A First Good?

I

Irish Spike

Fangs for the memories
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
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Simple. Does Amends prove that there's a polar oppisite of the First Evil in existence? I ask this because it seems a wee bit too coincidental that it happens to snow for the first time in Sunnydale, and snows so heavily it blocks out the sun, on the day Angel happens to try an commit suicide.
 
Well are the Powers that be not kinda the polar opposite to the first? It's possible that they made it snow, even though they don't like to intervene?

Or it could have been Jasmine, who would have wanted Angel alive?
 
Ah but the powers don't interfere directly. And Jasmine had to stay in those rules still she got on this plane(eg she had to use the life earned when trying to save Darla to make Connor instead of just doing it herself). Cordelia got baished for fiddling with a slot machine Plus the First is a lot older then the powers, they were in this dimension before the Old Ones I think.

When I first saw that episode, first thought I had, there's a first good somewhere
 
Whenever I watch that episode, I think the same thing. It seems like too much of a coincidence that they get snow for the first time in decades on the day that Angel is going to kill himself.

Perhaps the powers, who don't like to get involved, felt like they had no choice here and intervened.
 
This is a little like, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" for me. Theologically speaking, God made all and placed Adam and Eve in the garden, right? How was evil introduced? By the serpent? No, the propensity was there all along, the serpent just acted on it. So, where did Evil come from? And on the converse......was there only Good at first?
 
The Chosen
The Chosen
nice post. makes you want to think about it
Whistler said:
Anyone ever think of God? Ya know, the One the Almighty?
Click to expand...

I try not to. It screws up my devil worshipping.

I'd have to say that it was the PtB or somebody acting on their behalf. Whilst they claim to not interfere I think that they like to bend the rules when it becomes necessary. The First was attempting to remove their champion from the game so I don't think that they would have worried about bending the rules to step in for a change.
 
For what it's worth...

On December 15, 1998 the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" official posting board, series creator Joss Whedon provided some background on an episode of the show which featured some religious themes:

[...] Was it God? Well, I'm an atheist, but it's hard to ignore the idea of a "christmas miracle" here (though the PRAY on the marquee was an unintentional coincidence). The fact is, the Christian mythos has a powerful fascination to me, and it bleeds into my storytelling. Redemption, hope, purpose, santa, these all are important to me, whether I believe in an afterlife or some universal structure or not. I certainly don't mind a strictly Christian interpretation being placed on this episode by those who believe that -- I just hope it's not limited to that.
Click to expand...

http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Joss_Whedon
 
So basically there is no definitive answer on this. It is something for the fans to play with and to insert their own meaning and interpretation.

This is what I'm going with, simplicity.

The beginning is awareness. The original powers, beings that were there before all others numbered twenty. Somewhere in the cosmos their eyes were opened, and they could see that they formed a circle. That they were walking each of them in mini circles, round and around, but never breaking free from the main circle that binded them, that kept them united. They conversed. They agreed that it was the circles that made them aware and so the circles were good. Without the circles they would not be aware. Yet one of them was unsure. He did not completely agree that it was the circles that kept them aware or that the cirlces were good at all. Some part of him thought that the circles were just circles. And he spoke of his doubt to the others, but they were dismayed, and a little fearful of this ones ideas. Further still, when this one power spoke of leaving the circle that binded them they trembled and felt great dread. Worried were they, that if the circle was broken that they would all suffer the consequences. The imagination of the powers ran wild, and thought of many disturbing, terrible things.

They looked to convince him, but the more they spoke the more convinced he became that the circles were just circles. And finally he decided that he would break free from the circle and walk, not in a circle, but in a straight line. And he did so.

He walked in a straight line, and he left the circle. This was the first evil. Forever more this was recorded as the first evil act. Leaving the circle was not good for the circle as a whole. It was not deemed beneficial to the group, and thus the notion of evil was born.

The first evil was different, and that is something that he was never allowed to forget. The imaginations of the other powers were forced onto the first evil, and over time he became what the powers feared he was.

While evil in our world is inanimate, in their world it became reality.
 
I've always been thinking that I mean there should be a First Good. I mean if there's a First Evil why isn't there a First Good it makes sense doesn't it?
 
Hmmm the idea of a First Good. I think it's more of a passive force, obviously, that the First Evil who wants to stir things up and be in your face...

I get a real feeling of the Wizard of Oz when the snow starts to fall in that episode... when Dorothy gets poisoned by the poppies and Glinda makes it snow to wake her up. It's all very pleasant - and like I said that whole passive goodness.
 
It could be God, I suppose. I always thought that the Powers were meant to be the "light" side of the equation, where the First was the dark.
 
I've always wondered that, if theres a first evil does'nt that mean there has to be a first good for the cosmic balance thingy.
 
StuckinTraffic said:
This is a little like, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" for me. Theologically speaking, God made all and placed Adam and Eve in the garden, right? How was evil introduced? By the serpent? No, the propensity was there all along, the serpent just acted on it. So, where did Evil come from? And on the converse......was there only Good at first?
Click to expand...

The way I see it evil wasn't just introduced. What happened in the garden of eden was that Adam was given a CHOICE. He choose to commit this evil act and once that choice was made the first evil was created.
 
I like to think of it this way.

"Yayay, this is happy bunny land!"
"I feel like being MEAN"
*Does something mean*
"I FEEL MEAN"
*The first evil is born*
 
Whistler said:
The way I see it evil wasn't just introduced. What happened in the garden of eden was that Adam was given a CHOICE. He choose to commit this evil act and once that choice was made the first evil was created.
Click to expand...

Yeah but I mean there was always this flaw in the Garden of Eden story did Adam really choose to commit this evil act? I mean sure God told him and Eve not to eat from the fruit, however they had no concept of good and evil right and wrong, so as a result even though they disobeyed God's rule they didn't really know they were disobeying because they didn't know right from wrong. So eating the fruit even though God told them not to was wrong and they didn't know it was wrong so in a way was it really a choice to commit an evil act?
 
So who made it snow ?
Some-one or something that didn't want Angel to die. Who was that ?. Gregor's boss ?, [the key is the link, the link must be severed, such is the will of God] or the Powers That Be. I'll go with Occam's Razor and as the PTB are mentioned more than God in the series, the PTB have got my vote.
It has been said that it couldn't be the PTB as they don't interfere, it only snowed and a by product was that Angel didn't die.
Does God control the weather, yes but it depends on which God is being referred to.
Some-one mentioned about God, the one, the almighty. That is dependant on the individuals religious belief. Willow and Tara [ supposed of the Wiccan religious belief ] talk of more than one Goddess.
Mention is made of Adam and Eve, and Adams evil act of biting the apple. When did biting into an apple become an evil act.
The question of what came first the chicken or the egg arose. Surely the road came first, so that it was there for the chicken to cross.
What came first, the evil or the good ? dunno and I'm not really bothered as they both exist. If the evil never existed there wouldn't have been any need for a vampire slayer, if the good never existed there wouldn't have been a vampire slayer. The good and the evil both co-exist, that's a good..........oh, oops !
 
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