@Stoney Very much agree about how wonderful S9 Spike/Dawn were, and how Dawn's fading away is what bought Spike back rather than anything to do directly with Buffy. I also agree about Spike in S7 not wanting to show weakness, or feeling that any sort of apology would be enough to make up for what he did, but there is a scene in Get It Done (IIRC) where Spike is thrown through the ceiling by the demon and Dawn says she will go and see if he is ok. I've always imagined that when they were alone together, while she was checking on him, they had a short conversation and Dawn forgave him. Spike need not have said anything, but in my head Dawn says she gives him a second chance and she probably wouldn't try to set him on fire now 😀
31 Days of (Christmas) Spuffy
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I think that Spike's insanity in the basement was about both the First Evil and the torment of dealing with his remorse and the memories of what he'd done unsouled. Isolated and tormented by his own mind meant that the added torture of physical apparitions from The First just made his grasp on reality more difficult. So once he's out of the basement and distanced from the additional manipulations, gaining support and contact with tangible people and real interactions, it eases that sense of madness, even if it doesn't end the internal torment over his past which we see him address later when talking to Buffy. I don't think it ever for me seemed like the insanity and struggle was less about remorse because The First Evil was making it more difficult. It couldn't actually make him insane I don't think, it was just making it harder to deal with what he was already feeling and thinking and how he was already struggling with thoughts of his victims/past.
A bit like the Spike/Dawn aspect, although I wouldn't have minded the AR being addressed more specifically, I think it was realistic in their reactions to each other and the change they were both accepting and dealing with that it wasn't beyond the references that we did get. I also think it is good characterisation for Buffy to try to approach things practically and with strength and for Spike to try to focus forwards as much as he is able. As I always say, I think S7 was deliberately about moving forwards and positively empowering people, supporting and strengthening them in a contrast to the most negative aspect of what happened between them in S6. Them both accepting the change in Spike, how meaningful it was and seeing him figure out how he can forge a path for himself with who he is now is right to be the focus I think. That the AR then is something that years later is raised between them and the potential residual trauma that Buffy is dealing with under the surface feels very real to me. It fits with the characterisation of how she deals with difficulties I think and it makes the impact of it have some meaningful weight because it can be raised as a trauma years later because it couldn't be totally buried and also because it wasn't dealt with straight away.
@Priceless, I like your idea of seeing that scene and that it could be Dawn offered some understanding but with Spike not saying much, if anything. It works well with things still not being totally at ease between them at first. 😀
I haven't really been answering the previous questions, cause I've just been sick as a dog (seriously dizzy and running a fever, not fun 🙁) but since I put forth this question, I'll try and participate this time 🙂
While I wouldn't say that I dislike S7, I certainly don't feel as strongly about it as a lot of other Spufflings, but maybe that'll change during my re-watch. That being said...
If we remove FE as the Big Bad, we ultimately remove the Potential storyline, as well. Some might question; who will be the Big Bad, then? Does there have to be one? It is the last season, why not change things up? Life was supposed to be the Big Bad of S6, but then Willow turned evil and now that's considered the 'season of Darth!Willow' instead.
In S7, most of the festering wounds opened in S6 still haven't been healed, there are bad feelings, distrust and paranoia going through the gang, especially once both Willow and Spike return to the group. If S7 was just about the personal relationships of the gang - with or without the return of Giles - I think there are so many ways they could have gone with that.
Xander and Anya needed closure - I would have loved to see Anya remain a demon and Xander finally work through his bigotry to accept that, whether as her friend or if they got back together. He already matured so much in S7, was more accepting of Spike for example, but we could've definitely seen more of that.
I agree that Spike and Dawn interaction would've been brilliant, but more than that I wanted to see a lot of Spike and Willow interacting, because I think they could have helped each other so much with their trauma, Spike with his brand new soul, Willow reeling from what she did just a few months ago; I think that could have made for a beautiful friendship, tbh.
And, of course, some Spuffy that actually deals more with their past, not just the AR, but also Buffy's beatdown of Spike in Dead Things. What Spike tried to do in SR is horrible and there is no excuse, but that doesn't mean that Buffy gets off scot-free when it comes to her own abusive part in their relationship.
And wow this turned out longer than I meant it to 🙂
While I wouldn't say that I dislike S7, I certainly don't feel as strongly about it as a lot of other Spufflings, but maybe that'll change during my re-watch. That being said...
If we remove FE as the Big Bad, we ultimately remove the Potential storyline, as well. Some might question; who will be the Big Bad, then? Does there have to be one? It is the last season, why not change things up? Life was supposed to be the Big Bad of S6, but then Willow turned evil and now that's considered the 'season of Darth!Willow' instead.
In S7, most of the festering wounds opened in S6 still haven't been healed, there are bad feelings, distrust and paranoia going through the gang, especially once both Willow and Spike return to the group. If S7 was just about the personal relationships of the gang - with or without the return of Giles - I think there are so many ways they could have gone with that.
Xander and Anya needed closure - I would have loved to see Anya remain a demon and Xander finally work through his bigotry to accept that, whether as her friend or if they got back together. He already matured so much in S7, was more accepting of Spike for example, but we could've definitely seen more of that.
I agree that Spike and Dawn interaction would've been brilliant, but more than that I wanted to see a lot of Spike and Willow interacting, because I think they could have helped each other so much with their trauma, Spike with his brand new soul, Willow reeling from what she did just a few months ago; I think that could have made for a beautiful friendship, tbh.
And, of course, some Spuffy that actually deals more with their past, not just the AR, but also Buffy's beatdown of Spike in Dead Things. What Spike tried to do in SR is horrible and there is no excuse, but that doesn't mean that Buffy gets off scot-free when it comes to her own abusive part in their relationship.
And wow this turned out longer than I meant it to 🙂
Spuffy freak
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You said it What I always wanted to but was not courageous enough to say something bad about the heroine. I never hated Buffy I love her actually she is 2nd my most fav female TV character ever but that part in dead things is just... you know, that and Giles planning with Wood to kill Spike is something that I as a fan need a better explanation and an apology. AR has been taken care of in both the show and the comics, but there are other characters too that even after having the soul and everything really didn't behave that well and still got the clean chit without that issue ever coming up. This includes Xander's behavior with Anya too, but it was given a perfect closure in s10 so I am satisfied with that and I have forgiven Xander, I still can't shake feeling like Giles is more "Ripper" and has some sadistic nature in him, from a father figure to that really needs to be taken care of.
I agree with @Stoney on the Spike/Dawn issue, though maybe for different reasons. To me Dawn was the only person who stood up against Spike and made very clear, that soul or not soul, she would not give him a pass, if he hurt her sister ever again.
That was very brave on the one hand and on the other hand it was almost the only addressing of the AR scene in season7.
To me the continuing rift between Spike and Dawn was absolutely necessary (altough sad), to make clear, that what had happened in that bathroom was damn serious. Had they had , a teary reconciliation just before the battle against the First Evil, it would have belittled the impact of Dawns attitude towards Spike during season 7.
flow
That was very brave on the one hand and on the other hand it was almost the only addressing of the AR scene in season7.
To me the continuing rift between Spike and Dawn was absolutely necessary (altough sad), to make clear, that what had happened in that bathroom was damn serious. Had they had , a teary reconciliation just before the battle against the First Evil, it would have belittled the impact of Dawns attitude towards Spike during season 7.
flow
GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
I like S7 so I'm not rewriting either. My we're an agreeable lot! I too would trade the potentials for more time for Willow, Xander, dawn and Anya. And I too love dawn as spike's little sister. What can I say? We spuffies have impeccable taste.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
If someone asks me to rewrite season 7, I will immediately write a scene where Buffy explicitly forgives thanks Willow for bringing her back to life.
Good point about Dawn @flow It always bugged me that Spike went to see Buffy after Dawn had gone to talk to him. I can't imagine what that must have felt like for Dawn.
Good point about Dawn @flow It always bugged me that Spike went to see Buffy after Dawn had gone to talk to him. I can't imagine what that must have felt like for Dawn.
Spuffy freak
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Is this today's question? I didnt understand the dream sequence in dead things I know there was a lot of symbolism and stuff like that going on but I am not smart enough and seriously that much naked Spike would make your brain stop working so plz some smart Spuffier explain that dream sequence to me
I actually wanted to ask something else, but I`ll keep that for another day. We still have 23 days to go 🙂
Day 8: Is the scene, where Spike is handcuffed a flashback to something that has really happened or a dream about something, Buffy desired, but what never happened ?
I`ll wait for your thoughts before I answer this question myself 🙂
flow
Day 8: Is the scene, where Spike is handcuffed a flashback to something that has really happened or a dream about something, Buffy desired, but what never happened ?
Well in all honesty I'm not sure what is going on, but Buffy also dreamt that Spike came to her in her bed, and I doubt that happend in reality. I think the handcuff dream isn't about sex at all, or about a sex act Buffy wanted to perform. (Although they probably have done that)
I think it's more about control, and that Buffy's world was spinning out of her control and she wanted some of that control back. Spike was in handcuffs and Buffy's on top, for Buffy she may see that as the ultimate control over Spike, who she blames for the choices she makes.
She puts the blame on him, even though I believe it was her choice to wear the handcuffs (the rubbing of her wrists means to me that she wore them) and her crying to Tara about 'why do I let him to these things to me'. Buffy feels out of control, she doesn't understand the choices she's making or why, so she blames Spike because that's easier for her then to look too closely as her own choices and motivations.
Spike morphs into Katrina, and maybe Buffy thinks her loss of control is what got Katrina killed??
Well in all honesty I'm not sure what is going on, but Buffy also dreamt that Spike came to her in her bed, and I doubt that happend in reality. I think the handcuff dream isn't about sex at all, or about a sex act Buffy wanted to perform. (Although they probably have done that)
I think it's more about control, and that Buffy's world was spinning out of her control and she wanted some of that control back. Spike was in handcuffs and Buffy's on top, for Buffy she may see that as the ultimate control over Spike, who she blames for the choices she makes.
She puts the blame on him, even though I believe it was her choice to wear the handcuffs (the rubbing of her wrists means to me that she wore them) and her crying to Tara about 'why do I let him to these things to me'. Buffy feels out of control, she doesn't understand the choices she's making or why, so she blames Spike because that's easier for her then to look too closely as her own choices and motivations.
Spike morphs into Katrina, and maybe Buffy thinks her loss of control is what got Katrina killed??
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Stoney
I've never really thought about it but this sounds good to me. :D
Spuffy freak
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That makes sense. Why do you think she asks Katrina Do you trust me? And then kills her and was also about to stake Spike. Those were the scenes I couldnt understand
I don't understand it either. Do you think Buffy feels guilt for killing Katrina and also for how she's treating Spike? Are Spike and Katrina the same person in her dream? Buffy blames Spike for what he makes her do (that's from her pov) but she also has guilt for feeling that way? And deep down she knows he doesn't make her do anything she doesn't want to do and she feels guilty for blaming him when she knows, deep down, it's all her own choice . . .
Sorry @Spuffy freak I'm rambling now 😳 What do you think it's all about?
Spuffy freak
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I have no clue, maybe she sees herself as a monster and very bad person and believes that no one should trust her not even Spike cuz she is a killer? but seriously I won't understand symbolism even if it dances naked around me so have no idea, we need @TriBel research on this
Puppet
Great use of the Spike emoticon :)
GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
I always thought that was a memory not a flash back. What ever it was it was Hot with a capital T.
TriBel
Scooby
OMG! Do you guys have an idea how complicated this episode is!? Anyone who has this as their favourite episode is perverse (not sexually perverse - just perverse in a sucker for punishment sort of way - and not that sort of punishment!).
Psychoanalysis 101 (apologies if this is patronising) Freud called dreams the "royal road to the unconscious". In sleep the ego's defences are weakened and repressed or unconscious fears, wishes and fantasies can come to the surface. It's also the psychic space for working through events of the day. Therefore, her dream probably consists of both flashbacks and desires. However, what we relate or remember of a dream is its manifest content (this tends to be recent material). Psychic defences disguise its latent meaning (unconscious wishes etc.) using dream work. Dream-work includes condensation (joining several ideas/images into one) displacement (transforming the person/object of concern into someone else) and secondary elaboration (the unconscious imposes a logical order on the wish-fulfilling images. This masks the latent content and makes the event seem believable.
The thing is – the dream is probably no less rational than the rest of the episode. The story is being told using the exact same techniques of dream-work. It's rather like having a dream in which you dream about dreaming. In fact, if the episode had ended "then she woke up", I'd have believed it.
For instance, the prologue is very fragmented - no logical connection between the flashbacks (that I can see). However, each fragment can be displaced onto someone else - for example BUFFY: So you three have, what, banded together to be pains in my ass? WARREN: We're your arch-nemesises. BUT - it could be Buffy displacing her anger at the Scoobies (because they're the ones she unconsciously blames for bringing her back; for not being there for her and forcing her to turn to Spike or, conversely, for stopping her being with him) onto the Trio (ties in nicely with The Killer in Me when Will's own unconscious transforms her into Warren). Similarly, when Buffy says "Willow has a problem", it could be Buffy admitting she has a problem. Interestingly, the prologue begins "ANYA: I think we screwed it up. WILLOW: She's just ... disoriented from being tormented in some hell dimension" and ends with this: SPIKE: Things have changed. BUFFY: The only thing that's different is that I'm disgusted with myself". Whether this is telling a story in its own right is anyone's guess.
Okay - Warren features strongly and because of "Seeing Red" it's easy to align him with Spike. In fact, all the Trio actually see red because they're wearing red goggles. But - Warren says he'll share Katrina with Jonathan and Andrew - which doesn't fit with Spike wanting to isolate Buffy (Is Buffy Warren - does she really want to "come out" - share her secret with her friends?). Warren takes Katrina into a room described as "very red: red sheets on the bed, red lava lamp, red wall-coverings". I googled "Red Room": “A red room is a composite urban legend. It is allegedly a hidden website or service on the "Deep Web" where you can see and/or participate in interactive torture or murder. It is essentially the snuff film legend retold for the YouTube era”. Red room - RationalWiki. This ties in with her "dream". Studies have been done on why people access Red Room type material (in her case - dream about them). "Oliver & Raney, 2011 discuss several reasons individuals may generally seek out negative content, including fulfilling cathartic and purging needs, making downward social comparisons, maintaining bad moods, and learning information that may ultimately help one deal with negative or unhappy circumstances". Red Room is also a short story by HG Wells (this I knew) about a haunted room that's not really haunted except in the imagination of the protagonist - it's haunted by fear itself. The latter can be read in several different ways. There's also a red room in - Avengers: Age of Ultron "where Black Widow was trained as a child to be a spy for the KGB; graduation consisted of surgical sterilization to remove the distraction of reproduction". I trust I don't have to mention the director?
Warren also says "We have two problems. The body, and the Slayer". Spike of course has these problems but so does Buffy - and in Buffy's case - "the body" also refers to Joyce. It may be that Joyce is the determining factor here because I'd argue that Buffy's guilt is to do with feeling she failed her mum (see Intervention).
Oh...this is the exchange in the Bronze when she declines to join her friends on the dance floor: "BUFFY: I think I'll catch the next Soul Train out.
XANDER: You sure? BUFFY: Oh, yeah, you know, (holding up her empty plastic cup) glass all the way empty. More nectar required.
XANDER: Cool, well, shimmy on out when you're done lubricating". She starts towards the bar, changes her mind and goes up to the balcony. I claim the 5th amendment here - work the symbolism out for yourself! 😱 Whether it's the writers simply being indulgent, whether the idea of joining Spike was already in her head or whether they conversation motivated her - I have no idea. Just before the exchange with Xander is this: "Willow: "We know you've been all tied up. Buffy startles at this, looking guilty". He's obviously on her mind.
Haven't got as far as the actual dream yet! 🙁 @Priceless - THIS is a ramble!
. Except this is probably an own goal - I think I meant irrational or surreal.
Priceless
If the Spuffies were a footie team, you'd be Ronaldo, you are that good lol
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
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TriBel
Scooby
I agree. The shooting script says "He moves in close behind her, naked under the blankets. She gasps awake, her face strained with fear and guilt". Then "He kisses her neck, softly, gently. She shudders, pulling him close. She kisses him, searching for solace. Her kisses become hard and hungry as she rolls on top of him". She seems to be running the whole gamut of emotions. Fear and guilt? Why? Over Katrina? That's their secret but I don't think it's just that. Their relationship is also a secret. I'm wondering whether the fear and guilt is because it's her house. The house needn't be the bricks and mortar place. It could be "home" the place she shares with her friends and Dawn (her "human", "normal existence) and before that Joyce. Alternatively, it could be "her" - the place were "she" lives. The body that "houses" her soul/spirit?
Oh bloody hell! Katrina means "Pure" and is a variant of Kathleen. Angel's sister was Kathy but also there was Kathy Newman, the demon girl who tried to steal her soul and made her psychotic. I wish they'd stop reusing names!
I think so but I'm now also wondering if she's Buffy as well? I mentioned Joyce and Buffy feeling guilty about Joyce because there's an "involuntary memory" at the beginning of The Body. This exchange happens. JOYCE: (quietly to Buffy) You are a demon child. BUFFY: I live to torment you, is that so wrong?" It's said as a joke but out of context I think it sounds really ominous. I always presumed it lodged in her unconscious as a fear that she'd let Joyce down (see Intervention). She says to Dawn "I know I haven't been everything I should be ... everything Mom was." Also - the Katrina episode was the one before The Body so you can see how her unconscious could condense the two events together.
There's this exchange immediately before it cuts to the bedroom:
JONATHAN: (bitterly) Well, the night's young. Gotta be some more girls we could kill. WARREN: We stick to the plan! Buffy thinks she killed Katrina. Well, it's her problem now.
And yes!
Her "plan" - her rational explanation of why she's with Spike - is she's using him. But she's also taking solace in him - so physical desire and emotional support. We saw at the beginning of the episode that she was beginning to thaw. And they were discussing her bedroom! She was, in effect, on the verge of letting him in - until he mentioned "animal", reminding her she was a demon child. If she's upfront about Spike, she fears her friends reactions will confirm she's monstrous. The episode is called "Dead Things". Everybody is "dead" - Spike, Katrina, Joyce - and Buffy feels her humanity is also dead. I'm not sure the staking of Spike is wishing him dead - it could be more to do with taking back control? As with the being on top - and the handcuffs? Is she beginning to feel guilty about the way she's treating Spike? Does she feel she's killing him - as she did Katrina? But both deserve it because they're demons? Vacillation is supported by the "hand on door scene" - she goes to the door and then turns away, trying to convince herself he's evil.
This is what Wiki says of Kathy Newman: "the portions of Buffy's soul which Kathy had earlier stolen were restored while the two were in the middle of a fight" . Isn't his what she's trying to do when she's hitting him in the alley? Doing the right thing - restoring her "soul".
Rambling again...will somebody pull it together for me please?
Spuffy freak
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That could be it as at the end of the epi she does beat him up pretty badly it was way harsh even for Buffy.
Also title 'dead things' might have some hidden meaning as Spike is dead so they didn't really see him as a person but mostly as a thing, Xander even refers to him as a 'thing'
Fool for Buffy
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Day 9: How would Buffy and Spike celebrate Christmas?
How about just a quiet romantic Christmas Eve dinner with candles, presents with the Scooby Gang in the morning, and then they could go out and fight some Christmas themed demons. Maybe a Chaos demon because they have a resemblance to reindeer and I know Spike doesn't like them.
How about just a quiet romantic Christmas Eve dinner with candles, presents with the Scooby Gang in the morning, and then they could go out and fight some Christmas themed demons. Maybe a Chaos demon because they have a resemblance to reindeer and I know Spike doesn't like them.