3/27-4/2 Episode Discussion led by TaylorSwift

[TaylorSwift]

So..I've always had an issue with how CONFLICTS are treated in Buffy.

I mean fights, discussions, spats..whatever. Do you think they were handled well? Were the characters represented well? Were they coherent with their actions? Did the making-up or the resolving of the issues seemed too quick to you or handled badly?
When I think about this I have in mind Dead Men's Party or The Yoko Factor mainly or the discussions when Xander accuses Buffy of something, you know.


Share your opinions and discuss away!

Episodes to review: (not all of them ahaha) Dead Men's Party, Becoming Pt.1, Revelations, The Yoko Factor/Primeval, Selfless, Empty Places/Touched.

 

[Doppelgang]

I'll just post some some initial thoughts for now:

I think some of the conflicts were really necessary for the sake, not of splitting the group up, but actually for making them even closer in the long run. By expressing their differences and getting them out on the table, in particular dead mans party, yoko factor it allowed them to then be more understanding and sympathetic of each others own personal battles.

 

[zobothehobo]

Sometimes it really bothered me that the characters could do and say thing that were just HORRIBLE to each other and then never speak of it again. That's probably one of the biggest reasons Dead Man's Party infuriates me like it does. Because after everyone ATTACKS Buffy and tells her how they really feel... that's it. It also REALLY pissed me off that in Selfless when Buffy FINALLY finds out that "kick his ass" was Xander's idea... we get a "I never said that" from Willow and that's IT. It's like after they argue their brains get erased and they forget EVERYTHING said. That really bothers me. I'm a big "closure person."

 

[brinkster130]

I think that conflicts within a group are bound to happen sooner or later; especially because they are all involved in pretty stressful situations in which they all have different opinions on how best to handle the situations.

The conflicts themselves didn't bother me, but at times I was a bit disappointed in how the aftermath was handled. There were several times when I wish they would have discussed their argument rather than sweeping it under the rug. A simple "I'm sorry" or "I shouldn't have said that" would have been enough in most cases.

 

[Icarium]

Conflicts were great back when everybody had a point and everybody was wrong a bit too but the writing wasn't slanted to manipulate you into rooting for one side or the other (When She Was Bad, Revelations, Becoming, Dead Man's Party, etc). When the writers started turning them into cases of "Buffy's miraculously right because we say so" ("The Gift", "Lies Joss Whedon Told Me", "Empty Places") I hated that.

 

[The Unspoken]

Sometimes it really bothered me that the characters could do and say thing that were just HORRIBLE to each other and then never speak of it again. That's probably one of the biggest reasons Dead Man's Party infuriates me like it does. Because after everyone ATTACKS Buffy and tells her how they really feel... that's it. It also REALLY pissed me off that in Selfless when Buffy FINALLY finds out that "kick his ass" was Xander's idea... we get a "I never said that" from Willow and that's IT. It's like after they argue their brains get erased and they forget EVERYTHING said. That really bothers me. I'm a big "closure person."

Well, even without closure, Buffy managed to come across as a moron in 'Selfless' just fine. Thanks to Angelus, Kendra was just killed, Giles was kidnapped (and possibly killed) and Willow was almost knocked into a coma. Oh, and he was about to suck the world into hell. 'Kick his ass' was as appropriate a response as any. Besides, Angel was re-ensouled at the last minute, so Buffy knew that Willow was on her side. And he was brought back through the power of deus ex machina a few months anyway. Buffy resenting Willow for the 'kick his ass' line, let alone still remembering it after five years, makes no sense whatsoever other than establishing her IQ has dropped by a 100 or so points.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Well, even without closure, Buffy managed to come across as a moron in 'Selfless' just fine. Thanks to Angelus, Kendra was just killed, Giles was kidnapped (and possibly killed) and Willow was almost knocked into a coma. Oh, and he was about to suck the world into hell. 'Kick his ass' was as appropriate a response as any. Besides, Angel was re-ensouled at the last minute, so Buffy knew that Willow was on her side. And he was brought back through the power of deus ex machina a few months anyway. Buffy resenting Willow for the 'kick his ass' line, let alone still remembering it after five years, makes no sense whatsoever other than establishing her IQ has dropped by a 100 or so points.

In Selfless Buffy was just stating that Willow encouraged her to kill Angel with that line, she never indicates that she resent it. And "Kick his ass" could've been a proper response as any IF Willow hadn't said another thing. Xander changed her quote because he let his personal feelings over everything..he twisted someone else's words. That doesn't seem fair to the person who wanted to deliver the quote and the person who receives it so I don't seem to understand why you would call Buffy a moron...so what if she remembers the quote? It was a pivotal moment and it increases her IQ, if anything else.

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

I think that conflicts within a group are bound to happen sooner or later; especially because they are all involved in pretty stressful situations in which they all have different opinions on how best to handle the situations.

The conflicts themselves didn't bother me, but at times I was a bit disappointed in how the aftermath was handled. There were several times when I wish they would have discussed their argument rather than sweeping it under the rug. A simple "I'm sorry" or "I shouldn't have said that" would have been enough in most cases.

I completely agree with you. I'm all for conflicts if they're realistic and they make the character grow or simply understand each other's point of view but the things left unresolved, that's what I never understood. I get that an episode has a certain amount of time and a plot to follow but many of the conflicts were resolved with just a look..in the real world, you don't make up with a look (unless it's something really stupid). During many of the fights the characters said how they really felt and while there's a certain way to tell things...they just assumed it was rage talking when really, it wasn't..so that's why I thought of this theme...for me, how conflicts were treated and represented it was one of the biggest mistake on Buffy...and there aren't many.

 

[The Unspoken]

In Selfless Buffy was just stating that Willow encouraged her to kill Angel with that line, she never indicates that she resent it. And "Kick his ass" could've been a proper response as any IF Willow hadn't said another thing. Xander changed her quote because he let his personal feelings over everything..he twisted someone else's words. That doesn't seem fair to the person who wanted to deliver the quote and the person who receives it

That's great. But since Buffy doesn't visit any message boards where she would see people were still complaining about the lie never being addressed, she has no way of knowing this. And that's why she does come across as a moron.

I completely agree with you. I'm all for conflicts if they're realistic and they make the character grow or simply understand each other's point of view

But they do. For example, everyone trusts Buffy's judgment on Angel after 'Revelations', or at least tolerates it. Actions speak louder than words, especially when faced with life and death situations on a frequent basis.

 

[TaylorSwift]

That's great. But since Buffy doesn't visit any message boards where she would see people were still complaining about the lie never being addressed, she has no way of knowing this. And that's why she does come across as a moron.

I think your comment doesn't make any sense for me, like at all. She has no way of knowing we talk about this? I'm sorry, it's a fictional character and this makes her a moron? Like I said, I can't understand what you're talking about..maybe it's just me.

But they do. For example, everyone trusts Buffy's judgment on Angel after 'Revelations', or at least tolerates it. Actions speak louder than words, especially when faced with life and death situations on a frequent basis.

Not always...and yes, actions speak louder but I'm just saying it's not realistic and the Scoobies had no problem questioning Buffy at every step. I'm not saying they didn't grow withing conflicts or there was no development for the characters. I'm just stating that, for me, some things are not resolved properly when HUGE issues are brought up and forgot within a minute.

 

[brinkster130]

Buffy resenting Willow for the 'kick his ass' line, let alone still remembering it after five years, makes no sense whatsoever other than establishing her IQ has dropped by a 100 or so points.

I agree with the resenting Willow part, but I can see why Buffy would remember the incident five years later. Angel was her first love and killing someone you care about has to be pretty traumatic. IMO her forgetting about it would have been unbelievable.

 

[Icarium]

I agree with the resenting Willow part, but I can see why Buffy would remember the incident five years later. Angel was her first love and killing someone you care about has to be pretty traumatic. IMO her forgetting about it would have been unbelievable.

Still, it would have been more believable than Buffy thinking Willow would say "kick his ass" and then proceed to do the spell. If Buffy remembered what Xander said (so many things happened that I think it's very plausible she didn't) she should have concluded that he lied, which is why her surprise in Selfless seems so silly. The whole thing just seems like really bad fanfic, a new writer trying to show off with some piece of continuity porn that was wildly out of place and never led to anything. And in any event the time to address that issue was Dead Man's Party or Faith Hope and Trick, not four years later.

 

[brinkster130]

Still, it would have been more believable than Buffy thinking Willow would say "kick his ass" and then proceed to do the spell. If Buffy remembered what Xander said (so many things happened that I think it's very plausible she didn't) she should have concluded that he lied, which is why her surprise in Selfless seems so silly. The whole thing just seems like really bad fanfic, a new writer trying to show off with some piece of continuity porn that was wildly out of place and never led to anything. And in any event the time to address that issue was Dead Man's Party or Faith Hope and Trick, not four years later.

If I understand you correctly, then I think we are saying the same thing. I thought Buffy thinking Willow said "Kick his ass" is silly, I totally thought Buffy would have figured Xander made that up. And you are right, the time to bring that up was right after it happened rather than years later.

I guess the only difference in our opinions on this matter is that I think it is totally understandable that she would remember that line.

 

[zobothehobo]

Still, it would have been more believable than Buffy thinking Willow would say "kick his ass" and then proceed to do the spell. If Buffy remembered what Xander said (so many things happened that I think it's very plausible she didn't) she should have concluded that he lied, which is why her surprise in Selfless seems so silly. The whole thing just seems like really bad fanfic, a new writer trying to show off with some piece of continuity porn that was wildly out of place and never led to anything. And in any event the time to address that issue was Dead Man's Party or Faith Hope and Trick, not four years later.

I think Buffy probably thought that Willow said "kick his ass" before she decided to try the spell again. That would have made sense especially factoring the fact she trusted Xander. Not to mention... that was a highly emotional night and situation. I doubt there's much logic to it in Buffy's mind.

And I think it makes perfect sense she remembered it. I remember things said six years ago to me. I remember the infliction in the person's voice, I remember their facial expression, I remember my thoughts and feelings hearing their words, and I remember every word. Of course, that's no everything... just the important things that really, really shook me.

 

[Doppelgang]

Sometimes it really bothered me that the characters could do and say thing that were just HORRIBLE to each other and then never speak of it again. "

This kind thing of happens though all the time in real-life conflicts, because we all have to face our own battles, and we can't always talk about these things to other people. I think the fact that they made up after incidents such as in dead man's party and yoko factor in quite a slow, restrained way was quite realistic in line with how fundamental these conflicts were at the time. To make up quicker wouldn't have been a resolution it would have been one character submitting to the judgments of another character, which wouldn't be a realistic take for me on how conflicts are resolved between people.