A few Pangs

[Icarium]

I hate to defend "Pangs" but I believe that the intention wasn't to show that the "savages" deserved being conquered. It was to show that sadly pretty much each and every country on Earth did such atrocities at one point or another and you can't undo those things. Being politically correct won't magically give the dead native Americans back their lives and land. Delving too much into the past is a recipe for disaster - just look at the Balkans where every state has territorial claims towards its neighbours, the patriots dream of Mega-[Insert Country Name] and hate other nationalities for what they supposedly did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago. Let's face it, anyone can claim that his country or ethnic group has been screwed up by some other country or ethnic group at some point. Buffy and Willow can't really do anything for the Chumash spirits anyway and the latter aren't in the mood for negotiations. And I really don't think people should feel guilty for what their ancestors did. Acknowledging it, yes, but guilt?

whilst the Chumash are ultimately portrayed as needing civilizing and thus the colonial power vindicated.

They are? One guy goes for revenge, that's about it. Okay, he summons a few buddies to help him but we might as well claim Scandinavians needed to change radically just because Anya became a vengeance demon and Olaf took splendidly to life as a troll.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I hate to defend "Pangs" but I believe that the intention wasn't to show that the "savages" deserved being conquered. It was to show that sadly pretty much each and every country on Earth did such atrocities at one point or another and you can't undo those things. Being politically correct won't magically give the dead native Americans back their lives and land.

I don't think it was his intention either (he practically patted himself on the back in that episode commentary, but I digress...😛), but that's how it came across, especially since those Chumash spirits are pretty much the only representation of native people in that episode.

And I really don't think people should feel guilty for what their ancestors did. Acknowledging it, yes, but guilt?

But that's kinda my issue with it. No one's asking for guilt, but this episode frames colonialism as a past issue, one that only long-ago ancestors are guilty of when in fact the effects from colonialism are still going on today. For Whedon to take such a dismissive tone is a bit offensive.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I didn't like the whole historical commentary myself, but that's due to me being British and having minimal knowledge on the topic, which makes it difficult to care about it. I like it from a comedic point of view though, there are some good moments.

 

[PassionBecoming]

I enjoyed this episode, but thought it was a little silly with the arguments they had. I mean, really. He was a vengeful spirit that obviously wasn't going to reason with you. Playing nice isn't going to work!

Myancestors were in Slovenia until the early 1900's, so my family wasn't here in pilgrim times. 🙂

 

[VisionGirl]

I enjoyed this episode, but thought it was a little silly with the arguments they had. I mean, really. He was a vengeful spirit that obviously wasn't going to reason with you. Playing nice isn't going to work!

Myancestors were in Slovenia until the early 1900's, so my family wasn't here in pilgrim times. 🙂

Well, my ancestors weren't here either (my parents are Italian immigrants), but that's kind of besides the point, isn't it? Doesn't mean I don't have to deal with the aftermath of racism, slavery, and genocide in our culture. We all do.

especially since those Chumash spirits are pretty much the only representation of native people in that episode.

Well heck, it's the only representation of native people in the whole 'verse! We've talked about the lack of minority representation in both shows before, this is just another example.

And what I mean about the obvious PCishness of it is that it comes off as very afterschool-special. Joss has to be very careful about the ways he approaches these subjects, oftentimes he does it well, but sometimes it's obvious, clumsy, and lacks nuance (Pangs, Bad Eggs for example).

 

[Taake]

Willow and Buffy for their complete non-reaction to Xander's deathly diseases. Everybody in the Scooby gang for giving shelter to Spike. Spike for looking for help from them - is he suicidal or just stupid? Okay, don't answer that. 😉 Willow is even joking about Spike's attempt to kill her in the previous episode - bear in mind she has no idea if his inability to bite hasn't been just a one time thing, so this nonchalant attitude is way out of place. There is also Willow trying to defend a stupid spirit at the cost of prolonging Xander's pain.

I think this episode is entertaining, giving me a few chuckles, but I think all of the points you made are very valid and interesting and the reason why I do have certain problems with this episode. There are too many plot/character inconsistencies to overlook and they get to me.

 

[randiann]

I should just walk away.....far far away..


Lets just say for short that I agree with prophesygirl and kean. This ep, which I can enjoy if I ignore all the stereotypical bs in it, is both overly pc when it comes to willow and buffy, and their stance on the "indigenous people" (which in itself is so over the top it's laughable), and so un-pc with it's stereotypical portrayal of Native Peoples that it's highly insulting. Colonialism is an ongoing problem between the US and Native nations, not a thing of the past. Except, you know, for tribes like the Chumash that were exterminated.

 

[Kean]

zobothehobo agrees: My god could you be a bigger Bangel? haha

Is that a challenge? Cuz I am sure I could try! 😛 😉

 

[mayfever]

I should just walk away.....far far away..


Lets just say for short that I agree with prophesygirl and kean. This ep, which I can enjoy if I ignore all the stereotypical bs in it, is both overly pc when it comes to willow and buffy, and their stance on the "indigenous people" (which in itself is so over the top it's laughable), and so un-pc with it's stereotypical portrayal of Native Peoples that it's highly insulting. Colonialism is an ongoing problem between the US and Native nations, not a thing of the past. Except, you know, for tribes like the Chumash that were exterminated.

I agree about all that of course, I only meant that Buffy's and Willow's stances are portrayed as so overly PC that it could almost be seen as a parody of PC-ness (I definitely took it as one).

I have my problems with PC-ness anyway (seeing as it often only masks a problem instead of attempting a solution) and with some goodwill I think it's possible to see that POV in the ep as well.

 

[randiann]

I agree about all that of course, I only meant that Buffy's and Willow's stances are portrayed as so overly PC that it could almost be seen as a parody of PC-ness (I definitely took it as one)

I completely 100% agree. Willow and Buffy's whole portrayal of over the top pc crap turns it into a total joke. It quite literally becomes a parody. You are spot on, my friend!

Darn, too bad we agree on something. I was really looking forward to a good debate! It's be known as randi vs. may 2011. Legendary. I know what will do it! *steals merrick's boreanaz weekly rotation chart, scratches may's name off and replaces it with my own* victory is mine! Xp

And now back on topic.....