8.22: "Swell" (*spoilers*)

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, I just read it, and I have to say...

That really wasn't especially good at all.

We still get no explanation of why everyone is continuing to ignore the murderous nature of all non-Harmony vampires. If all the vampires have suddenly stopped killing people, we haven't been clued in to that.

We do get confirmation that Twilight is behind the "Vampy Cats" and, by extension, Harmony's TV show.

We also get confirmation that Twilight is probably the lamest, most ineffectual Big Bad we've seen yet. Which is a pretty good indication that he's not the real Big Bad. (I mean, his minions' battle cry is "Eat their f***ing ovaries!")

And who knows what Satsu was referring to on the final page about the need to become something else... is she going rogue? Undercover? Heterosexual? Is she going shopping for street clothes so she can blend in, or guns so she can join Simone?

And why did Kennedy think Satsu would be hoping for a declaration of love from Buffy during an official Slayer video conference?

This issue missed by a mile, I'm afraid. I really, really don't know where they're going with this arc.

 

[Blaze]

I haven't read it yet but by what you said it doesn't really make me want to buy it as soon as I can

I had High hopes for this one but appenrently won't be getting what i'm hopping for. I trust Joss but i'm not sure were the Comics are going. I think they have a hard time fitting what they want in a few pages a months. It sucks because I loved the first arcs so much.

Anyway, still looking foward reading Swell even tho it might not be as good as i want it to be

-Blaze-

 

[AndrewCrossett]

You might have a different opinion of it than I do. I just found a lot of it to be inexplicable.

I didn't care for it, but I'm not urging people to avoid reading it. YMMV.

The action stuff was pretty good, I guess. Satsu and Kennedy both kick butt, which is fun. It's too bad they were facing such a ridiculous opponent, though.

 

[Kean]

If Twilight is a fuax-bad who is our big-bad?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

If Twilight is a fuax-bad who is our big-bad?

If my expectation is correct... that Buffy and Angel will join together at season's end to fight the Ultimate Battle (the one alluded to in "Fray") -- then I'd guess the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart are behind it all.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, I just read it, and I have to say...

That really wasn't especially good at all.

(...)

This issue missed by a mile, I'm afraid. I really, really don't know where they're going with this arc.

Andrew, do you think we're getting these crappy issues because they're leading to some huge payoff, or do you think Buffy's gone dramatically downhill?

That's the real question I've been asking myself. If it is just going downhill, I'm pretty shocked, because when we talk about like Angel Season 4, it was sub par by Joss standards, but compared to the garbage out there, mass media in general, it was still pretty good. Predators and Prey on the other, hand appears to not only be bad by Joss standards, but just generally poor in quality in that it doesn't really make sense. So do you think that he's just throwing us off for some great reveal? I sure hope so.

 

[Kean]

Andrew, do you think we're getting these crappy issues because they're leading to some huge payoff, or do you think Buffy's gone dramatically downhill?

That's the real question I've been asking myself. If it is just going downhill, I'm pretty shocked, because when we talk about like Angel Season 4, it was sub par by Joss standards, but compared to the garbage out there, mass media in general, it was still pretty good. Predators and Prey on the other, hand appears to not only be bad by Joss standards, but just generally poor in quality in that it doesn't really make sense. So do you think that he's just throwing us off for some great reveal? I sure hope so.

I hope so too.

I think the different voices and lack of cohesion and a clear expressed idea are what is causing the lack lustre issues. At least I hope that's what has gone wrong.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

If my expectation is correct... that Buffy and Angel will join together at season's end to fight the Ultimate Battle (the one alluded to in "Fray") -- then I'd guess the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart are behind it all.

We've talked about this a lot, and we share the hope that we'll see all of the Champions unite for the battle, but I honestly haven't seen that foreshadowed at all (in terms of taking place in S8, we do know it'll happen eventually).

And I don't mean that I think it would be a big twist (like Cordy becoming evil or Ben being Glory), I really don't think it would fit.

For something as big as Buffy & Angel reuniting into one front against Wolfram & Hart, to make sense of it, there should be some lead up, some pieces that when put together make sense of it all. I just don't see that smoothly coming out of this terrible Predators & Prey arc.

Honestly, the only thing that I can think of that would make some sense of this arc is revealing that Willow is in league with Twilight for some reason and she's cast an Earth changing spell with Amy (like what Vale did with Connor). And even that will be disappointing, but I don't know of another option that wouldn't be pretty bad.
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I hope so too.

I think the different voices and lack of cohesion and a clear expressed idea are what is causing the lack lustre issues. At least I hope that's what has gone wrong.

You hit the nail on the head. I hope (but kind of doubt) that the lack of cohesion is intentional and will all result in a big reveal that plays off all of these little strange unrelated and somewhat boring stories. If they don't, well I don't know what's going on with Whedon.

 

[Clem Rocks]

It's been obvious for ages that Buffy is the big bad this season.
I don't mean she's Twilight, i mean she's now her own worst enemy

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Andrew, do you think we're getting these crappy issues because they're leading to some huge payoff, or do you think Buffy's gone dramatically downhill?

That's the real question I've been asking myself. If it is just going downhill, I'm pretty shocked, because when we talk about like Angel Season 4, it was sub par by Joss standards, but compared to the garbage out there, mass media in general, it was still pretty good. Predators and Prey on the other, hand appears to not only be bad by Joss standards, but just generally poor in quality in that it doesn't really make sense. So do you think that he's just throwing us off for some great reveal? I sure hope so.

My problem isn't so much with the story itself, as with the fact that so many things don't seem to make sense or have any explanation, from the big things (public acceptance of vampires) to the small ones (Satsu's decisions at the end of this issue.)

It is entirely possible that all this will be tied together in a way that makes sense. It's harder and more frustrating when you have to wait a month between episodes instead of a week. Such a long wait causes questions to turn into objections.

I'm not going to stop reading, but if I get to the end of this arc and these questions still aren't answered, I'm going to be very unhappy.

Anyway, things that became fairly clear to me from reading this:

1) Buffy and Satsu are going to end up on opposite sides. (See the imagery in the final panel of the issue.) Satsu may even be the "close and unexpected" betrayal alluded to in "Anywhere But Here."

2) Twilight is not the real Big Bad.

3) The Slayers are going to be factionalizing, and Buffy's leadership is going to be seriously challenged (again).
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We've talked about this a lot, and we share the hope that we'll see all of the Champions unite for the battle, but I honestly haven't seen that foreshadowed at all (in terms of taking place in S8, we do know it'll happen eventually).

I think it will happen this season mainly because of Joss's recent comments concerning his goals for season 8 (to bridge the story gap between Season 7 and "Fray").

I think Season 9 will be something very, very different.

For something as big as Buffy & Angel reuniting into one front against Wolfram & Hart, to make sense of it, there should be some lead up, some pieces that when put together make sense of it all. I just don't see that smoothly coming out of this terrible Predators & Prey arc.

The problem is, we haven't been getting many pieces that seem to be leading up to anything where Twilight is involved. He's just a big, ridiculous pro wrestler who does silly stuff like throwing churches at people, and creating these stupid Vampy Cats, and giving the Slayers a little bit of PR trouble. (Which we also really haven't seen materialize much yet... is being scolded by Larry King going to be the extent of this?)

But he somehow has access to key military, corporate and media resources around the world. Just like Wolfram & Hart.

Honestly, the only thing that I can think of that would make some sense of this arc is revealing that Willow is in league with Twilight for some reason and she's cast an Earth changing spell with Amy (like what Vale did with Connor). And even that will be disappointing, but I don't know of another option that wouldn't be pretty bad.

I think the "evil Willow" thing has already been done to death, both this season and before. I think she is instead going to be one of the characters (along with Faith) who helps Buffy get her head out of her butt before it's too late. But if it is her, I'll probably be so depressed I'll get out of Buffy fandom altogether. Really, you can only stab me in the heart so many times before it stops being fun.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think Season 9 will be something very, very different.

There's going to be a s9?

I think the "evil Willow" thing has already been done to death, both this season and before. I think she is instead going to be one of the characters (along with Faith) who helps Buffy get her head out of her butt before it's too late. But if it is her, I'll probably be so depressed I'll get out of Buffy fandom altogether. Really, you can only stab me in the heart so many times before it stops being fun.

Buffy killed Willow a couple of months ago! lol

 

[white avenger]

Is there any chance at all that the real Big Bad will turn out to be Dr Horrible and the Evil League of Evil? If not, I'm still really hoping that somehow we'll see Angelus return, maybe as a completely seperate entity from Angel.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

On other boards, people are talking about this issue like it's "Citizen Kane." So you may not want to take my word for it about whether it's any good or not.

But IMO, it's easily the weakest issue of the series so far.

 

[Kean]

I've made no secret of the fact that I wholly endorse a merging of the comics for a final definitive apocolypse. However, while we have strong indications that this apocolypse is the Big one for Buffy...how do we know that is the W&H apocolypse the lawyers have been (literally) saving Angel for?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I've made no secret of the fact that I wholly endorse a merging of the comics for a final definitive apocolypse. However, while we have strong indications that this apocolypse is the Big one for Buffy...how do we know that is the W&H apocolypse the lawyers have been (literally) saving Angel for?

We don't... but given events of such magnitude, I wonder how either one of them could *not* be involved?

I think the post-"Aftermath" Angel comics will probably make the direction they're going in clearer.

I think season 8 will end with the Big One... the Apocalypse referred to and shown in "Fray," where the demons and magic are banished from this world for centuries. We're going to be permanently losing a lot of our Buffyverse friends in this one, I'm afraid.

 

[Allycat]

Although I would love it if Buffy and Angel both ended with the big cross-over apocalypse. I think that neither After the Fall/Aftermath nor s8 are gearing up to that. I mean, they might be setting it up for the (distant) future, but there might still be a lot of little apocalypse between now and then.

As to the issue, I quite liked it. Sure, it was more than a little over the top, but I enjoyed the spotlight being on a different set of characters for a change.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Although I would love it if Buffy and Angel both ended with the big cross-over apocalypse. I think that neither After the Fall/Aftermath nor s8 are gearing up to that. I mean, they might be setting it up for the (distant) future, but there might still be a lot of little apocalypse between now and then.

feel the same way
________________

 

[Tranquillity]

Companion on-line comic for Swell:

"Vampy Cat" by Steven S. DeKnight
MySpace.com - MySpace Dark Horse Presents Free Online Comics & Comic Books on MySpace

 

[Kean]

We don't... but given events of such magnitude, I wonder how either one of them could *not* be involved?

I think the post-"Aftermath" Angel comics will probably make the direction they're going in clearer.

I think season 8 will end with the Big One... the Apocalypse referred to and shown in "Fray," where the demons and magic are banished from this world for centuries. We're going to be permanently losing a lot of our Buffyverse friends in this one, I'm afraid.

Giles is a definite isn't he? It's been awhile since I read Fray but I'm nearly positive the last slayer's watcher dies.

I wonder will Buffy still get sucked into hell in the end...I pressume not since we have a series 9 but then again Hell didn't stick for Angel nor did Heaven stick for Buffy. So what happens at the end doesn't really matter becuase it will almost certainly not stick.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Giles is a definite isn't he? It's been awhile since I read Fray but I'm nearly positive the last slayer's watcher dies.

I don't remember that. Giles isn't really her Watcher anymore, though...

But yeah... I wouldn't make any long-term plans for Giles. Or Xander. Or any of the New Slayers.

I wonder will Buffy still get sucked into hell in the end...I pressume not since we have a series 9 but then again Hell didn't stick for Angel nor did Heaven stick for Buffy. So what happens at the end doesn't really matter becuase it will almost certainly not stick.

Not clear whether he's getting sucked in or out.

I have this wild idea that at the end of season 8 they win the fight, but they all die. All of them. But it's okay, because that means they're all together again somewhere else. And season 9 is about what happens then.