Abortion

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I would just like to point out that babies do feel, and have been known to try and escape the "doctor" during an abortion. (I put doctor in quotes because when a doctor performs an abortion he is violating everything he promised when he became a dr.)
 
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Mr Giles
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Reproductive rights are a boon to society since they reduce crime and aid development.

I was waiting for someone to mention this.

I presume you got this from The freakonomics analysis that partially linked a crime drop in the USA with abortion legalization. It originally assigns ~50% of the reason why crime fell on the legalization of abortion.

This claim has since been essentially completely refuted, even the original authors are not so sure about it anymore. Have a look at the banning of leaded gasoline as a cofounding factor left out by those that originally were overzealous to link abortion with a drop in crime.

''For the entire US population, during and after the TEL phaseout, the mean blood lead level dropped from 16 μg/dL in 1976 to only 3 μg/dL in 1991. The US Centers for Disease Control considered blood lead levels "elevated" when they were above 10 μg/dL. Lead exposure affects the intelligence quotient (IQ) such that a blood lead level of 30 μg/dL is associated with a 6.9-point reduction of IQ, with most reduction (3.9 points) occurring below 10 μg/dL.

A statistically-significant correlation has been found between the usage rate of leaded gasoline and violent crime: taking into account a 22-year time lag, the violent crime curve virtually tracks the lead exposure curve.After the ban on TEL, blood lead levels in US children dramatically decreased.''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257652/?tool=pmcentrez

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-cut-crime-rates-around-the-world-398151.html


On the progression of papers that have essentially eroded if not entirely destroyed the claimed connection between crime rates and legalized abortion. It includes the lead in children factor not to mention the damning Foote and Goetz analysis of the data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

''Lead poisoning better explains why crime rates rose in the first place, and continued to rise in the UK (who continued to use leaded gasoline after the USA phased it out) even though abortion was legalized. It also explains why New York (especially NYC) and California (which legalized abortion before Roe) saw crime rates drop earlier than the rest of the nation, since they were also more proactive in reducing lead exposure. The theory is biologically plausible, given that lead is a known neurotoxin which has long been linked to impulsivity, delinquency, violence, and reduced IQ.''


On the mystery of falling crime rates, and how the abortion hypothesis doesn't fit the data.
http://theweek.com/article/index/204750/the-mystery-of-falling-crime-rates

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

hahaha,

Why is everyones posts changing to ''mine'' when the original poster clearly writes ''your''/ ''ur''.

Darla...was this you?
😱
 
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EvilWillow
I was wondering the same. O_o
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arabella
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Mr Giles
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hahaha,

Why is everyones posts changing to ''mine'' when the original poster clearly writes ''your''/ ''ur''.

Darla...was this you?
😱

I was wondering about that too! The grammar was annoying me so much. April's Fools, I guess. Butchering the English language.
 
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EvilWillow
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Sweet J
hahaah yeah
I was waiting for someone to mention this.

I presume you got this from The freakonomics analysis that partially linked a crime drop in the USA with abortion legalization. It originally assigns ~50% of the reason why crime fell on the legalization of abortion.

This claim has since been essentially completely refuted, even the original authors are not so sure about it anymore. Have a look at the banning of leaded gasoline as a cofounding factor left out by those that originally were overzealous to link abortion with a drop in crime.

''For the entire US population, during and after the TEL phaseout, the mean blood lead level dropped from 16 μg/dL in 1976 to only 3 μg/dL in 1991. The US Centers for Disease Control considered blood lead levels "elevated" when they were above 10 μg/dL. Lead exposure affects the intelligence quotient (IQ) such that a blood lead level of 30 μg/dL is associated with a 6.9-point reduction of IQ, with most reduction (3.9 points) occurring below 10 μg/dL.

A statistically-significant correlation has been found between the usage rate of leaded gasoline and violent crime: taking into account a 22-year time lag, the violent crime curve virtually tracks the lead exposure curve.After the ban on TEL, blood lead levels in US children dramatically decreased.''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257652/?tool=pmcentrez

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-cut-crime-rates-around-the-world-398151.html


On the progression of papers that have essentially eroded if not entirely destroyed the claimed connection between crime rates and legalized abortion. It includes the lead in children factor not to mention the damning Foote and Goetz analysis of the data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

''Lead poisoning better explains why crime rates rose in the first place, and continued to rise in the UK (who continued to use leaded gasoline after the USA phased it out) even though abortion was legalized. It also explains why New York (especially NYC) and California (which legalized abortion before Roe) saw crime rates drop earlier than the rest of the nation, since they were also more proactive in reducing lead exposure. The theory is biologically plausible, given that lead is a known neurotoxin which has long been linked to impulsivity, delinquency, violence, and reduced IQ.''


On the mystery of falling crime rates, and how the abortion hypothesis doesn't fit the data.
http://theweek.com/article/index/204750/the-mystery-of-falling-crime-rates
It's not so much the Freakanomics thing for me as it is the effects of reproductive rights on development. I've seen a lot of back-and-forth about the '90s crime drop, but even if it is complete rubbish, it doesn't remove the fact that reproductive rights are generally regarded as key in development circles. Educated women with access to medical resources that empower them to control the size of their families tend to work, have fewer children later in life, and be more invested in their children's education and well-being. It's just better all around for any society in terms of our education, our economy and our standards of living.

But even if reproductive rights weren't a cornerstone of development strategies, bodily autonomy and the freedom to choose would still trump it for me every time.
 
Secondly your opinioned, and skewed, definition of a human being is a non sequitur, and easily shown to be flawed.
For example, in a world were your opinion was enforced, people who suffer severe debilitating mental illness who demonstrate that they are neither 'sentient' nor have an 'individuality', would be fair game to be exterminated.
As it follows from your opinion, that they would not be considered human according to you.
I hope this is not what you're condoning, so perhaps you should revise your opinion?

Okay, this is the last time I'm going to say this. If people cannot treat each others' opinions with respect, this thread will be closed.
 
[MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION], Re: your rep comment to me. I seem to recall that some 145000 Irish women has travelled abroad to have a pregnancy terminated since the early eighties. That's quite a few people who apparently have been anything but fine with your legislation even before it was changed.
 
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Sweet J
We have one of the lowest rates of abortion per 1000 women in the world, ~a quarter of that of the USA's. 145,000 women is a minority in the over 2,000,000+ women on this Island.
I'm pro-choice, but there is one aspect of the pro-choice movement that I strongly disagree with, and that's the insistent focus on a woman's "right to control her body." To me, that's not what the debate is about. The whole premise of the pro-life folks is that the fetus is a separate human being with a set of rights independent of the mother's body. People who oppose abortion are respecting what they see as a life form, not disrespecting women or their "reproductive rights." Pro-choice people need to understand where pro-life people are coming from before this debate will ever become remotely productive.
 
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HalloweenRain
Thank you so much for saying that, I really respect that you can make such a profound statement like that.
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EvilWillow
Completely agree.
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OhWow
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Sweet J
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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I didn't read the rest of the thread and I am just going to state my opinion:

I'm against abortion except in case of extreme measures (ex.: rape). If you get pregnant, it is (in my opinion) because you wanted it or wasn't careful enough. I agree that accidents happens - getting pregnant when you're on the pill and the guy used a condom - but what are the odds??
 
I've said before...I'm pro-choice.

If you're pro-life, then brilliant 🙂 please, feel free to be.

What really, really gets to me is when, in this thread, people feel the need to attack each other for their personal opinions.

I'm always up for a debate, but I genuinely cannot stand it when people don't let other people have free speech.
 
Nix
Nix
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Little Miss Muffet
Little Miss Muffet
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it doesn't remove the fact that reproductive rights are generally regarded as key in development circles. Educated women with access to medical resources that empower them to control the size of their families tend to work, have fewer children later in life, and be more invested in their children's education and well-being. It's just better all around for any society in terms of our education, our economy and our standards of living.

But even if reproductive rights weren't a cornerstone of development strategies, bodily autonomy and the freedom to choose would still trump it for me every time.

1. 'Reproductive rights' i.e the use of most Contraceptives are great and I doubt anyone here would refuse to give them their full endorsement, if women want them, they should have them, and together with their partner they should use at least 2 forms simultaneously to ensure they don't get pregnant.
When two forms are used together, I have yet to experience or hear of any surprising pregnancies.

but contraceptives should not be associated with Abortion as we know it, and what we are discussing here. They are worlds apart.

2. Smaller family size historically and naturally comes after the attainment of greater economic prosperity and NOT before, according to Hans Rosling a UN statistican.

As sad as it is to talk about, it is in poor couples interests in undeveloped countries to have as many children as possible. As child survival rates are low compared to us living in developed countries, and if you want children to survive to adulthood, you'll naturally have more children.

Also since most undeveloped countries don't have pension schemes, bigger families essentially fill the pension role for the parents.

Both these points are further elucidated by Hans Rosling the UN statistican who has worked in Africa for over 20 years.

To bring this to a personal relatable level, These are some of the very real pragmatic reasons why big families likely existed in both our families histories. Similarly these reasons still exist in some regions of the world and thus it is perfectly understandable that big families still exist. There is a clear need for them.

3. But it appears you are incorrect when you equate small family size tocausing development.

There are many cases of Family size being very small in a lot of undeveloped/developing countries
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A perfect example would be in say Russia and most eastern European countries, Russia & Romania for example have some of the highest rates of abortion in world, and that has been the case for some considerable time* , and both countries are still considered quite undeveloped countries, not to mention Russia has one of the highest crime rates in the world, despite women having complete ''control'' over their reproduction.

Also of note is Russia's population size is in a steep decline, which is further putting strain on their economy**

*
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1869009.stm

**
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/988723.stm

Furthermore how could a father or mother be ''more invested'' in their child's well being when they have a job? jobs that eat up most of their free time? That doesn't follow at all.
I think it essential for at least 1 parent to stay at home, with perhaps a part time job at most. Whether that be the stay at home Father or Mother it doesn't much matter, but leaving children with nannies while both parents work is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least child estrangement.


But even if reproductive rights weren't a cornerstone of development strategies, bodily autonomy and the freedom to choose would still trump it for me every time.
Body autonomy...there are two lifeforms involved, therefore autonomy doesn't come into it.

Unless I'm mistaken, there are two lifeforms, two individual human DNA codes present involved in pregnancy that of the mother and developing child, so I can't see where autonomy comes into it at all.

Freedom, liberty, choice, democracy. All concepts that appear from the outset, that no bad can come from them. but is all choice, democracy and freedom inherently good?

What about negative freedom? and what about the famous example of the very democratic voting for the philosopher Socrates to be executed? Or another infamous example, democratic Germans voting to overthrow their constitution and appoint a tyrannical dictator in the 1930s?

Perhaps these concepts aren't so pure afterall? therefore it stands that there is such a thing as too much freedom, too much democracy, too much choice.

Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow-Isiah Berlin.

Pregnancy and abortion are public, not private, matters-if it were a private matter then there would be no need to exact laws or have debates on the issue. What happens to the developing child once it is aborted? Who funds the abortion clinic? etc. - All Public issues.

If that hasn't convinced you, another example of why it is a public issue is that the developing child growing inside her is not her's to do with as she wishes. Is she allowed eat the aborted child? I don't think so.
Here's an extreme, but useful, argument that perfectly demonstrates that pregnancy is a public matter.

Imagine a mother wants to have the baby, does not want an abortion, but instead, for whatever reason, wants simply to torture the growing baby, of age, say 8 months.

To let such a woman do so would be repugnant to the very bedrock of humanity, and in such a case the woman's liberties/freedoms should rightly be restrained to prevent the child from being tortured.

Now if you agree that mothers shouldn't be allowed to torture their developing babies, in a case like this, that their pregnancy had forced the public to intervene, pregnancy thus is in the public sphere and not soley a private matter.
A private matter on the other hand would be where for example, she was just cutting herself etc. which she is perfectly entitled to do as that is a private matter.

Both stark examples but I think they serve the point.

No one should have the right to exterminate another human lifeform regardless of the stage of development, degree of sentience, how much money they have in the bank etc.
For morality to be taken seriously at all this must be the first tenet of it.

Whether you wish that away by calling the developing human as a ''mere mass of cells'' or overinflate it as a potential Beethoven in the making.

No matter which way you look at it, it remains immoral.

As ever I welcome criticism. If my views are shown to be flawed then I'll be the first to accept that and thank whomever took the time to point them out to me.

I am opposed to the politically correct point that one must respect everyones opinions. If I had the opinion that the sky is a marmalade sun beam created by elves as respect to the unicorns of the clouds of bambam.
I would hope others would point out that it is not and my opinion is nonsense, instead of tip toeing around and respecting my groundless opinion.

Now, I'm not equating pro-choice to the realm of complete nonsense, I understand where you are coming from, however I will continue to try and logically show that it is not in the realm of sound moral standing.
 
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patriot1123
Unfortunately, the biggest problem with this debate is that people who believe a fetus is a human being, and people who believe it isn't, are never going to be convinced otherwise through logic. There simply is no good way to resolve this.
I think it essential for at least 1 parent to stay at home, with perhaps a part time job at most. Whether that be the stay at home Father or Mother it doesn't much matter, but leaving children with nannies while both parents work is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least child estrangement.

Unfortunately, not all families can afford to not have both parents working. 🙁

Pregnancy and abortion are public, not private, matters-if it were a private matter then there would be no need to exact laws or have debates on the issue. What happens to the developing child once it is aborted? Who funds the abortion clinic? etc. - All Public issues.

If abortion clinics are not publicly funded, then it is not a public issue. And I would say that people who believe it is a private issue don't believe there is a "need to exact laws or have debates on the issue" - because it is to them a private issue that is no one else's business.


If that hasn't convinced you, another example of why it is a public issue is that the developing child growing inside her is not her's to do with as she wishes. Is she allowed eat the aborted child? I don't think so.
Here's an extreme, but useful, argument that perfectly demonstrates that pregnancy is a public matter.

I'm not sure how that has anything to do with pubic vs private? Though I'm not sure there is actually any law against it, it would just be gross. Can the aborted fetus be used for their stem cells would be the example I would use, though I'm still not sure how this relates to public vs private.

No matter which way you look at it, it remains immoral.

In your opinion.

I am opposed to the politically correct point that one must respect everyones opinions...however I will continue to try and logically show that it is not in the realm of sound moral standing.

If you want to continue to be a member of this board, you will respect the other people in this community. And that means, discussing your viewpoint in a civilized manner. If you cannot do this, you cannot continue to post here end of story. You don't have to agree with someone else's opinion in order to treat the person with respect. It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with acting right.
 
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sisterofmercy
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SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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xfivebyfive
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david4wt
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dexeded
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you will respect the other people in this community. And that means, discussing your viewpoint in a civilized manner.You don't have to agree with someone else's opinion in order to treat the person with respect.

I agree, so can I please be directed towards the offending section of my posts that demonstrate I disrespected someone?

Time and again, I and others, here have been debating opinions in a civilized manner, and not slandering or showing disrespect towards a single person.

If it is shown that I directed disrespect towards a fellow BB member, and not towards their opinions, then I will promptly remedy such.
 
Here's a few:

Sweet J said:
Your dystopian fantasy would be laughable if it wasn't being used to condone the continued extermination of developing human life.

Sweet J said:
By the way, your post is a textbook example of the manipulative tactic known as 'Fear Uncertainty and Doubt'.

Sweet J said:
Secondly your opinioned, and skewed, definition of a human being is a non sequitur, and easily shown to be flawed.
For example, in a world were your opinion was enforced, people who suffer severe debilitating mental illness who demonstrate that they are neither 'sentient' nor have an 'individuality', would be fair game to be exterminated.
As it follows from your opinion, that they would not be considered human according to you.
I hope this is not what you're condoning, so perhaps you should revise your opinion?

Now stay on topic in a rational and civilized manner, please, without belittling others.
 
So, so much has been said. I don't really want to get very deep into this as there has. Een detailed discussion all around. And those on "my" side of the argument have done an excellent job of explaining their viewpoint.

The only thing I want to add is the view of someone who was once ardently pro-life (protested at clinics and everything) & who is now firmly pro-choice. The one thing I want to comment on is rape. When I was pro-life and for a long time after, I could not fathom terminating for that reason. Now that I have 3 children who are old enough to notice if I became pregnant, I can indeed envision myself terminating. It's not a matter of "inconvenience" (I find that term WRT abortion patronizing). I cannot fathom explaining to my precious children that a man sexually assaulted me & that I was now carrrying his child. No, I wouldn't necessarily have to tell them, but if the assailant was of a different race & my children noticed that, I would have to provide them with an explanation. I can imagine this being incredibly devestating to my family. I used to be completely against emergency contraception, but if this happened to me I know for a fact that I would seek it out. And if circumstances stood in the way of that, I would seek an abortion. I don't think it would be an easy decision, but I am incredibly grateful that that choice is legally protected.

Also about the issue of bodily threat to the mother: Inwould agonize over that as well but the interests of my already-born children take precedence. I don't think that I could leave them motherless. Someone mentioned earlier that this situation hardly ever happens, but this exact situation happened last year in a publicized US case: a Catholic hospital was heavily publically reprimanded for allowing the termination of a pregnancy in a woman with preeclampsia, whose condition would have lead to her death if the pregnancy was not terminated.

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

[MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION]: Furthermore how could a father or mother be ''more invested'' in their child's well being when they have a job? jobs that eat up most of their free time? That doesn't follow at all.
I think it essential for at least 1 parent to stay at home, with perhaps a part time job at most. Whether that be the stay at home Father or Mother it doesn't much matter, but leaving children with nannies while both parents work is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least child estrangement.
I can't leave this one alone. I am a mother who works outside the home. I can assure you that my situation is not a "recipe for disaster" and that my children do not feel estranged from me. My job does not "eat up my free time"- I work, then we all come home & have time together. I'm not sure that you meant to say this, but it sounds to me that you're saying that parents should not work outside the home (you said "father or mother"). How would society continue to function if parents ceased to work. And furthermore if MOTHERS ceased to work, the economic condition of our country would be severely affected.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Someone mentioned earlier the subject of birth control & abortion being completely separate issues. If you really believe this then you are clearly not paying attention to American election year politics. I never thought that womens' access to birth control would be in question, but here it is. It's quite appalling.
 
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david4wt
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[MENTION=10588]SlayerOfVampyrs[/MENTION] agrees: To your third point: My blood kin did, and I know plenty of people who went through the same situation. To assume that an aunt, uncle, etc will automatically attempt to help and undermine the parenting of the abused child in question is very naive.


I have a niece due to an unplanned pregnancy. She has lived in my house since she was born (2 years now), since the mother's family didn't want anything to do with it. I am just trying to say that the parents are not the only ones in this situation. My sister, father, and mother have parented my niece just as much, if not more, than the actual parents-so I just mean to say that I think it is unfair to leave family out of the discussion.

In most cases, I believe that family will not stand by while the parents are abusing or neglecting their child. I think we can agree that, unless the family members are unaware or just as bad as the parents, they will help the baby.

I'd like to also point out that we are dealing with two families. One may not be like the other. They come from two different backgrounds.

I'm not trying to assume anything. And like I said in my first point: I'm getting kind of sick of being called naive, especially when I too am in a similar circumstance. You and I have been through similar situations, but with a different outcome and I think that this is swaying our beliefs. I know that it is for me.
 
I can't leave this one alone. I am a mother who works outside the home. I can assure you that my situation is not a "recipe for disaster" and that my children do not feel estranged from me. My job does not "eat up my free time"- I work, then we all come home & have time together. I'm not sure that you meant to say this, but it sounds to me that you're saying that parents should not work outside the home (you said "father or mother"). How would society continue to function if parents ceased to work. And furthermore if MOTHERS ceased to work, the economic condition of our country would be severely affected.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Someone mentioned earlier the subject of birth control & abortion being completely separate issues. If you really believe this then you are clearly not paying attention to American election year politics. I never thought that womens' access to birth control would be in question, but here it is. It's quite appalling.

Happily Don't live in America. Contraception prevents pregnancy, abortion terminates pregnancy.
They are seperate issues regardless of current US political rhetoric.

On the issue of Estrangement with workaholic parents, the author contends the USA is a nation of workaholics:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/My-Job-Self-Creation-Individual/dp/041592636X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333331482&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: My Job, My Self: Work and the Creation of the Modern Individual (9780415926362): Al Gini: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gWV15giaL.@@AMEPARAM@@51gWV15giaL[/ame]

Page 120 to 125 cover some of the issues with parents working. They're available on google books.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=tZ7...workaholic parents estranged children&f=false

There is even a TV trope on the subject, so clearly a lot of children relate, i.e it is a problem:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhenYouComingHomeDad
 
Furthermore how could a father or mother be ''more invested'' in their child's well being when they have a job? jobs that eat up most of their free time? That doesn't follow at all.
I think it essential for at least 1 parent to stay at home, with perhaps a part time job at most. Whether that be the stay at home Father or Mother it doesn't much matter, but leaving children with nannies while both parents work is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least child estrangement.

Are you being serious? Both of my parents have jobs but my mom started working from home when my sister was born, but she makes less money. My parents are fortunate enough to be able to do that, but not everyone can afford to do it. I know some people who could lose their house if one of their parents stopped working...or even got a part time job as opposed to a full time one. My best friend's mother is an accountant and she works such long hours in late March/April that she spends the night at work for weeks. Sure, they (my friend and her brother) had a nanny type person when they were kids, but they both have a great relationship with their mom. You can work long hours and still manage to find time to bond with your kids.

Of course it is a problem for some families, I am not denying that, but the problem is bigger than just having a job. If you value your work over your kids, clearly there is a more serious issue at hand, but to say that every household should have at least one parent who works at home/not too often is just kind of...unrealistic for some families.
 
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david4wt
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I will concur about "workaholic" parents, but that is not what you said in your post.

As already discussed, some forms of contraception have dual purposes: to prevent conception, & to prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg. How is it permissible to use contraception that blocks implantation of a fertilized egg and not permissible to abort that same embryo the next week? Why is one murder and the other not. And you do realize that the position of the Roman Catholic Church is that both are wrong. This is not a line of thinking that applies solely to the United States.
 
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