A slight rant about Spike's soul

[zobothehobo]

I'm so sick and tired of reading people who already dislike Spike fanwanking his getting a soul into a nasty selfish act just for him. The show tells us by it's actions and general attitude towards Spike in season 7 this is not the case. Spike also says it several times. He gets a soul to "give Buffy what she deserves." Not to "get loved by Buffy." They are two VERY different concepts. I shall provide for you an example of the same concepts (or at least similar concepts). The woman I love is getting married. It breaks my heart to think about especially since I really don't like the guy. I haven't liked him for many many years... ever since we were just 5th graders. But he makes her happy. I'd like to be with her, I'd like to tell her how I feel. I'd like to stop their wedding. But she deserves to be happy with him. She deserves my support. And since I do love her, I will give her my support. As much as I wish it was, this isn't a "Speak Now" kind of situation. She's marrying the right person for her and I need to be supportive. So I am. I want to give her what she deserves... not be with her. Spike getting his soul had nothing to do with him. And he says that to us plain up in Touched. Remember "Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. (a tear rolls down Buffy's cheek) I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman"? "I'm not asking you for anything." "When i say I love you it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me." And he goes on to tell her all the things he loves about her. Sure this was an entire season later, but the same stuff holds true for getting his soul. I feel he makes that pretty darn clear by not approaching her at the beginning of season 7. He didn't ask for her help. He didn't seek her out. And when he told her about the soul, he made it clear it was for her. He says several times at the end of season 6 on his way to get his soul, and within the trials "Give me what I want, so I can give Buffy what she deserves." "I want to give her what she deserves" "I'm going to give her what she deserves." She deserves a man. A good man. A man with a soul. He didn't get his soul so Buffy would love him for him. He did it so Buffy could have the kind of man she could love around so she could love someone. Buffy deserved to have a man she could be happy with... a man she could love. THAT'S why he got his soul. Not so she would love HIM... so she could love.

 

[StarSlayer]

Cheer up Zobo 🙂 We know Spike's actions weren't selfish. I know it's hard when others don't see it that way, but it's their opinions.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNh6GE7mng[/ame]

 

[Taake]

Since your frustration over the topic seems to be the cause of this I was going to stay away from this thread but with a little more thought I felt it needed to be adressed mainly because through posting it you opened up the floor to discussion 🙂

The show tells us by it's actions and general attitude towards Spike in season 7 this is not the case. Spike also says it several times. He gets a soul to "give Buffy what she deserves." Not to "get loved by Buffy." They are two VERY different concepts.

See to me this is just venturing into semantics territory and I don't find them to be very different concepts at all.

What makes me say this? Well I point in this direction...

She deserves a man. A good man. A man with a soul. He didn't get his soul so Buffy would love him for him. He did it so Buffy could have the kind of man she could love around so she could love someone. Buffy deserved to have a man she could be happy with... a man she could love. THAT'S why he got his soul. Not so she would love HIM... so she could love.

So yes, in my eyes... still selfish reasons fueling his actions.

”So she could love...”
... so she could love him. Specifically. Not so that she could go off and find love with someone else, Spike was always intent upon returning and giving her 'what she desrved'. In his mind clearly that was him. With or without a soul.
This to me makes for clearly ID-driven decision making..

The selfish aspect goes on for me though because really once that soul was locked and ready and his remorse came kickin in he should have done the decent thing and given her the thing Buffy needed – and left!
So that she could meet a man, a good man, another man... and yes, a man with a soul if you will. But there are plenty of soulful human men trotting around that aren't Spike.

Realizing this he still wanted to give Buffy ”what she deserved” - in his eyes namely him.
Forgive me if I don't see the kindness or selflessness he did by returning to Sunnydale for her No I don't believe he did it for her at all, he did it for what he thought she should have.


And yes the quotes from Touched are pretty, I like them very much too. But that only shows that not until then was Spike starting to learn what love was about. But he was not in that place when he got the soul hence the getting of the soul cannot be attributed to insights he gained months later.




And on side note:

He didn't seek her out

Then why did he return to Sunnydale?
Also in ”Beneath you” he comes to give 'assistance' not after they've asked for it but he pops back into her life all out of his own accord then


That's my two cents and I'm respectfully bowing out now 😀

 

[StarSlayer]

^Some people see it as selfish, some don't. We've been discussing the whole "selfish" topic in another thread anyways. Can't we all just get along? 😉 🙂

 

[Blondie Bear]

The concept of selfishness in relationships in general is something I've thought about on and off for years now. Aren't all relationships, at their deepest, darkest core, selfish by nature? Don't we hang out with people or date people or marry people because being with them makes us feel good? Don't we do things for them because when they're happy, we're happy? It's kind of a feedback loop, I think. The strength of a relationship or someone's love for someone else shows up when they do something with absolutely no prospect of any kind of reward to themselves--including good feelings. In my experience, those actions are rare simply because, as I mentioned above, when they're happy, we're happy.

So I don't see Spike's desire to be with Buffy any more or less selfish than any other person's desire for a relationship. I do see him going to get his soul as falling on the lesser-selfish side simply because he had no way of knowing for sure that having a soul would make her love him. But he did know that it lessened his chances of hurting her again.

As for his actions after returning to Sunnydale, apostrophes only know what he was thinking and how much of what he did was controlled by the First. I don't think we can trust much of what he said or did, especially in "Beneath You" (though I believe what he said in the church was truth).

 

[The Unspoken]

Gee...another one of these. The sun must have come up today...

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation. However, even those that view Spike's actions in a negative light or perhaps even as another attempt to force Buffy to love him, have to concede that he becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy at one point. He risks his life in the demon trials, tries to better himself, etc.. Wait, why is he going through all this trouble again?

 

[Icarium]

Spike also says it several times. He gets a soul to "give Buffy what she deserves." Not to "get loved by Buffy." They are two VERY different concepts.

Oh, Spike says it, so it MUST be true, is that it? Well, then Buffy MUST be a bitch since Spike calls her that quite a few times too. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

Lol, what I'm really sick of tired is things like this. I am so fed up of fans who don't like Spike or have interpreted something differently being openly attacked and basically accused of being wrong, choosing not to 'see' some things or missing the point of the show or certain seasons. Some people don't like Spike. I really think it's time we got over that.

I'm sorry but threads like this make me feel like there is no point in posting and I avoid it quite a lot at the moment because I have to sit and assess if I can say what I want to say without having to spend the rest of the night dealing with the fallout.

Season 7 may say all of those things to you, Zobo and every single other Spike fan on this planet. But that does not mean that that is 'the case'. Not by a long shot. But these discussions are getting so personal and so many things are being said about people's opinions and the way they understand the show that I do not wish to discuss it any further. But I did feel I had to say something.

 

[soulunsung]

Cheer up Zobo 🙂 We know Spike's actions weren't selfish. I know it's hard when others don't see it that way, but it's their opinions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNh6GE7mng

Hey, how did you get the embed of the youtube fanvid to show up?! I are confused as to that. lol.

 

[zobothehobo]

Since your frustration over the topic seems to be the cause of this I was going to stay away from this thread but with a little more thought I felt it needed to be adressed mainly because through posting it you opened up the floor to discussion 🙂



See to me this is just venturing into semantics territory and I don't find them to be very different concepts at all.

What makes me say this? Well I point in this direction...



So yes, in my eyes... still selfish reasons fueling his actions.

"So she could love..."
... so she could love him. Specifically. Not so that she could go off and find love with someone else, Spike was always intent upon returning and giving her 'what she desrved'. In his mind clearly that was him. With or without a soul.
This to me makes for clearly ID-driven decision making..

The selfish aspect goes on for me though because really once that soul was locked and ready and his remorse came kickin in he should have done the decent thing and given her the thing Buffy needed "“ and left!
So that she could meet a man, a good man, another man... and yes, a man with a soul if you will. But there are plenty of soulful human men trotting around that aren't Spike.

Realizing this he still wanted to give Buffy "what she deserved" - in his eyes namely him.
Forgive me if I don't see the kindness or selflessness he did by returning to Sunnydale for her No I don't believe he did it for her at all, he did it for what he thought she should have.


And yes the quotes from Touched are pretty, I like them very much too. But that only shows that not until then was Spike starting to learn what love was about. But he was not in that place when he got the soul hence the getting of the soul cannot be attributed to insights he gained months later.




And on side note:


Then why did he return to Sunnydale?
Also in "Beneath you" he comes to give 'assistance' not after they've asked for it but he pops back into her life all out of his own accord then


That's my two cents and I'm respectfully bowing out now 😀

It's like this, I don't get presents for my family so that I can get praise and love and be thanked. I give them so that they can have something. Spike got his soul to basically give Buffy the gift of a good man.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Lol, what I'm really sick of tired is things like this. I am so fed up of fans who don't like Spike or have interpreted something differently being openly attacked and basically accused of being wrong, choosing not to 'see' some things or missing the point of the show or certain seasons. Some people don't like Spike. I really think it's time we got over that.

I'm sorry but threads like this make me feel like there is no point in posting and I avoid it quite a lot at the moment because I have to sit and assess if I can say what I want to say without having to spend the rest of the night dealing with the fallout.

Season 7 may say all of those things to you, Zobo and every single other Spike fan on this planet. But that does not mean that that is 'the case'. Not by a long shot. But these discussions are getting so personal and so many things are being said about people's opinions and the way they understand the show that I do not wish to discuss it any further. But I did feel I had to say something.

Also, adding to my rep post although I don't want to start a fight... I have been called wrong for my opinions about Spike and a lot of other characters a lot. The first post in this thread is the first time EVER I have used the term "fanwank" and probably the only time I will ever use it. It felt wrong to call someone's opinions wrong. I only said it because I was extremely frustrated. But the term "fanwank" is thrown around this board all the time by people on every side of every opinion of every storyline, character, etc. And to tell you the truth, everyone does do their fair share of fanwanking. Everyone interperts the characters and their actions differently... which leads to people seeing things differently. Everyone develops opinions about the character which leads to how they interpret the actions of that character. The most we can do to prove we're not "fanwanking" is to back up our opinions with examples from the text. But when we do that, we're "fanwanking" too. Everyone always "fanwanks" pretty much everything. So I'm sorry for my use of the term... I really hate that term. But to be fair, I've seen it A LOT more places than this and I've never used it in a post before and I will never use it again.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I have changed my stance on Spike; I have seen the error of my ways. There was a glorious light shining through my window this fine morning and I thought let me think about this in a different fashion. I think Spike was gravely misjudged by many people.
He was not the soulless, evil creature that people say.
He did not tempt Buffy down into her own personal abyss as many say.
He did not use everyone around him as many say.
He was not as shallow and self-centered as many say.
He was just misunderstood; it is a real shame that that light which shone through my window cannot shine through others windows and enlighten them as it has me, so they can see Spike as he truly was.

---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

I dont understand why I got the negative karma on that; every word I spoke was 100% the truth.

 

[Taake]

The concept of selfishness in relationships in general is something I've thought about on and off for years now. Aren't all relationships, at their deepest, darkest core, selfish by nature?

So I don't see Spike's desire to be with Buffy any more or less selfish than any other person's desire for a relationship. I do see him going to get his soul as falling on the lesser-selfish side simply because he had no way of knowing for sure that having a soul would make her love him. But he did know that it lessened his chances of hurting her again.

As for his actions after returning to Sunnydale, apostrophes only know what he was thinking and how much of what he did was controlled by the First. I don't think we can trust much of what he said or did, especially in "Beneath You" (though I believe what he said in the church was truth).

But I didn't say that it was bad or negative per say that he was being selfish in this instance, I was merely pointing out the fact that in my interpretation he was being so and why I thought that because Zo said he wasn't so I thought I'd explain my reasoning there.

I'm so sick and tired of reading people who already dislike Spike fanwanking his getting a soul into a nasty selfish act just for him. The show tells us by it's actions and general attitude towards Spike in season 7 this is not the case.

I didn't claim that any other relationship on the show or in life was any less selfish. That was not the point I set out to make. 🙂 Merely that it wasn't a selfless act. Whether or not that selfishness is something you can deal and agree with or not is up to your own interpretation. I just find it a little blue-eyed to claim that it wasn't selfish at all.


And I knew it would come up that the First was being his puppetmaster when it concerned his return to Sunnydale, but - and again this is my interpretation - I think that if we would have taken the First out of the equation Spike would have returned either way, because it was in his character to do so.

 

[soulunsung]

I dont understand why I got the negative karma on that; every word I spoke was 100% the truth.

Okay, wait...maybe I'm confused as to your sarcasm and saw that differently than it was meant to be, in which case sorry for the negative karma. I'll make up for that, a bit later when I can, probably in another thread. But, yeah...I'm confused as to what you meant and had originally thought you were just being rude for the sake of. My apologies if you weren't.

 

[Kean]

Bangel/Spuffy Ceasefire 2011

You know, I came into this thread with the intention of submitting a very different response. In fact I had it all written up, was ready to go and found that I really do not have the stomach for this crap any longer. So here is a post I made on my LJ a few months ago. Fandom should be about joy. Not this tit for tat farce.

**Disclaimer: The below rant/plea will contain equal amounts sarcasm and sincerity. Read at your own discretion.**

I've been doing this thing for awhile where I bitch and moan about the sheer injustice of the Buffyverse fandom. I really think I've gotten quite good at it. Someone (nearly always a Spuffy) slams B/A and Bangels , I get enraged, find some place where I think people will feel my pain and then I slam Spuffy and Spuffies to make myself feel better.

My OTP and I are always the valiant victims here.

That is the most important point.

We are a fandom of martyrs, and don't you forget it.

Here's the thing though: I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of being bitter and feeling hurt. I've had enough of the automatic eye roll that is brought on by the mere mention of the word Spuffy or Spike. I'm done with hating people that I have only spoken to a handful of times. Or when I'm feeling especially sorry for myself, hating people I've never spoken to at all, just because they like something I don't understand. I'm tired of being hated for loving something others don't understand. I'm at my wits end with feeling SO.****ING.OFFENDED. all the time. I'm sick to death of being so ****ing offensive. I'm weary from crawling around fandom oh so carefully just so I do not cross a Spuffy's path and risk the claws of their wrath. I'm spent from sharpening my own claws with the gleeful hope that a Spuffy will give me a reason to lash out and have myself a real good day. I'm exasperated for being called a moron because I don't like Spike. I'm haggard from calling anyone who does like him, blinded.

Most of all I am worn, down to my very bones, by the tyrannic fear of expressing my opinion.

The sheer level of hate that we throw at each other is staggering. We have entrenched ourselves in our respective camps and it is from these posts we blindly, ignorantly and cruelly attack with every vile and hurtful word in our possession. Maximum damage for all is ensured.

Whatever we may have in common is swiftly pushed aside because nothing, and I mean NOTHING, can come between us and our little push and shove for dominance.

So here is my question: can we all just get over ourselves already?

Does it have to be this way? I was never great with the math but surely me loving Bangel and you loving Spuffy does not equal us hating each other?

I think your guy treated our girl horribly and trespassed on her in ways I can't find forgiveness for. You think my guy has manipulated and hurt our girl beyond belief and you cannot forgive him that.

My guy has been running around in a Mexican wrestler's costume because voices told him to. You're guy has made a sexbot, stolen knickers and maintained the most ridiculous hair in the history of time.

We both clearly have gross emotional problems so how bout we just accept that fact and move on?

Because here is the thing: we all love these characters and their stories. We love them so much it has quite possibly made us insane.

I should be able to poke fun at Spike without risking flames. You should be able to lampoon B/A without being subjected to my put-upon defense.

Most off all, each and every one of us should be able to give our opinions on these characters without it being synonymous with our opinions of each other.

Because that is what it feels like.

Every time you hit Bangel with a savage right hook, I stagger.

Every time I strike Spuffy with a sinister lash, you burn.

I am guilty of every single one of the hates listed in this post. I have done the same things I condemn Spuffies for. But it works both ways. We are both, quite obviously, as bad as each other.

We are also too old for this shit.

It is just as easy to be kind and pleasant to each other as it is to be a hateful bitch. So how about we try this "nice" thing for awhile and see if it sticks?

Stranger things..

 

[ashsummers]

He gets a soul to "give Buffy what she deserves." Not to "get loved by Buffy."

That's your opinion and your interpretation. I respect it and you should try to respect that other people see it differently and are not "fanwanking".

I get that Spike does love Buffy and may think he is getting a soul to "give Buffy what she deserves" but it is not his place to decide what or who she deserves or needs. How can he know that he is the best thing for her? You can't know that. No one could. And as Taake quite rightly pointed out

there are plenty of soulful human men trotting around that aren't Spike

If he really was just concerned with making Buffy happy he would have realised that. For me it's understandable that he gets his soul out of selfish means because after all he was soulless at the time. So I don't think bad of him because of it. I just don't see him getting his soul as a noble thing. He did it without taking into account what Buffy wanted and that is the important thing not what he thinks she needs.

Having said that I do think his attitude changes after he does in fact get his soul. I think he realises that forcing himself on Buffy had nothing to do with giving her what she wanted but was more about satisfying his cravings and that's why he backs off. Which I respect. I think you do a huge disservice to his character if you fail to recognise his journey from 'Seeing Red' to 'Touched' and the transformation he under goes.

When he went to get his soul after 'Seeing Red' I don't think he was capable of loving Buffy in the same why he was after he got a soul.

The show tells us by it's actions and general attitude towards Spike in season 7 this is not the case.

It tells you, others see it differently. They present a story and we each take our own meaning and interpretation from it. You have yours but you can't hate on other people for having a different opinion. I know it can be upsetting when you care about a character alot but maybe you should step out of the debates when they bother you. And on that note....later peeps!

 

[zobothehobo]

Kean agrees: If everyone agrees we should start a thread about how we can have fun together, instead of hating on each other

We could call it "Banike" or "Spanuffy" or some other cool cleaver combination of "Buffy," "Spike," and "Angel." 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

Wow, hating each other? I didn't get that impression. I certainly don't recall anyone on either side of the spectrum being called something demeaning. We do attack each other's opinion, but hey, that's what they call a discussion. When Zobo said she was 'sick and tired' I imagine it was of certain opinions, not of the people adhering to them.

But I can see 'Why the <insert character name> hate/love?' threads are a little problematic. What are we discussing anymore - actual aspects of the show or the fandom's opinion about it?

 

[Kean]

Taaroko agrees: *chokes on drink* Whaaat?! But I don't even like the combo names we're already using! How do you expect me to ever keep a straight face in the "Banike" or "Spanuffy" thread? *indignant pout*

Kinda the whole point. A thread so ridiculous that we cannot take ourselves seriously. All indignation to be checked at the door 😉

 

[ashsummers]

zobothehobo agrees: Again about the term fanwanking, I'm sorry I used it... it felt wrong to call someone else's opinion wrong, but in all fairness to me this is the first and only time I've ever used it and I see it all the time and no one ever gets hate for it.

Gotcha, I loves ya still!

soulunsung agrees: Actually, she was. It's just not a well liked opinion by some who have come in here.

Ah I know. But you have to understand that starting a thread saying your "sick" and "tired" of a certain opinion can seem like your not respecting it. It's not important though, I know Zoe meant no harm. I stay outta the debates generally because there's so much animosity and so little respect that it's draining but I did feel a little offended.

Anyway in the Spirit of letting things go and all getting along. Here's this...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU[/ame]

 

[soulunsung]

Ah I know. But you have to understand that starting a thread saying your "sick" and "tired" of a certain opinion can seem like your not respecting it. It's not important though, I know Zoe meant no harm. I stay outta the debates generally because there's so much animosity and so little respect that it's draining but I did feel a little offended.

Anyway in the Spirit of letting things go and all getting along. Here's this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU

I see what you mean, but at the same time saying you're "sick and tired" of something is just a natural comment to make on anyone's behalf, whether they're talk in terms of fandom or normal life, etc. I feel like constantly trying to counter someone else's opinion with your - a "general your here" - opinion, can also be about "not exactly respecting" someone else's opinion as well. What I mean by that, is the constant driving need to always disapprove or discredit someone else's opinion, by using one's own in the place of it. Everyone does it, of course. But, that doesn't mean that at a certain point, it doesn't start to offend. And I've seen a lot of here, especially within these two threads among other's.

Anyway...I like anyone who quotes the Lion King. 😉