8.22: "Swell" (*spoilers*)
- Thread starter AndrewCrossett
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AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
We only know she survives in the timeline Buffy saw. I'm fairly sure saving her from that fate is going to be high on Buffy's to-do list.
white avenger
white avenger
If the big final battle is still going to end the way it was told in the "Fray" series, then there can't really be that big final Alamo/300 Spartans/everybody goes down swinging ending this season and still be a Season 9, which I believe has been pretty much promised to us by Joss. Most likely, that battle will be the climax of Season 9, unless sales are so great that a Season 10, and even more, are required. Plus, when it comes right down to it, it's never actually been established that Buffy is the Slayer who leads that final battle. According to the original text from "Fray" #2, the only definite thing that we know is that the battle takes place in the early part of the 21st Century. And even that is suspect, seeing as how the information comes from a demon and later from what appear to be Watcher archives, which may not be that accurate or even authentic. Remember, by Fray's time, the Watchers have devolved into a pack of suicidal lunatics. Who's to say that they didn't edit the actual events or even fabricate the whole thing? And are they even the authentic Watchers? According to the "No Future For You" arc, Giles is, essentially, all that is left of the Watchers, and he doesn't seem that intent on er-establishing the group anytime in the near future, certainly not soon enough to have it up and running in time to record first hand the events of any armagedon taking place anytime soon.
The entire "everything gets sucked into Hell" scenario might even have been a huge mix up, combining the events of "Angel: After The Fall" with whatever battle is actually coming, especially if there is any kind of crossover between the two magazines. Such inaccuracies happen concerning real historical events, and there's no reason to think that the same thing couldn't happen in the Buffyverse.
The entire "everything gets sucked into Hell" scenario might even have been a huge mix up, combining the events of "Angel: After The Fall" with whatever battle is actually coming, especially if there is any kind of crossover between the two magazines. Such inaccuracies happen concerning real historical events, and there's no reason to think that the same thing couldn't happen in the Buffyverse.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
My notions of what Joss is going to do with season 8 come mostly from this quote, from this interview:
"I was dealing with the fact that I had created a future where none of the things she had apparently accomplished had actually happened"”I wrote them before I wrote her doing them, and that was a mistake. So trying to reconcile the two led to the tone of season eight. It is a little intense but it hopefully has a goofy side to it."
The future he created was "Fray," the "things she had apparently accomplished" was the big battle depicted therein. So Joss wanted season 8 to end with showing us that big battle and hooking up the two stories.
But the Great Victory doesn't have to be the end of the story. After the V-J Day ticker-tape parades ended everybody had to go find jobs and get re-acquainted with their families and deal with the memories of what they'd seen. The Aftermath can have just as many good stories as the war.
But really, what other Slayer would it be? After 12+ years of Buffy's story, I don't think some other new gal is going to come waltzing in and win the ultimate battle. The Slayer we see in the comic is wearing a miniskirt and has hair just like Buffy's.
He already has re-established the Watchers in a limited respect. Andrew and (I believe) Robin Wood are performing Watcher duties under his supervision. The books Mel finds don't tell about the final battle, just about the Slayers. It's Urkonn who tells her about the battle, and usually when you see explication spelled out like that, it's the truth. There was never any revealed reason for him to lie about it.
All we see in "Fray" is Buffy herself getting sucked into (or possibly out of) Hell or some similar dimension behind a portal. Not certain if anyone else goes with her.
The final battle scene shown in "Fray" actually looks very similar to the scene of the approaching demon army at the end of "Not Fade Away." This was what led me to believe that maybe Wolfram & Hart were going to be the Final Bosses Buffy (and Angel) had to fight.
"Fray" was published during Buffy season 7, a year before "Not Fade Away," so it may have been no accident that the two battles looked similar.
Otaku Mike
Phasing in an out
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 24
On that, I do recall that they tried to get SMG in the last Angel episode, but eventually couldn't. Maybe they tried to have her in to reinforce the link with that image... Which would support your theory.
Mike
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
That's a myth that Edmund Back-Ladder's been spreading around. Joss & David Fury have specifically said they definitely did not want Buffy in the last episode because it would take away from the finale revolving around Angel's team.
They only wanted Buffy in "You're Welcome" and to cameo in "Power Play." Fury & Whedon said that they did not want her in NFA or TGIQ for that matter.
Heh, but back to #22:
My objection isn't with the story itself, the Kennedy/Satsu banter was very well written, easily on-par with the show. I have two issues with it though:
1.) Where's this going? Larry King + Harmony = ridiculous. People loving beings that consume them for sustenance = ridiculous.
2.) The C-Team? Really? Out of over 144 episodes, Giles never got his own standalone and he's a core member of the group, now Satsu + Kennedy get a full issue to themselves? While it was good, I like the show because of the Core Team & Faith so it would've been nice if they did more than cameo.
A
Allycat
Guest
This 5-issue arc is about different angles. First we saw Harmony, now we have Kennedy and Satsu. Wanna know who the other angles are going to be on? The following only spoils who the angles are on, not what the plot is:
23: Buffy and Andrew - 24: Faith and Giles (Hope ur happy Buffyverse Fan 😉) - 25: Dawn (and possibly Xander)
kimberley01
Townie
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 10
Call me confused, but I thought the whole ending to 'Time of Your Life' was to show that the future isn't set in stone, and it can be changed. So that the Big Battle referred to in Fray doesn't have to happen. I don't know, but I kinda got the opinion that S8 was going to lead up the Big Battle from Fray, but then something is going to happen that it doesn't occur. The timeline, so to speak, is going to break/change.
All Magic and Demons will be threatened, ie by Twilight and whoever he's working for, but in the end prevail.
Erin kind of summed it up in the last page of 'Time of Your Life'. Please excuse the quote from Wikipedia:
Erin arrives, telling Fray that Gunther ran Harth off. Fray tells her, "I failed again." Erin says that Buffy is gone, and they are not. "What does that mean?" asks Fray, to which Erin replies: "Means it's a good day."
Fray was questioning what it meant for them/for the future, and what I got from Erin's answer, was that the future isn't set in stone. It can be changed.
But who knows, could just be me missing the point completely! 🙂
Kim
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
It's possible that ToYL changed the "Fray" timeline and her world's past (Buffy's future) might not be exactly the same as what we saw, yes. That would be a good excuse for Joss to retcon the events so things don't happen the way we think we know they will.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Yeah I know, and I appreciate the spoilers 😉. But I was just saying, we're really only getting 40-issues, I'd be fine with Satsu & Kennedy taking the spotlight if it didn't take away from the 40 in which I hope to get to see Buffy, Willow, Xander & Giles interacting, along with Faith.
This issue itself was good in terms of dialog and even plot, but taking us away from the central characters wouldn't have been my pick, not to mention how little sense the Celeb Vampires Arc makes.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
But that interview you posted Andrew has Joss making it sound like he doesn't plan on retconing Fray. He put a bit of time into talking about bridging the gap.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I liked the issue, it was enjoyable. Granted, to really like it I had to pause for a second and think "Okay okay okay....there are stuffed animal vampire toys, accept that's the plot and just get over it" and once I got over how I felt about that, and how it would've look ridiculous on television, it was nice. Funny issue. I don't have any problems with people thinking vampires are good, especially if Harmony is the only one they've seen. Harmony is like, a joke, you see her go shopping, and she's kind of this precious little idiot, so I could see how a human only exposed to harmony would not be afraid of vampires. I think that it's inevitable something crazy goes down, and everyone gets back on the side of Buffy. And Larry King... okay who here really doesn't think Larry King is a little bit of a joke himself? I think irl he's sold out a bit, and really is catering to popular culture. On the other hand, I do not believe for even a second Anderson Cooper would hop on the pro-vamp train... I would love to see what Maddow thinks of all this.
Edit: I was being vague cause I didn't know we could write spoilers, so changed some things
Edit: I was being vague cause I didn't know we could write spoilers, so changed some things
BffyAngelBoi
Townie
Buffy and Angel have always been metaphors for real life situations. Hasn't anyone yet realized that the media's demonization of the Slayer and the real heroes in our favorite universe is Joss's social commentary on the real world's new-found infatuation with good vampires? *Ahem, Twilight (which I myself did enjoy)* But this isn't commentary only on the world's newly romanticed views of vampires, but also on how we hold up celebrities and others into such high acclaim while the real heroes, the real champions "who live as if the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be" go unnoticed and uncared for.
I personally praise Joss for taking this arc in its current direction and for making me aware of the real people who need to be praised in this world.
I personally praise Joss for taking this arc in its current direction and for making me aware of the real people who need to be praised in this world.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Buffy & Angel really should have slayed her. They each had many chances. She betrayed Angel twice (turning him over to his death so to speak) and she actively tried to kill Buffy often...
Five
Magical Proficiency Level
I agree Buffyverse Fan. I think sometimes, they make up cheesy excuses for Buffy/Angel not to slay a character just because it's more interesting for the plot. I mean, sure Harmony was stupid, could never manage to kill Buffy : she wasn't strong enough and definitely not smart enough. So I understand how it's more funny than anything else to Buffy, or why Angel simply doesn't care... But come on, she is a vampire ! She did, before AS5 anyway, kill innocent people to feed ! I think it's a grave fault not to kill her.
Ok don't hate me but I also want to say that the same thing goes for Spike, too. In BS4 at least. I mean, he was evil back then, he had tried to kill them all and still tried... Yes he was incapacitated but does wanting to take advantage of that to kill a monster make me a bad person ? I'm against death penalty with a fierce passion, but I think that surely doesn't apply to vampires, not evil ones like BS4-Spike anyway ! He made it clear he would kill them any chance he'd got, and plot with Adam so he could, so it was stupid not killing him after the Adam drama. Before that, they needed Initiative-related information, ok : but after that, between BS4 and BS5, and it was just stupid. Buffy could have easily killed him. Really easily. Of course I think it would have been a shame for the character (even though it makes me ache when I watch BS7 to see how overused he was), but logically speaking... COME ON.
Ok don't hate me but I also want to say that the same thing goes for Spike, too. In BS4 at least. I mean, he was evil back then, he had tried to kill them all and still tried... Yes he was incapacitated but does wanting to take advantage of that to kill a monster make me a bad person ? I'm against death penalty with a fierce passion, but I think that surely doesn't apply to vampires, not evil ones like BS4-Spike anyway ! He made it clear he would kill them any chance he'd got, and plot with Adam so he could, so it was stupid not killing him after the Adam drama. Before that, they needed Initiative-related information, ok : but after that, between BS4 and BS5, and it was just stupid. Buffy could have easily killed him. Really easily. Of course I think it would have been a shame for the character (even though it makes me ache when I watch BS7 to see how overused he was), but logically speaking... COME ON.
DarklyDreamingDrusilla
Scooby
So am I the only one who wants a Vampy Cat. Obviously not one that is going to eat my ovaries but you know I would love a little stuffed animal like that. Hmmm... Maybe I will make one...
One topic of the issue thought I must say that it was not the best one for sure but I did like the ending in that Satsu realized that she needs to change and stop hoping that Buffy will be gay for her. I would love to see her character develop more cause I find her very interesting.
One topic of the issue thought I must say that it was not the best one for sure but I did like the ending in that Satsu realized that she needs to change and stop hoping that Buffy will be gay for her. I would love to see her character develop more cause I find her very interesting.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Sorry, no compromises. If it doesn't eat your ovaries, it's not a Vampy Cat.
I just wish they'd given us more of a clue as to what made her come to that realization. Was it the 167th time Kennedy told her "she's not gay" (because the first 166 times might have been insincere), or was it the fact that Buffy didn't pledge her undying love during an official Slayer crisis video conference? (Sorry... just being a little snarky there.)
Me too. She's not only my favorite new season 8 character, but one of my favorite Buffyverse characters. If she were a real person I'd be really, really wishing I was a woman.
DarklyDreamingDrusilla
Scooby
I love snarkiness! But I completely agree with this point and I never really thought about it like that. She did kind of just decide "Okay i guess Kennedy is right..." I am mostly just happy to see she is going to move on cause I would like to see her in a real healthy relationship. It would be interesting to find out what really drove her to make that decision though.
Five
Magical Proficiency Level
Did they really eat ovaries ? I thought that was more of an expression, a misogynistic order to kill. If they were serious... it's kinda stupid.