity.

Well yes, but you're actually defending the use of Xander as a buttmonkey, and that contradicts with wanting those issues addressed. It was a missed opportunity precisely because Xander was only treated as a buttmonkey. Seriously adressing Anya's colorful past would mean that they would treat Xander and his relationship with Anya seriously, something that they obviously refused to do in this season.

Compare Xander/Anya to the dramatic arcs of Buffy/Riley and Oz/Willow/Tara. Night and day.

 

[brinkster130]

Well yes, but you're actually defending the use of Xander as a buttmonkey, and that contradicts with wanting those issues addressed. It was a missed opportunity precisely because Xander was only treated as a buttmonkey. Seriously adressing Anya's colorful past would mean that they would treat Xander and his relationship with Anya seriously, something that they obviously refused to do in this season.

Don't know that I am defending it so much as I am saying I didn't mind it. Xander is not a character I was ever invested in, so having him not taken as seriously as the others didn't personally bother me a whole lot...but that doesn't mean I don't notice or am incapable of admitting that he could have been given better story lines.

Compare Xander/Anya to the dramatic arcs of Buffy/Riley and Oz/Willow/Tara. Night and day.

I agree.

 

[Icarium]

His attitude about being a loser and his insecurities about it make it easy for people to laugh at him about it. Spike for example, knows about these feelings and has no problems laughing and poking fun at Xander about it.

But that's also a part of the problem. Why should Xander just stay and take the abuse from Spike? With the chip in place he can beat Spike up or at least snark at him in response. he does that sometimes but not nearly enough. In a particularly egregious example from "This Year's Girl" Spike makes fun of Giles and Xander and tells them glibly he is going to betray them to Faith and what do they do? Let him go and say "we are dumb". One of the reasons I think "Where the Wild Things Are" is underrated is because it has a more confident Xander who doesn't hesitate to tell of Anya and Spike when they try to make fun of him for the umpteenth time.

I never got the impression that Buffy, Willow, Giles or Anya sincerely believed Xander was stupid or a loser.

Even when Buffy saw the sick Xander in Pangs and her first reaction was "You didn't bring rolls"? Or when Giles is all indignant about having to hide in Xander's basement.

I disagree about Spike not being the butt of the jokes usually. In S4 Spike was chipped and ended up seeking refuge with Giles and Xander; he got made fun (maybe deservingly) a lot.

But he gave gave as much as received, which allowed him to keep some dignity.

Seriously adressing Anya's colorful past would mean that they would treat Xander and his relationship with Anya seriously, something that they obviously refused to do in this season.

What do you mean this season? Anya is never treated seriously, except for Selfless and The Wish. She existed in some sitcom zone of her own. I love her as comic relief but as a character she is a disaster, IMO.

 

[Doppelgang]

This is quite an interesting question about why Xander was made a butt monkey in season 4. They definitely did underplay the whole dating a serial killer demon thing, his friends should have been much more concerned about this early on, and it was partly why it seemed so shocking and out of context when Buffy all of a sudden decides she needs to kill Anya in Selfless without there having been any debate or discussion about it.

I don't think they went too far in humiliating Xander generally speaking, it was only in the episode superstar where this seemed a bit extreme to me. But they were under a spell in this episode and so it was this that led to him manifesting extra loser-like behaviour, but the other characters did so too in this episode: Anya reading Jonathan's book, Giles having Jonathan's calendar and being ashamed of it. Only Buffy seemed to break free of the spell to some extent in this episode. So I think overal it was just one of the themes of season 4 that Xander came to symbolise, although he has patterns of it on and off in most seasons, the zeppo, bewitched, bothered and bewildered, Buffy vs Dracula. After this episode things start to change and he starts to become a more grown up character- triangle, into the woods, the gift and so on. So they treated his story with respect overal in the series, and thats more important that what happens in one season in my opinion. Although they did treat him with more respect again towards the end of season 4 Yoko Factor, Primeval, and particularly Restless where we get to see him struggling with some of his inner demons.

What do you mean this season? Anya is never treated seriously, except for Selfless and The Wish. She existed in some sitcom zone of her own. I love her as comic relief but as a character she is a disaster, IMO.

She's treated seriously also in Entropy, Hells Bells, Older and Far Away, Doppelgangland, Chosen, Storyteller, there's probably more but those all come to mind immediately. They had her killed off in Chosen!, how could you miss that one?

 

[Icarium]

She's treated seriously also in Entropy

You mean the episode where Anya's attempts to trick Xander's friends into wishing for his death are treated as comedy? Yes, there are scenes were Anya is taken seriously here and there in the seasons she was around but they are very much the exception and that's why I listed only two episodes where she actually gets treated as the dangerous sociopath that she is, rather than Xander's girlfriend who at most could hurt somebody's feelings. It's more than a bit bizarre that Buffy objects less to Xander dating Anya than to him dating Cordelia (hello, topic!).

 

[Doppelgang]

You mean the episode where Anya's attempts to trick Xander's friends into wishing for his death are treated as comedy? Yes, there are scenes were Anya is taken seriously here and there in the seasons she was around but they are very much the exception and that's why I listed only two episodes where she actually gets treated as the dangerous sociopath that she is, rather than Xander's girlfriend who at most could hurt somebody's feelings. It's more than a bit bizarre that Buffy objects less to Xander dating Anya than to him dating Cordelia (hello, topic!).

Her frustration here in her attempts leads later in the episode to her sense of hopelessness, looking for Halfrek to console her and then sharing her pain with Spike, which was the more serious side to how this episode treats her character. Chosen, and Selfless and the ones I listed she is treated seriously for her attempts to be good and for her difficulties in forming a human identity etc.. Quite a serious issue for alot of people out there. This, anyway makes for a separate topic, but of course you chose to bring it up here.