A "Dawn" question (seasons 3 and 5)

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Chasing Cordy

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The way I see it, there is no need for having this blob of energy we call Dawn if Glory never became a problem.

Therefore, why is it the shared dream of Buffy and Faith during the season three finale talks about Dawn in cryptic language (Little miss muffett).
Am I to understand that it was at this point that Glory became a problem?

I've been trying to figure this out for a day...
How can information be sent regarding something that has yet to be formed at all?
When we first see Dawn, she is basically two months old...yet Faith and Buffy had info about Dawn two years earlier. But she (dawn) would not exist if Glory was a good god.

More later if I have more problems/complaints regarding this. Or if I can phrase it more clearly!
 
I think I know what you're asking, and it's an excellent question, one that never occurred to me before.

Why are Buffy and Faith getting premonitory dreams of Dawn's appearance at the end of Season 3 in "Graduation Day Pt. II" and also, recall, in the dreams of Season 4 episodes "This Year's Girl" and "Restless"? Was it the case that Glory was affecting the scene back then so that they would have such precognition? Before she became the Big Bad?

And I don't know the answer. Glory was presumably existing in Ben's body during those times-she herself gives her age in Season 5 as 25. Maybe she was in the process of breaking out back then, such that the monks were already looking to the slayers for a way to protect the Key?

Somehow I'd like to find an answer that makes Dawn more organic to the Buffyverse than just being created at the will of the monks to hide and protect the Key from Glory.
 
Because the dream was exactly that. A premonition. A dream that tells of something happening in the future.

Like in Charmed. Pheobe has premontions of things that are going to happen. Not happening yet.

Its suppoesed to warn the person of danger in the future so they can prevent it (or perpare for it I guess). If its already happening, how can they prevent or prepare for it. Unfortunately Buffy didnt know what Faith meant so she couldnt do either.
 
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Then there's that Nostradamus guy.
You can always say "it's a premonition, period". You can imagine that the future is a deterministic path which can be read by those having the gift to do so.

Generally premonitions on Buffy or Charmed or whatever are not purely deterministic-prophecies are "mutable" in the words of Giles (episode "Prophecy Girl") and reading them gives someone the power to change them.

It's therefore fun to try to speculate whether some physical or mystical mechanisms are in play behind these premonitions-those mechanisms which shape the course of the future, and how the slayers as precognitives can read them.
 
I always thought it was just a TV show premonition. Like, Joss hinting about it, not actualyl something that forces in BtVS/Buffyverse/Sunnydale wanted to hint about. But that's just me, I see some things as simple in that way 😉
 
To add on to my original post...
Dawn was not simply a real girl that got off a greyhound bus at the beginning of season five.
Heck, she didn't even exist at the end of the fourth year. But Faith and Tara knew about an (at that time) unformed blob of energy. And hey, Tara even gave it a name..."Be back before dawn"

Also, after viewing season five--just one time--it confuses me that nobody informed Buffy about Glory's status as a goddess until rather late...and Buffy almost was never told about Dawn's status as energy-chick.
Those are rather important things, don't ya think?
 
If Buffy was told about Dawn, she wouldnt have treated her like a sister and Glory would have noticed. The whole point was dawn was supposed to be Buffys sister. Really. So no one would notice and treat her differently. Look what happened when everyone found out. they didnt know how to act.
 
Chasing Cordy said:
Also, after viewing season five--just one time--it confuses me that nobody informed Buffy about Glory's status as a goddess until rather late...and Buffy almost was never told about Dawn's status as energy-chick.
Those are rather important things, don't ya think?
Click to expand...
Buffy is told what Glory is-a God-in the episode "Checkpoint" (a favourite of mine, BTW) by Quentin Travers of the Watchers' Council. She gets the essential story on what Dawn really is in the episode "No Place Like Home" when she talks to the dying monk. The revelation makes Buffy determined to protect Dawn. These two events don't occur fairly early in the season but I think I know what you're driving at, without meaning to presume.😉 There just wasn't much time for everyone including the audience to get used to Dawn as part of Buffy's world in Season 5.
 
watcher1006 said:
You can always say "it's a premonition, period". You can imagine that the future is a deterministic path which can be read by those having the gift to do so.

Generally premonitions on Buffy or Charmed or whatever are not purely deterministic-prophecies are "mutable" in the words of Giles (episode "Prophecy Girl") and reading them gives someone the power to change them.

It's therefore fun to try to speculate whether some physical or mystical mechanisms are in play behind these premonitions-those mechanisms which shape the course of the future, and how the slayers as precognitives can read them.
Click to expand...

Thats a good point but in the buffyverse all of thses prophecies/premontions tend to come true, in fact i can't think of one that didn't
 
Xin Rong said:
Thats a good point but in the buffyverse all of thses prophecies/premontions tend to come true, in fact i can't think of one that didn't
Click to expand...
Come true, but rarely if ever in the absolute sense. The visions that Doyle and Cordelia have in Angel allow the team to act in advance of that which could happen. In "Prophecy Girl" Buffy does indeed die at the hands of the Master. But it is also foretold that she will be led to her fate by a child and that she will not know him. But when she meets Colin outside of Sunnydale High School she knows exactly who he is and where he's taking her. She takes his hand, choosing to go of her own free will (a favourite scene of mine, BTW).

The question of predestination and the role that free will plays in one's future is an old, old question. It comes up in Greek tragedy-think Aeschylus' Oedipus the King. More recently, if you're into Frank Herbert's Dune books, it's a central theme of those stories.
 
Oops, should have said Sophocles' Oedipus the King. Been too long since I was in school. 😉
 
watcher1006 said:
Glory was presumably existing in Ben's body during those times-she herself gives her age in Season 5 as 25. Maybe she was in the process of breaking out back then, such that the monks were already looking to the slayers for a way to protect the Key?
Click to expand...

This brings up another issue...
If Glory was in Ben's body all the time (or was Ben, then was the key really needed to be changed into anything? Couldn't they just keep Glory in Ben's body? Or at least provide a new body for her if needed--one that was stronger.

I have made it past season five and I still don't get the Glory/Dawn/Key mix. Maybe I'm overthinking like I normally do...
 
This whole conversation is just too confusing for me to get into.

"7-3-0"
does anyone know what that means? It came after the "little miss muffet" comment from Faith.
 
HellGods said:
"7-3-0"
does anyone know what that means? It came after the "little miss muffet" comment from Faith.
Click to expand...
Oh, there are lots of people who could answer this one but let me take a crack at it.

"...counting down from 7-3-0"-I think that's the wording of Faith's line. It's supposed to mean two years until Buffy will die at Glory's tower. Because there are two years (365+365 days) between the finales of Seasons 3 and 5.

It's always puzzled me though because I'm not sure it's accurate. The time span is 1999-2001, and 2000 was a leap year (366 days). If someone has a better explanation, please weigh in.
 
"Oh yeah, miles to go. Little Miss Muffett counting down from 7-3-0"

Yet another odd thing.
If Little Miss Muffett is indeed Dawn as one of the writers claims on the DVD (I think the writer was Dave Fury) then the two year thing doesn't apply--since Dawn's appearance doesn't match Faith's two-year comment.

Unless the Faith comment was directed at Dawn being the one to die and not Buffy.
:wink:
 
It's Faith talk. She doesn't use complete sentences. I think it might be better written out as

"Oh yeah...miles to go...Little Miss Muffett...counting down from 7-3-0."

The Miss Muffett fragment refers to Dawn, the 7-3-0 refers to Buffy, who has 730 days left.

In my opinion that Buffy-Faith dream scene is one of the show's sublime moments. The two have just been in mortal combat, but they still share an identity of being slayers.
 
It's Faith talk. She doesn't use complete sentences. I think it might be better written out as

"Oh Yeah...Miles to go...Little Miss Muffett...Counting down from 7-3-0."

The Miss Muffett fragment refers to Dawn, the 7-3-0 refers to Buffy.

Just my opinion, I think that that Buffy-Faith dream scene is one of the show's sublime moments. The two have just been in mortal combat, but they still share an identity of being slayers.
 
In case anyone reads this, here's another piece of problem regarding the Dawn/Glory storyline...

In all of these slayer dreams concerning Dawn's arrival, there is no mention of Glory at all.
Isn't she the one that had to be dealt with and not Dawn?

Aren't slayer dreams supposed to help out in future events? How is Faith saying "Little sis coming" or Tara saying "be back before dawn" of any help to Buffy in beating Glory?
:idunno:
 
Maybe cos Dawn is connected to Buffy (she was made from her) then they were able to be warned. But Glory was just another evil thing in no way connected to Buffy.
 
Chasing Cordy said:
In case anyone reads this, here's another piece of problem regarding the Dawn/Glory storyline...

In all of these slayer dreams concerning Dawn's arrival, there is no mention of Glory at all.
Isn't she the one that had to be dealt with and not Dawn?

Aren't slayer dreams supposed to help out in future events? How is Faith saying "Little sis coming" or Tara saying "be back before dawn" of any help to Buffy in beating Glory?
:idunno:
Click to expand...

Well its not really a problem is it.
I mean its a mild prophetic dream, however its hardly something that can be or is referenced. the dreams are more a clue to the viewer not Buffy.
It tells us that Buffy is going to be part of something in 730 days, thats 2 years. 2 years is Buffy'sdeath, not Dawns arrival.
Same with Tara's dream, its on about how the 'clock' is wrong, which is counting down to the 100th episode. Dawn is part of that, but she isnt the focus. Heck its not even Glory that kills buffy, its a sacrifice in the nameof Love.....so like i say its not a problem
 
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