30 Days of Bangel - pt2

Day 22: According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy?

As a soulless vampire, Angelus isn't capable of love, so no. But I do have a theory about what was going on. When Darla turned Liam, he was a man of many vices but no real passions. The only thing he seemed to care about at all was his little sister. That's why Angelus is so cold and calculating, while, for example, Spike is much more fiery (William, for all his foppishness, was all about passion). But then Angel fell in love with Buffy. So when Angelus came back, he had to deal with the passion left over from that love, and it consumed him as much as the love consumed Angel. Unable to comprehend or handle it, unable to defeat or possess Buffy, Angelus resorted to trying to have the world sucked into hell.
 
Day 22: According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy?

No. As others have said Angelus is obsessed with Buffy. He is obsessed with Buffy more so because he is a demon who has been chained up for a hundred years living under the burden of Angel's soul and he becomes obsessed with hurting those nearest and dearest to Angel. I think Angelus is a preservationist first, unlike Spike he is not one to go and face a slayer for the sport of it BUT he makes it his personal mission to torture Buffy, because of the love Angel felt for her.
 
Day 22 According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy?
No. She was his plaything and he toyed with her much like a cat toys with the mouse before killing it. Angelus knew he could hurt Buffy by killing her friends and with no friends Buffy would be vulnerable and isolated. That was how he tortured her. Angelus did all of this some of the time wearing Angel's face. It hurt Buffy more that way. Angelus planned on killing Buffy after he was through torturing her. We all know what happened next.
 
Day 22 : According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy ?

Totally! That's why he wanted to destroy her because he couldn't get rid of all the feelings Angel had of her. Like he said in Innocence:

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Does Angel or Buffy could live in a world where one of them is dead ?
They both have already, I think like any loss it's a hurdle they'd eventually jump over even though it's hard.
Imagine the scene between Buffy and Angel during season 6 of Buffy and 3 of Angel when they meet and we don't know more !
It's not a scene I really like to imagine much, Buffy describes it as "intense" and doesn't really seem like she enjoyed it much at all. I think being around Angel made Buffy realise how far she's fallen, I agree with others that Angel probably knew she was in heaven but didn't say anything when she told him she was in hell. Buffy probably felt guilty and confused about lying to Angel. It would have been an interesting but difficult scene to watch, maybe the writers couldn't even agree on what the scene would include.
According to you what is the most important thing that one has learned to the other ?
I think that even before Angel had spoken to Buffy, she'd shown him what being a true hero means. Angel taught Buffy what a true sacrifice is when he left her, and also when she was forced to kill him.
According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy ?
No, definitely not. Sure, Angelus was left with the residual from the love that Angel felt for Buffy but that was all, Angelus himself was only in love with hurting Buffy.
 
It seemed like in Forever that Angel realized that Buffy's life was not normal at that time and wanted to be with her and help her, but he couldn't

I see your point. I suppose when Angel left in s3 he says "I want you to have this normal life" and the question is does he give up on that normal life for her by s6 or does he remain against all odds insistent that she can have it still?

I hadn't thought of that before. From his behaviour in 'Forever' when he offers to stay, and his hope for a renewed relationship with Buffy in 'Chosen', he does seem to have changed his thinking about Buffy having a normal life without him. It makes far more sense than the idea that he just maintains his 'Prom' argument all the way through. I wish they'd explored that a bit more.

Day 22:
According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy?

No. Not even in the sense that even Spike or Dru were 'in love'. But I do think that there is more to the Angel/Angelus divide than simply Angel can love with a soul and can't without one. I love your post @Taaroko and I think you pretty much summed it up, but I'll add that while I think Angelus is incapable of 'loving' in an active way, I don't think he is incapable of knowing, or feeling love. It's just that he despises and rejects it with every fibre of his being. I think the fountain scene in IOHEFY was very telling. The love is inside him long after the ghost has left him: he feels it but can't understand it, so regards it as an infection. As Spike would say 'love isn't brains, it's blood'

I think this reaction is consistent with who he was. Liam had never known love. I think he loved his sister, but nobody else. (Incidentally even as Angelus he's quite good at taking people under his wing - perhaps that comes from actually being a good brother as a human?). He craved approval and affection but never got it, and so he turned his pain outward and indulged in vices knowingly and out of spite. His own feelings of worthlessness seem to have bred a resentment of the example of humanity that his life and everything in it comprised and this resentment of the humanity around him means that as a demon he strikes out more viciously at the world. Angel came to love Buffy's humanity and in return, as Angelus said, 'she made me feel like a human being'. As Taaroko says the residual passion is still there ('the same love will infect our hearts') and I think he is just as attracted to and admiring of Buffy as Angel was, but the memory of his love is something he just can't handle because the demon was formed from a man who never understood it either.

This brings me to a question: if the demon is essentially a blank slate which models itself on the memories and personality of the human, why is it not changed in some way by changes in Angel's experiences when he regains his human soul and does finally come to understand love? Is the personality the demon forms when originally sired somehow cemented as a baseline, which is why it violently rejects Angel's experience of love?
 
I hadn't thought of that before. From his behaviour in 'Forever' when he offers to stay, and his hope for a renewed relationship with Buffy in 'Chosen', he does seem to have changed his thinking about Buffy having a normal life without him. It makes far more sense than the idea that he just maintains his 'Prom' argument all the way through. I wish they'd explored that a bit more.

You know it’s interesting because I don’t think we often remember that Angel was quite naïve at the time that he left Sunnydale and he has learned a great deal about life since that time he left. He was in essence stunted in his emotional growth for much of his life Before Buffy due to his alienation, his inability to fully integrate into human life. But after he left and formed relationships, had his epiphany, I think his maturity allowed him to let go of that innocence and hope for this idealistic life that he wanted for her. And certainly her death was a wake up call that her life will never be normal despite what they both wanted at the time he left.

I think that where he is at the time of Chosen, because in Forever I still feel like he has his hesitation at the idea being together. But by the time of Chosen it feels like he saying “when you’re ready I’m here.”
 
You know it’s interesting because I don’t think we often remember that Angel was quite naïve at the time that he left Sunnydale and he has learned a great deal about life since that time he left. He was in essence stunted in his emotional growth for much of his life Before Buffy due to his alienation, his inability to fully integrate into human life. But after he left and formed relationships, had his epiphany, I think his maturity allowed him to let go of that innocence and hope for this idealistic life that he wanted for her. And certainly her death was a wake up call that her life will never be normal despite what they both wanted at the time he left.

I think that where he is at the time of Chosen, because in Forever I still feel like he has his hesitation at the idea being together. But by the time of Chosen it feels like he saying “when you’re ready I’m here.”
Now if only he had tried to get his curse fixed in that time as well. Stupid writers...
 
Day 19 : Does Angel or Buffy could live in a world where one of them is dead ?
Of course. It has been shown in both series. When Buffy killed Angel, it was a trauma for her, she ran away from home, she went to live in another city but she continued her life. She was still thinking of Angel, but as I said she continued to live and the more time progressed the less she suffered from his death.
Angel, when he learned about Buffy's death, it was a hit, but he survived too. His regret at being just not to have been there at the time of her death, not to have saved her. I also like her discussion with Cordelia about it.

Imagine the scene between Buffy and Angel during season 6 of Buffy and 3 of Angel when they meet and we don't know more !
Sigh .. 2 years ago I wrote something about it but it's so bad that I gave up before the end. I share it but I warn you it's bad. I am null in writing.

Buffy arrives at the place that Angel has told her. It was a hotel, not very luxurious, but it did not matter to her. She was going to see her first love, the one we never really forget. Perhaps this reunion would revive the flame of life that had died out at the time of her death and since then burned no more, even since her resurrection. Maybe Angel would make sense of her unease and come to comfort her. Or maybe he would not understand, maybe he would not awaken anything burning in her. Especially since all these assumptions were based on a big question: Will she tell him the truth? In any case, Buffy felt ready for this conversation, she had to anticipate the questions and she only had to elaborate the answers while deciding whether or not she wanted to answer them honestly. However, Buffy had not planned ...

Angel : Buffy!

...that Angel disturbs her in her thoughts.
She turned around, and he was there. Angel, the tall handsome vampire she will probably love all her life. Always so elegant, always so beautiful. She also noticed that he was still intimidating her.

Buffy : Angel.
Angel : Are..... you...... really here ?

He steps forward and takes Buffy in his arms. This surprised Buffy who did not expect something so demonstrative from Angel who was visually very happy but not to the point of losing his soul. Angel notices that Buffy seems disturbed.

Angel : Sorry .. To see you here, it seems so unreal. When Willow called me to tell me everything, I immediately wanted to see you. One part of me jumped for joy, the other part did not want to believe it. I needed to see you to believe it.
Buffy : a part of me still refuses to believe it ..
Angel : Are..... you okay ? Life again and all that goes with it, you get out of it ?

Buffy answered with some hesitation and a false-smile

Buffy : Yes. Completely. I was in a horrible place ! Dying was horrible, living is much more pleasant. I have my friends, Dawn, the slaying thing, I'm right in my life that I loved, adore. I am full of life !

but she noticed at Angel's expression that she had not managed to convince him. Then she suddenly felt that she was forced to say what she really felt, that for once she felt she had to do it because she was in front of a person in whom she knew she could trust and who could understand her.

Buffy : No ... not really. All of this is a lie. This false smile is a mask that does not reflect the truth. These words I have just pronounced have no meaning for me. All this new life is a lie. I do like everyone else, I play a role, I pretend that I love this world, that life is worth living. Life itself is a magnificent lie. Everything I do, everything I say, everything I see around me, nothing matters anymore, nothing feels right. I do not feel at home in this world. I must not be here.

Angel : That's not true. You may not feel it for now, but you're part of this world, Buffy. This world needs you, it's better with you. He needs "heroes" to do what is right. You have your place in this world Buffy ! I need you to be here in this world.
Buffy: Maybe it was true, but I made my decision ! To be here is not my will.
Angel : A choice ?
Buffy : Dying was not difficult, it was liberating ! I saved my sister, the world and...... myself. I always carry a heavy weight on my shoulders, all these responsibilities related to my role of Slayer.... but I had my mother, my friends, I knew that I was doing good around me, all this made my life easier to live. But after the death of my mother, I lost the strength to face life, I could not protect my relatives from Gloria, I lost faith in myself because I could not take care of Dawn properly in the manner of a sister or as my mother did. Gloria unleashed the apocalypse and I sacrificed myself. I did not act purely by duty, dying was also my will. This portal opening a door to other dimensions was more an access to freedom and rest for me. Finally I could rest, be peaceful. Life is a prison, death is liberation !
Angel : Life is the hardest and longest fights, Buffy. It is also a fight without a win because the defeat is inevitable but in this case it is not the result that counts, it is the path to get there. You have to be strong, fight for what is right, you have the right to fall and want to give up, it's human and understandable, but you have to get up and when you get a second chance you have to take it ! It's a lesson you taught me.
Buffy : I do not think I'm always that person.
Angel : You're still the same person I loved Buffy. I know that you have an inexhaustible reserve of energy in you, you have strength to spare, I have seen it, I still see it today, I have always had immense confidence in you, I know what you are capable of ! You are an extraordinary woman Buffy. You must have faith in yourself.
Buffy : It sounds like something my mother could have told me.
Angel : It's because you inspired her Buffy, you inspire me. You're inspiring the world !

And I stopped there.. I know it's bad writing. But I kept it because I'm a bit attached to it.


Day 21 : According to you what is the most important thing that one has learned to the other ?
Buffy learned to Angel being strong, to not give up.
Angel learned Buffy to build herself.

Day 22 : According to you, was Angelus in love with Buffy ?
If we consider that the obsession is love, then yes he was in love with Buffy but in his own way. If we consider that the obsession is not love, then I think that for him she represented an obsessional desire. Something he wanted to own.


Day 23 : Favorite Bangelus scene ?

Hearbreaking scene but definitely a powerful one

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Also, a memorable one :

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Grace
Grace
Thank you for sharing!
Day 23: Favorite Buffy/Angelus scene?
The "Becoming" fight is excellent, but I'll throw in a plug for the mall fight after Buffy blows up the Judge. That one was fun.
 
Day 23: Favorite Bangelus scene?
I have a lot of favorite scenes, but they are all taken so I choose the one from Passion where Angelus is waiting for Buffy's home when she comes from the grocery store. He engages her in conversation and tries to follow Joyce into the house, but can't due to the fact that Willow is finishing up the Invitation Revocation Spell. Buffy stands in the doorway looking at Angel who looks mad.
Buffy: "Sorry, Angel. Changed the locks." Buffy slams the door in Angelus's face.
 
[Nov 28] Day 23 : Favorite Bangelus scene ? I don't like the concept of Bangelus, I don't like the dynamic and I don't particularly enjoy scenes with Buffy facing off against Angelus.

[Nov 29] Day 24 : Most underrated Bangel episode ? What's My Line, probably because of all the other plotlines running throughout the episode. But I really adore all the Bangel moments scattered throughout this two-parter, such as Buffy kissing Angel while he's in vamp mode, or her cradling a weakened Angel in her arms after rescuing him from Spike and Drusilla.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
I adore "What's My Line".
[Nov 28] Day 23 : Favorite Bangelus scene ? I don't like the concept of Bangelus, I don't like the dynamic and I don't particularly enjoy scenes with Buffy facing off against Angelus.

I think 'bangelus' is referring to the character dynamic rather then them as an actual ship.

And why don't you like them? It's so crucial to the whole show!! I can understand not enjoying it because how painful it is for Buffy but are you not even fascinated by it as a piece of storytelling?!
 
Antho
Antho
You're right :)
I think 'bangelus' is referring to the character dynamic rather then them as an actual ship.

And why don't you like them? It's so crucial to the whole show!! I can understand not enjoying it because how painful it is for Buffy but are you not even fascinated by it as a piece of storytelling?!
I was more referring to not liking it in a shipping/romantic sense. The storyline is definitely well done and adds some much-needed layers to Angel's character. But it's not exactly fun to watch Buffy suffer through that whole period.
 
Day 24 : Most underrated Bangel episode ?

Sanctuary, maybe? No one likes Bangel in this episode but I find their new dynamic interesting. It's the awkward we're-exes-now phase, but it's a necessary step to their new and improved friendship that we see in The Yoko Factor and Forever, End of Days/Chosen. Sanctuary kinds of highlights Angel's pain and allows him to fight back. Most of Bangel is about Buffy's pain, happiness, desires, and Sanctuary is a like a role reversal because Buffy is the one who gets painted as "the bad guy". However, Buffy does get really caught up in her own business sometimes and I liked how Angel called her out on it. A bit nasty, yes, yet it also made clear that those two were still in love... so there's that...
 
Day 24 : Most underrated Bangel episode ?

I'm so excited to answer this question! I feel very strongly that "Choices" is an incredibly underrated episode for Bangel episode.

1. We see them fighting together in the opening scene. Love the dynamic here. "Sorry Honey." Both of them making quick work of the vamps.
2. They have a typical relationship conversation about "being in a rut" and Angel in typical guy form is like "What about that fire demon nest in the caves near the beach? Thought that was a nice change of pace." And granted its foreshadowing something bigger but still it feels like a very REAL relationship conversations you have with your SO.
3. I love seeing Angel work TOGETHER with the Scoobies, seeing him and Buffy trying to pull off the mission impossible stunt which I find really funny and it goes wrong and seeing them again engage in the fight together. For some reason, this whole fight scene is great, I love how they throw the box back and forth and fight as a team, its very in sync and it just shows that even if we haven't seen it they are great at this stuff (gives me a glimpse of what life could have been like...)
4. There is a scene in here somewhere where the scoobies are walking back into the library (which I think I mentioned upstream), both Buffy and Angel walk into the library together in step. Both focused on the mission and working on the problem together. Angel feels very confident to me and he is starting to look more like Buffy's partner, her equal. Its a subtle thing but I notice it more and more on re-watch. Maybe this was their way of showing us that he is a hero in his own right.
5. I love how Angel tries to mediate the tension with regards to Giles/Wesley/Buffy arguing over what to do with the box.
6. I love Angel's line "Yeah I like them sane" making it clear that he wasn't going to go falling for Faith.
7. And yes, I even like the Mayor's speech because these are real issues they are going to have to deal with (these are also issues Buffy and any vampire boyfriend will have to deal with).

I think this episode tries to communicate to us all of the behind the scene stuff maybe we don't get front and center on the show because of all of the other stuff going on. But it shows us that Buffy and Angel have a comfortable fighting rhythm, although its implied Angel and Buffy work together it shows us how they work together and how they are true partners. They do things together off camera we don't see (like go to the caves near the beach to fight fire demons). Even the very last scene when they are in denial over their problems, they are laying down on a little picnic blanket and its like they are having a little date. They are just a typical guy and girl in a relationship dealing with their problems, only their problem is a rather big one...

If one day miraculously they could overcome those problems (immortality/curse), and we could see them together working side by side in the way they do so on this episode I feel like they would be so fun to watch.
 
A bit nasty, yes, yet it also made clear that those two were still in love... so there's that...

I have always felt this way about Sanctuary. If Buffy had come in all disinterested it would have shown she had totally moved on but that little back and forth at the end however ugly it was just shows you that these two still are still in love which is why they are throwing jabs at each other. Especially Buffy throwing Riley in Angel's face.
 
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Grace
Grace
I feel the need to cheer after this! *wild applause*
Uh-oh, the double post got me. I am not wildly applauding Buffy throwing Riley in Angel's face (though I agree the fight scene shows how deeply they still care). The applause goes to @dcai0830's rousing post about Choices. 🙂
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Eeek sorry!
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