A Question (Angel in the Riley One-Shot)

[BuffyThoughts]

In the Riley One-Shot, Riley (as a double agent) joined the military wing of the "Twilight Organization."

I'm not sure just when this was supposed to take place. It must've been after the events of The Long Way Home, I suppose, since at this time Buffy already knows there is a Twilight Organization and the US military is involved in it somehow.

My impression is that it was maybe three months before the "Battle of Tibet" and perhaps six months before the "Battle of Sunnydale" where the Seed was destroyed.

This is important to me, because I'm trying to understand Angel's possession by Twilight.

He doesn't look or sound like a man possessed, when he's talking to Whistler, even though the plan to create Twilight is already well on its way to fruition. When and how exactly does he become possessed?

 

[VisionGirl]

Technically Angel is not "possessed" by Twilight until the Last Gleaming arc. He is influenced & manipulated by the Twilight consciousness/entity/universe throughout, but the writers make it clear that he was not controlled by Twilight. His decisions were his own. The Riley one-shot gives us some understanding into why he chooses to go along with this plan.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

If he got all the way to "Last Gleaming..."

Technically Angel is not "possessed" by Twilight until the Last Gleaming arc. He is influenced & manipulated by the Twilight consciousness/entity/universe throughout, but the writers make it clear that he was not controlled by Twilight. His decisions were his own. The Riley one-shot gives us some understanding into why he chooses to go along with this plan.

If he got all the way to the Last Gleaming arc without being controlled, why did he need to be controlled then? BTW, why do you put "possessed" in quotes? Is there some ambiguity about it, or some qualification?

You says he is "influenced & manipulated by the Twilight consciousness/entity/universe throughout..." ... Hmmm ... That means that the Twilight whatever-it-was existed in a fairly robust sense of "existence" at the time of Riley One-Shot and well before, right? It was already able to plan and think and act, it was alive and intelligent. Am I wrong?

Can you give me an issue number where the control happened?

 

[VisionGirl]

If he got all the way to the Last Gleaming arc without being controlled, why did he need to be controlled then?

Very good question, I really don't know.

BTW, why do you put "possessed" in quotes? Is there some ambiguity about it, or some qualification?

No, I think it's pretty widely believed that he was possessed when he killed Giles. I just used quotation marks to differentiate the word possessed from controlled or manipulated.

You says he is "influenced & manipulated by the Twilight consciousness/entity/universe throughout..." ... Hmmm ... That means that the Twilight whatever-it-was existed in a fairly robust sense of "existence" at the time of Riley One-Shot and well before, right? It was already able to plan and think and act, it was alive and intelligent. Am I wrong?

This is not completely clear, but it did speak through various other people (the dog, the flight attendant, the tailor), so I vote yes. I don't think it was speaking through Whistler though, although if we didn't have the panels with Whistler in Angel & Faith #1 that might be less clear as well.

Can you give me an issue number where the control happened?

Do you mean the possession? Last Gleaming part 3 (#38). I do think there was some mystical influence happening in the Twilight arc when he & Buffy were boinking (the "glow") although the writers said that they were in charge of their own decisions there as well. They did liken it to a "drug" that would influence decisions, but they are still responsible for those decisions.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

My Thanks

This is not completely clear, but it did speak through various other people (the dog, the flight attendant, the tailor), so I vote yes. I don't think it was speaking through Whistler though, although if we didn't have the panels with Whistler in Angel & Faith #1 that might be less clear as well.

Do you mean the possession? Last Gleaming part 3 (#38). I do think there was some mystical influence happening in the Twilight arc when he & Buffy were boinking (the "glow") although the writers said that they were in charge of their own decisions there as well. They did liken it to a "drug" that would influence decisions, but they are still responsible for those decisions.

I appreciate your response to my thread. You seem to know S8 better than I do, and it sounds like you've thought about this.

A couple of things come to mind. If the Winged Lion (Twilion, Kitty Twilight, whatever) was an intelligent being in the Twilight Universe, were there other intelligent beings there?

OK, issue 38 ... is there an exact moment? As I remember, in issue 38, the Lion is arguing with Angel, apparently trying to persuade him, even at that late date. Why would it do that, if it could just possess Angel?

Even more curious, if the Lion can possess Angel, why can't it possess others besides him? Why not possess, say, Buffy or Willow, or both? If the Lion were in possession of all three, the outcome of the battle would be doubtless.

 

[white avenger]

OK, issue 38 ... is there an exact moment? As I remember, in issue 38, the Lion is arguing with Angel, apparently trying to persuade him, even at that late date. Why would it do that, if it could just possess Angel?

Even more curious, if the Lion can possess Angel, why can't it possess others besides him? Why not possess, say, Buffy or Willow, or both? If the Lion were in possession of all three, the outcome of the battle would be doubtless.

I don't think that Twilight can possess anyone without their initial consent or cooperation, but once that initial consent is given, it's sort of like inviting a vampire into your home for the first time. After that first invite, it's free to come and go as it pleases. Angel gave Twilight that invitation, either because he genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing or out of sheer stupidity, but once that happened, Twilight was free to use him however it wished, gaining more and more control with each use.

As to why Twilight didn't try and possess anyone else, I think that it was primarily a matter of its having chosen Angel as its vessel, and there just wasn't any real need to use anyone else. It did, however, at least in my opinion, exert some influence on Buffy during the Bangel equivalent of "Smashed" in #38. No matter how glad she was to see him, or how aroused she might have been, Buffy knew the consequences of having sex with Angel, and, especially just having learned that he was Twilight, and she would have never, in her right mind and in full possession of her free will, taken that big a risk in that situation.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

I don't think that Twilight can possess anyone without their initial consent or cooperation, but once that initial consent is given, it's sort of like inviting a vampire into your home for the first time. After that first invite, it's free to come and go as it pleases. Angel gave Twilight that invitation, either because he genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing or out of sheer stupidity, but once that happened, Twilight was free to use him however it wished, gaining more and more control with each use.

As to why Twilight didn't try and possess anyone else, I think that it was primarily a matter of its having chosen Angel as its vessel, and there just wasn't any real need to use anyone else. It did, however, at least in my opinion, exert some influence on Buffy during the Bangel equivalent of "Smashed" in #38. No matter how glad she was to see him, or how aroused she might have been, Buffy knew the consequences of having sex with Angel, and, especially just having learned that he was Twilight, and she would have never, in her right mind and in full possession of her free will, taken that big a risk in that situation.

What you say is interesting, but it sounds contrived to me.

The notion of "possession" is familiar. Have you ever seen a story where the victim is sometimes possessed, sometimes not, and sometimes able to remember, sometimes not, or the "possessor" has to persuade the victim to consent? How about the Plagiarus demon in A&F 1?

Suppose you saw somebody get talked into doing a thing. Would you believe him when he claimed, at a later date, that he was supernaturally compelled? It's much simpler to say that Angel was persuaded and converted, embraced the Twilight cause, and now regrets it and is "in denial" about it.

Now, was there a need to control somebody else, besides Angel? Twilight did have other agents, Nash and Pearl, for instance, who were useful. Buffy would definitely have been a useful slave. I don't see how Twilight could've missed seeing that. But he didn't possess her. The only explanation that makes sense to me is the simplest one: Twilight had no such ability.