Abortion

[Flannen]

With that mind set, one would assume that you would feel it would be acceptable to snuff out an infant, because it's not capable of "rational thought", dreams, and relationships. Just wanted to point out that the age of reason is not until 7, so with this argument you are basically saying it's okay to kill them until then.


I'd like to add that babies DO have feelings, and anyone that has a child would know that.

I think you need to be careful with saying things like this. It's aspersions like this that drive a currently well balanced, civil discussion into chaos.

Personally, I think it's quite insulting to suggest that someone who agrees with abortion on the grounds it is a foetus and not a fully developed baby or child, would be willing and able to kill a small child between the birth and age of 7. They are not basically saying it is okay to do that and you know that. This is a topic that can be difficult to keep emotions out of it but it's not fair to make comments like this.

 

[EvilWillow]

I think you need to be careful with saying things like this. It's aspersions like this that drive a currently well balanced, civil discussion into chaos.

Personally, I think it's quite insulting to suggest that someone who agrees with abortion on the grounds it is a foetus and not a fully developed baby or child, would be willing and able to kill a small child between the birth and age of 7. They are not basically saying it is okay to do that and you know that. This is a topic that can be difficult to keep emotions out of it but it's not fair to make comments like this.

It's also not fair to use an adult human as an example to what defines a human and what doesn't. A 3 year is just as much human as a 30 year old. That is the point I was making.

Less developed doesn't mean less human. That's ridiculous.

 

[Flannen]

It's also not fair to use an adult human as an example to what defines a human and what doesn't. A 3 year is just as much human as a 30 year old. That is the point I was making.

Less developed doesn't mean less human. That's ridiculous.

But ultimately, that's not what you said. I can accept that you didn't find the analogy fair, but that doesn't make it okay to suggest that someone would be able to kill a child because they used it. Raki never once said in their post that they were referring to children up to the age of 7, that was you. They were referring to a life in a foetal state. I agree with your sentiment about 3 and 30 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if Raki does to but you have to remember that some people differ on when they think life starts and even if they disagree with you, you have to accept and respect that and not cast such horrendous aspersions on their character.

 

[Buffy Summers]

No one in this thread has said that a three year old is less a human than a 30 year. Let's stick to what's actually been said in this thread for the purposes of the discussion, lest it as Flannen said descend into chaos and mudslingling.

🙂

 

[EvilWillow]

But ultimately, that's not what you said. I can accept that you didn't find the analogy fair, but that doesn't make it okay to suggest that someone would be able to kill a child because they used it. Raki never once said in their post that they were referring to children up to the age of 7, that was you. They were referring to a life in a foetal state. I agree with your sentiment about 3 and 30 years old, and I wouldn't be surprised if Raki does to but you have to remember that some people differ on when they think life starts and even if they disagree with you, you have to accept and respect that and not cast such horrendous aspersions on their character.

I was pointing out the fact that rational thought isn't capable until age 7, the age of reason. So the argument that a fetus isn't capable of rational thought is invalid. I'll admit I exaggerated to illustrate my point, and I only did so because I felt that notion was extremely unprecedented and absurd.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think the you and Raki are talking about two very different things.

🙂

 

[EvilWillow]

Rational thought is rational thought. If it is something different they were referring to, then it should have been more specific. Obviously, even infants outside the womb aren't capable of rational thought....or dreams....or relationships for that matter. That is why I said I what I did.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Give me a break. Reading the post it's clear to me that Raki didn't mean "rational thought" in the same way that you are using it, saying that a child isn't cable of it until age 7. Which I'm pointing out to try and clarify the discussion.

I think you may need to take a step back from this thread and take a deep breath.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------

I'm not upset. Forgive me for taking what someone said as literal and not try to guess what they meant. And telling me to leave because I disagree is just wrong. I shouldn't be told to leave because I challenged what someone said.

Well, you're getting nasty. So either cut it out, or don't post in here anymore.

It's not about challenging what someone else said - there is a 10 page thread here where people were challenging each other just fine until yesterday. And from that response, suggesting you take a deep breath and calm yourself before posting further seems to have been pretty good advice.

 

[Amethyst]

I don't agree with abortion. It just seems so wrong to me :S It's like murder :S Plus it saddens me that me and my husband have been trying for a baby for years and then there's people out there that get pregnant and just throw it away! I know that there are different circumstances to consider but people can always put the child up for adoption, for people like us!! 🙂

 

[kittenpoker]

Hmmm, I feel like I should try and clarify what I meant about not *really* knowing until you're there... And - of course - I'm speaking only for me....In my life, I've found that I would very easily pick up and cling to these really strong opinions about stuff that I had no direct experience with....It was so easy to get filled with passion about a topic and preach about how strongly I felt - and I did..... On the abortion issue I was (and am) strongly pro-choice.... (NOT pro abortion- for me that's an important distinction)....

But when I found myself in a situation where I had to make a choice (in fact - I was told by my dad to have an abortion) - because I was young and alone and not in any way emotionally (in terms of maturity) or financially stable....It was like - it wasn't even an option.... My personal experience - the way I felt in that pivotal moment - was not something I could have anticipated....

so this is what I mean about the difference between having an opinion, and being in a situation.

(and again this is only for me)

and to leave on a lighter note - and this is not meant to offend, but I love this line from "The Birdcage" about abortion....

"If you're going to kill anybody, I say kill the mother....now I know what you're going to say, if you kill the mother the fetus will die, but it's going to be killed anyway, so I say why not let it go down with the ship!"

(meant to be humorous - obviously that is not how I feel)

I hope this post helped clarify what I meant and didn't just serve to tangle the matter more

 

[Harley]

Plants are living too. And we chop them up all the time. The key term here is sentience. Just because something is living doesn't mean it's conscious of the fact that it is in fact living. A bunch of cells may be life, but it doesn't constitute thinking life.

Babies are not self aware. Some people with mental handicaps are not self aware. Are they eligible to be put to death then?

 

[Raki]

With that mind set, one would assume that you would feel it would be acceptable to snuff out an infant, because it's not capable of "rational thought", dreams, and relationships. Just wanted to point out that the age of reason is not until 7, so with this argument you are basically saying it's okay to kill them until then.


I'd like to add that babies DO have feelings, and anyone that has a child would know that.

I wasn't marking out rational thought, dreams, etc. as lines in the sand. I don't believe people should be killing their children. Those things are just some of many qualities that an adult woman possesses that a foetus does not. I apologise if you misunderstood me.

I agree that a foetus isn't less "human" in the literal sense, but it does lack the self-aware identity and shared experience with other people in the world that we would associate with adult humans. For that reason, among others, I can't look at a human in foetal state and equate it with an adult human simply by virtue of shared biology. And I certainly can't equate its life with someone's bodily autonomy. Someone real, living in the world, whose life has been changed. Someone who might endanger themselves by going through some back alley coat-hanger abortion because other people didn't approve of the way she lived her life "“ the way half the population already can live their lives. That situation is way worse to me than ending the life of the foetus, especially one so unwanted.

Look, I'll be honest here "“ I don't know where life begins or ends in some scientific sense, and I don't think any of us do. I know I'm not utilitarian enough to accept the Peter Singer baby-killing argument, nor do I believe in the sanctity of life enough to understand the pro-life position in the slightest; however, I do know enough to say that my own scales could never tip in the direction of the foetus when it comes to the question of legalising abortion. For me, that's kind of that.

But even if I had more serious moral issues with the killing of a foetus, it's not the only reason why I'm pro-choice. Reproductive rights are a boon to society since they reduce crime and aid development. I just can't see how, on any level, the moral repercussions of abortions can outweigh the advantages of granting full reproductive rights to women, whether on the small or societal scale, or in the short or long run. More than anything, though, I think the decision of whether or not to have an abortion ought to be up to the individual women in that situation. If someone doesn't want one, then they don't have to have one.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I agree with abortion. I'm going to be frank, whatever the reason is, if a woman doesn't think she's able to take care of her child and/or doesn't want it, she has the right to do it. I've seen too many people having children and not taking care of them and believe me this never ends well. I'd rather see someone having an abortion than making her child miserable.
Anyway whether one agrees or not, it's her choice.

 

[EvilWillow]

I would like to make something clear.

As much as I disagree with abortion, I don't look down on someone that has had one. It's a very big decision to have a child.

In terms of rape, as much as I would like the woman to be strong and give the child life, that isn't always the case, and I don't think I could ever blame anyone for making the decision to abort rather than put the baby up for adoption.

In terms of a "life or death" situation for the mother, if that ever happened to someone I know, I also wouldn't blame them for whatever choice they make. I can't say I would do the same, but I can't say I wouldn't.

If I gave anyone the impression that I looked down on you, or if I offended anyone that has ever had an abortion, I give my deepest and sincerest apologies. I support what I believe, but it doesn't mean that I ever intentionally would try to make someone feel bad about themselves, or any choices they have made.

🙂

 

[xfivebyfive]

Cast No Shadow agrees: I don't want to neg rep you again, but calling an opinion ignorant, is different to calling a person ignorant. Someone also said they disliked your opinion, however I didn't see you take that to mean they disliked you?

If you're saying my opinion is ignorant then yes you're implying that I'm ignorant. Someone doesn't have to like my opinion to like me because not liking my opinion isn't a judgement saying my opinion is ignorant is. The way you phrase things makes all the difference. I was hurt by your comment because I did take it to mean that I was ignorant for my opinion.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Okay, everyone, I know this is a hot button issue but please, remember that other people may have different opinions than you do but it doesn't them stupid or any other derogatory word. Please respect each other as people.

Let's have a healthy debate without making it about the other person's intelligence level and without belittling others for their beliefs. Stick to the facts, Jack.

🙂

 

[sk]

In the end these discussions usually comes down to when you believe a life is created. Or rather when it becomes its own being perhaps.

Think it's safe to say that basically on one is okay with ending an innocent life.
So to me it's quite obvious that those who thinks abortion is an acceptable alternative don't see the early stages of an embryo/fetus as a being of its own. Otherwise it would clearly be much harder to accept it.

Is that right or wrong? Well, where to draw the line is an extremely hard question.
Personally I'll just trust the authority on this one. Think it's 18 weeks in Sweden? That at least seems reasonable to me.

I must admit that I prioritize the well being, both mentally and physically, of the mother higher than a embryo/fetus in those early stages.
So if going through with a pregnancy isn't an option for whatever reason so be it. It may suck but I wouldn't be able to force something like this upon anyone. They also have a life, and that seems just as important to me.

/SK

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

The subject of abortion has came up a lot recently. And I know it's a touchy subject, but I thought folk here are more able to have a reasoned discussion. 🙂

What is your opinion? And why?

Although I have no desire to defend my stance on abortion, I'll say that, since you asked, I support a woman's right to choose to with every grain of my being. And if that right were ever seriously threatened, I'd fight for it with my last breath.

 

[Sweet J]

Again, you seem to not understand that this is not perspective, this is biased as it's written by your point of view! Perspective is doing this (by believing that that site is a reliable source):

10,414,608 Abortions this year
416,742 Deaths caused by HIV/AIDS this year
2,036,018 Deaths caused by cancer this year
243,165 Deaths caused by malaria this year
1,239,283 Deaths caused by smoking this year
620,033 Deaths caused by alcohol this year
265,840 Suicides this year
334,647 Road traffic accident fatalities this year
14,020,053 Deaths this year

So the reader can read the facts by himself, without you already saying "IT'S MURDER IT'S MURDER". This is not murder to me. It's not killing. 'Killing'/'murder'/'death of a human being' are terms that refer to a sentient human being with an individuality.

Yes, right you are, instead of measuring my post, I instead did a big flailing wacky inflatable arm dance while screaming 'it's murder it's murder''🙄


Of Course the site is reliable, it is part run by the WHO. The source for the Abortion meter is on the site if you had looked: Sexual and reproductive health - World Health Organization (WHO)
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/en/


http://www.worldometers.info/

The ''deaths this year'' meter does not include aborted children(I think we're all in agreement that there is a time during gestation that you agree a human being exists Whatever does it for you, 20 weeks, 24 weeks etc.)

So by your own definition aborting a child at that stage is murder and a Human death.

Therefore since the ''deaths this year'' meter does not include those exterminated human beings, according to your own definition of when a human being exists, it is alarming to note that the total number of abortions ~10 million so far this year is comparable to the ''deaths this year'' meter of ~14 million, deaths that occur from every other cause other than abortion.

This was precisely the point I was making earlier.



Secondly your opinioned, and skewed, definition of a human being is a non sequitur, and easily shown to be flawed.
For example, in a world were your opinion was enforced, people who suffer severe debilitating mental illness who demonstrate that they are neither 'sentient' nor have an 'individuality', would be fair game to be exterminated.
As it follows from your opinion, that they would not be considered human according to you.
I hope this is not what you're condoning, so perhaps you should revise your opinion?

 

[dexeded]

Babies are not self aware. Some people with mental handicaps are not self aware. Are they eligible to be put to death then?

I think I should have phrased the post better. I did not mean 'self aware', exactly. I meant it more in the sense that they could be considered human. Of course, technically they are, but my concern does not lie with its development of human organs, but in its mental capacity. I do not consider an embryo, in essence a ball of cells, to be capable of the baseline of thoughts and feelings that would count as, for lack of a better word, human.