Abortion

[kittenpoker]

I think this is one of those "hot button" issues that it's really easy to have an opinion on, but no one can really know what they'd do until and unless they are in that place of truly having to make that choice.

 

[Taake]

I've been avoiding this thread because I'm am so strongly pro-choice and debates about it has a tendency to get very heated. (if abortion is wrong than so is coitus interruptus and masturbation IMO)

I think better sex education is the mot important thing as well as the point [MENTION=2725]Hero[/MENTION] brought up, that abortion is not a sort of birth control. It's a last resort kind of a thing and I don't think anyone can imagine how it makes you feel. It's not something you should take lightly, but you should always have the choice. Push comes to shove, if you don't want a child it's better not to have one than to have it and not care for it properly. A child is a serious thing and if you're not devoted to it if you don't care for it... then you're causing more harm than you're doing good in my opinion.

 

[Harley]

but no one can really know what they'd do until and unless they are in that place of truly having to make that choice.

This is where conviction comes in. I've been "in that place" and I still would never have even considered abortion.

 

[dexeded]

Pro-choice all the way.

For me, a heartbeat doesn't matter. What matters is if you are capable of intelligent thought. Fetuses can't dread dying. They can't think, even if they have brainwave activity on a very basic level. So it's not murder or morally reprehensible. Of course, abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, as I believe everyone in this thread has agreed on, but really, you cannot even allow abortion in cases of rape? What matters is choice. No one is going to march into a clinic and take the decision for an abortion as lightly as picking a brand of toothpaste to use. They have the reasons, and should be allowed to make their own decisions.

 

[Professor Walsh]

This is where conviction comes in. I've been "in that place" and I still would never have even considered abortion.

You've been in your place. In your shoes.

 

[david4wt]

If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one. Don't intrude yourself in other people's life.

 

[PassionBecoming]

[MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION] There are a number of videos out there (and no, they aren't "propaganda") showing what Planned Parenthood is up to. It's quite disturbing, actually. I can PM you some as well.

As for those that say that a baby in the womb has no idea what's going on, or for those that aren't really sure what abortion is all about, I encourage everyone to watch this video. It is long, but well worth a watch/listen. It is a talk from a former Planned Parenthood manager. She was the entire organization's Employee of the Year in 2008. She now speaks against the organization because some of the things she was told and had seen. I recommend it not just because it exposes a lot of the wrongness of PP, but because she talks about what really happens during an abortion and what happens to the baby.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CPjNG5pRJc"]Abby Johnson - Planned Parenthood Exposed - YouTube[/ame]

**Please note, she does describe in some detail an abortion procedure she sat in on. I'm not easily freaked out, but it made me a little queasy.**

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

Another very good video on the subject that will give you some food for thought:

180 Movie: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI"]"180" Movie - YouTube[/ame]

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

***The 180 video also has some graphic images from the Holocaust in it, so beware of that as well.***

 

[Harley]

If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one. Don't intrude yourself in other people's life.

I hate this argument. Why shouldn't I do everything in my power to save another human life? I will not just turn my eyes and not "intrude" on someone else's life if they're committing what I consider murder. I could not eat or sleep if someone had come to me and said "I'm going to have an abortion" and I just turned with the attitude of "what's for dinner?" I have the power to affect the world around me and I have to take advantage of that. Life is so important and it sickens me that people try and justify the mechanics of it, as if it's not a living, growing human being they're killing.

Most everyone can agree that we wish abortion never happened. So why shouldn't I fight with everything I have to make it never happen? I'm not the type of person that just accepts things, especially if I think they're wrong.

 

[Flannen]

Most everyone can agree that we wish abortion never happened. So why shouldn't I fight with everything I have to make it never happen? I'm not the type of person that just accepts things, especially if I think they're wrong.

Then surely you have to accept, and respect, that it's exactly the same the other way around? I think it's fundamentally wrong to bring a child into this world when you don't wan to. I don't think it's right to force a woman, or a couple, to have a child when they're not ready for it. It's been stated in this thread that having an abortion is traumatic and thus wrong, but to me the thought of someone having to carry a child that they don't want; having to experience their body changing in physical and emotional ways when they don't want it to, must be harrowing, so I don't think that's right either.

Taking away a person's choice to make decisions and bringing unwanted, unloved children into the world is, to me, wrong. So surely, you can understand why I, and many others, would fight to make sure that every single person living in this world has the choice to save themselves, and those children, from that?

I admire your passion and your conviction for standing up for what you believe but in your eyes you might be stepping in to save a child's life but it might not be saving the parents'/mother's. Their life, and living it how they want to, is just as important to me 🙂

 

[Harley]

Taking away a person's choice to make decisions and bringing unwanted, unloved children into the world is, to me, wrong. So surely, you can understand why I, and many others, would fight to make sure that every single person living in this world has the choice to save themselves, and those children, from that?

I guess I don't understand how ending their life saves them from being unwanted?

 

[Flannen]

I guess I don't understand how ending their life saves them from being unwanted?

I guess, again, that it comes down to when you believe that "life" starts, and I'm not talking about the science of it at this point. To me, you save them from it because they don't live that life where they're not wanted. I'm very cautious of the fact that I'll end up sounding very callous because I'm struggling to word what I want to say and for that reason, at this point in time, I'm not going to say much more.

For the record, I completely understand why someone would not support abortion, I really do. But like I've said before, I firmly believe there has to be that choice.

 

[david4wt]

You can think that life starts whenever you want to. I don't care and the point is not that. The point is that your opinion should not be forced upon others.

 

[Harley]

The point is that your opinion should not be forced upon others.

Does that mean that if you have the opinion that I shouldn't steal from my neighbors, that your opinion shouldn't be forced on me and I can do what I want? How do you decide where to draw the line?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It is kinda interesting that one of the arguments used against abortion is that the child didn't have a choice in being born, and the argument itself is to take away choice from the mother.

 

[david4wt]

Does that mean that if you have the opinion that I shouldn't steal from my neighbors, that your opinion shouldn't be forced on me and I can do what I want? How do you decide where to draw the line?

Stealing: "taking away goods from a person that owns them and worked for them." = involving others.
Abortion: "a woman deciding what to do with her own body and the mass of cells growing inside of her, before the embryo in question develops enough to be considerated an individual." = not involving others.

 

[OhWow]

Taking away a person's choice to make decisions and bringing unwanted, unloved children into the world is, to me, wrong.

Unwanted, I understand since obviously the couple didn't plan on having a baby if they are considering abortion. But unloved? I'm not so sure.

People talk about choice, but does the person who's life is in question get a choice?

Yea, I don't really want to go any deeper into this subject, because it hits home so I'll just express that I am pro-life.

 

[Flannen]

It is kinda interesting that one of the arguments used against abortion is that the child didn't have a choice in being born, and the argument itself is to take away choice from the mother.

Word. It's my main issue with the term "pro-life" which also links back to what I said earlier about saving the "child" but not necessarily the mother's/parents'. It's about protecting the life of the child even if the parents' life could be potentially be 'ruined' (and I don't mean that to be as harsh as it sounds) by having an unwanted pregnancy.

Unwanted, I understand since obviously the couple didn't plan on having a baby if they are considering abortion. But unloved? I'm not so sure.

Not in all cases, certainly. But in some, surely. In a perfect world, the child will ultimately become loved either by it's natural or adoptive parents, but sadly, and I really mean sadly, I couldn't say for sure it would go like that in every case.

 

[PassionBecoming]

Stealing: taking away goods from a person that owns them and worked for them.
Abortion: a woman deciding what to do with her own body and the mass of cells growing inside of her, before the embryo in question develops enough to be considerated an individual.

Ah, but even if you are going that route, as I stated in my earlier post: You aren't allowed to do whatever you want with your body. You cannot sell yourself/sex for money. You cannot sell your kidney to someone. You can't walk into a doctor's office and tell them to chop off your foot because you want them to. You can't use your body to hurt others. So, the argument of "It's her body, she can do what she wants with it" doesn't really cover it. And that "mass of cells" isn't part of her body, it's growing inside of it.

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

Word. It's my main issue with the term "pro-life" which also links back to what I said earlier about saving the "child" but not necessarily the mother's/parents'. It's about protecting the life of the child even if the parents' life could be potentially be 'ruined' (and I don't mean that to be as harsh as it sounds) by having an unwanted pregnancy.

Pro-lifers don't believe a child "ruins" anything. That's the whole difference. We don't see a child as a burden, as unwanted, as a life-destroyer. A child is someone special that you and your partner made together, whether you meant to or not.

It is all about protecting all life, because no one human life is better/worth more than another.

 

[Harley]

Abortion: "a woman deciding what to do with her own body and the mass of cells growing inside of her, before the embryo in question develops enough to be considerated an individual." = not involving others.

That's entirely your opinion. Science claims that every existing matter resides in three states - living, non-living, dead. Which is the "mass of cells?" Not dead because reanimation is impossible. Not non-living because spontaneous generation is impossible. The only conclusion is that it's living.

That means that in order for an abortion to occur, you have to end the life of a human being. How does that not involve others?

 

[david4wt]

You cannot sell yourself/sex for money.

You can in some countries. Also when this is forbidden it's because of the influence of catholic morality of only having sex only to procreate or to (unsuccessfully) try to contain the exploitation of prostitutes.

You cannot sell your kidney to someone.

This also has other reasons that the ones you are suggesting. It's to avoiding feeding an illegal market and to keep these kind of things safe.

You can't walk into a doctor's office and tell them to chop off your foot because you want them to.

This is partially because of the Hippocratic Oath made by doctors, partly for the same reason as that don't allow your kidnapper to chop your foot of. It's because it messes with someone else's body. Someone who is an fully grown individual.

You can't use your body to hurt others.

This is because you cannot hurt others.


None of these examples disprove my opinion because none of these prohibit someone to do what they want with their body. Oh, and also I don't see the connection of any of them with abortion.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

That's entirely your opinion. Science claims that every existing matter resides in three states - living, non-living, dead. Which is the "mass of cells?" Not dead because reanimation is impossible. Not non-living because spontaneous generation is impossible. The only conclusion is that it's living.

That means that in order for an abortion to occur, you have to end the life of a human being. How does that not involve others?

Of course cells are part of the living matter, I thought that was obvious. An abortion doesn't involve others because an embryo isn't an individual. It could be an individual if it properly develops, but it's not yet.