About the whole memory erasing thing ...

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Was it really just a memory erasing spell, or could it have been an alternate reality thing like what the monks did when they injected Dawn and all alternate memories of Dawn into Buffyverse reality.

If that was so, wouldn't you just have to accept the idea those alternate memories lead to a spot agreeable to all involved.

That's what we do with Dawn.

It would still be possible for a selected few to be aware of the alternate reality, or even have memories of it. Angel still has memories of his lost day with Buffy. 2 separate realities leading to the same spot in time.
 
History has not been altered--just memories. Lorne, Wes, Fred and Gunn remember Angelus, Jasmine, Cordy going evil, etc. Connor is connected to these events, yet the Fang Gang doesn't remember him at all. They remember events connect to him, but not Connor. The only event they don't remember is Darla being pregnant. They probably think she's still out there.
 
Wolferman and Hart probably after erasing those 4 memories probably put false memories into their places, some false memories leading up to the group abandoning Wesley and him going all dark, and Cordy going into a coma. This could be a reason why Lilah isnt here since it mightve raised questions to Wes and co. about a few things. Basically Joss just wrote himself into a hole when he did that and I do not think he has any plans on trying to work it out.

And the monks had to probably go into a lot of magic since they turned The Key into a human and inverted her into Buffy and friends/familys minds but im guessing that putting Dawn in there did not change that many things(just little things here and there, like Faith,Hope and Trick with the Buffy/Joyce talk with her talking about being the only child and Dawn was probably eating with Faith or was in bed or possiably with Buffys father)
 
Thanks slayerangel.

I must have overlooked that thread. I must have been really tired...

Sorry, guys.

Maybe someone could close this thread as it's basically the same as the other one. Sorry again.
 
Ok, so all is not a question of alterated reality but memory alteration.

And only Wes', Fred's, Gunn's and Lorne's memories were altered? Because as Primal Slayer pointed out: a whole lot of people know about Connor and all. How can the Senior Partners be sure that there is nobody babbling about any of this (say a client from those days), will catch one of the team's attention and they go looking into it and find out about everything?

And the second question I have is: what do they believe has actually happened?
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
It was a memory erasing spell. The Fang Gang's memories have been erased. That's all.
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I did a quick scan of the Home script hoping to find where it said that. There doesn't seem to be much support for the memory-wipe theory in Home. Nothing that says it's a memory wipe, and nothing else, anyway.

Perhaps the support for your theory appears later in S5 when Eve and Angel are talking, or something like that. Do you have a reference?
 
I cannot help but wonder what kind of consequences that Angel will suffer for wiping not only Connor's memories, but the Fang Gang's memories of him, without their permission? He still has not confessed to Buffy of her lack of memories from "I Will Always Remember You".
 
Yeah that spell, and the Dawn spell have significance here I think. Here's why:

Wolfram & Hart don't suggest the Connor spell. Angel demands it. In order to do that he would have to have an idea of what to ask for. He would need a model. Something he knows works from personal experience. Angel has at least 2 such models. A simple memory-wipe isn't one of them.

The Buffy IWALY spell is more than a simple memory wipe. A new reality is placed over top a duplicate period of time.

Probably, Angel could also draw on the Dawn model. There was communication between LA and Sunnydale at the time. Willow told Angel about Buffy's death. It's not unreasonable to suspect Angel would at some point ask "What happened?"

The Dawn model does not deal with a simple memory wipe. Memories are altered.

We know at least one person involved in the Connor experience has had his memories altered. That would be Connor.

The alteration of Connor's memories implies a more massive memory-switch. In order for the scheme to work Connor's new found family and friends, his teachers and schoolmate's, basically everyone he would have come into contact with would also have to share the belief in the new reality.

Another thing about the Dawn model is it appears to be more than simple memory alteration. It seems to be an alternate reality.

Is there evidence an alternate reality has been injected into the Angelverse. I think there may be.

In Home, Angel appears to kill Connor. Why would he do that? Perhaps because 2 Connors can't exist at the same time in the same reality.
 
We know at least one person involved in the Connor experience has had his memories altered. That would be Connor.


From "Home":

"GUNN: I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.

WESLEY: As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.

FRED: I can't believe it. Are"”are you saying we should take the deal?

ANGEL: I already took it.

FRED: Angel, what"”what?

WESLEY: You took the deal?

ANGEL: Executive decision.

WESLEY: I didn't think you'd"”

LILAH: Know a silver platter when he's handed one? I'm impressed with the lot of you. Team Angel, all growed up.

ANGEL: (to Lilah) Is it taken care of?

LILAH: Cordelia's safe and sound, probably getting a manicure and a blow dry as we speak.

FRED: You found Cordy? And she's"”

LILAH: Still in a coma. But hey, it doesn't mean she can't look her best. (to Angel) She'll receive the finest care, medical and metaphysical. If there is a way to get her back, we'll find it.

ANGEL: Good. Just one more piece of business. I got to see him.

LILAH: I'm sorry, Angel, but that wasn't part of the deal.

ANGEL: Value of compromise. Remember, Lilah? I need to see him.

LILAH: You're the boss. (hands Angel the file and amulet) There'll be a limo waiting outside. It'll take you to see Connor.

ANGEL: (softly) Thank you.

(walks out the door)

FRED: Who's Connor?"


From Fred's last line, I gather that the Fang Gang's memories of Connor have also been wiped.


And from "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco", we have this scene between Angel and Wes:

"WESLEY I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about you.
It's lost meaning for you. Spike says you no longer believe in the
Shanshu prophecy.

ANGEL (Sighs, looks at Wes)Of course not. The
prophecies are nonsense. You know that. Oh, come on, Wes, after everything we've seen the past couple of years? "The father will kill the son."

WESLEY What are you talking about?"
 
Yes Lady, those quotes tell us memory of Connor has left the Fang Gang.

They don't tell us the "Connor as Angel's son" memories have not been replaced with alternate memories.

In fact, we know Connor at least, does have alternate memories.

Alternate memories explain away all the conflicts of reason mentioned earlier in this thread.

These alternate memories could have been placed in the Angelverse either through a Dawn-style Alternate reality spell, or a Buffy(IWARY) rewinding of time spell.

I've said this 3 times now. Perhaps it's time to address it.
 
I can't see it being a rewinding of time, because then wouldn't Connor be gone altogether? As nerd4hire said, Connor obviously has alternate memories, so if time was not rewound for him, it could not be rewound for anyone else either,could it? So the other characters either have blank space in their memories, or more likely, they all have some sort of alternate memories, even if they are just slightly altered to leave Connor out.

And here's another question, many people seem to believe only Wesley, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne's memories were erased, and that other people such as Willow would remember Connor. If this were so why bother erasing the Fang Gang's memories at all, instead why not only alter Connor's? IMO, its obvious that such people as Willow or Cordy will not remeber Connor either, i truely doubt Wolfram and Hart would erase just the Fang Gangs, if they are going into that kind of power, wouldn't they erase everyones memories who knew Connor , execpt a select few (several W&H employee and Angel)? So IMO, anyone who came into contact would have their memories of Connor erased. Why bother otherwise?
 
Well SMALL SPOILER: cordy does remember

People like Willow dont visit often so she wouldnt pose anything to Connor in his normal life where as Wes,Fred,Gunn and Lorne live in LA and they know Connor and Connor knows them, they are also part of his mystical life. They are major players in his life whereas Willow is not and Cordy was in a coma at the time so they probably did not even think of altering her mind.
 
I've been wondering about this alot, but I reached the conclusion that there's not really a plot hole or anything, because we have no idea what they actually believe happened, Lilah is still dead, so is Holtz, so is Darla, they must think Darla died for another reason, Wes decapitated Lilah for another reason and thye must not even know about Holtz.

They probably just changed enough so Connor was erased and everything else somewhat seemed coherent, probably they would raise questions if they thought about it too carefully but how often do you think about plot holes in your memory?

It's like writing a script, and then deciding to delete a character, the story is still the same, but you changed alot of scenes.

For example. Angelus may have killed Lilah anyway, because Connor isn't really needed for Jasmine to appear. Cordelia may not have needed to gave birth to Jasmine.
 
Originally posted by nerd4hire
Yes Lady, those quotes tell us memory of Connor has left the Fang Gang.

They don't tell us the Connor as Angel's son memories have not been replaced with alternate memories.
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I never claimed that the memories of Connor have been replaced with alternate memories. I have no idea what the Fang Gang do remember. All I do know is that Wes, Lorne, Gunn and Fred have no memories of Connor.
 
Originally posted by LadyLavinia
I never claimed that the memories of Connor have been replaced with alternate memories.
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(Exasperated exhale)... What the heck. I'll keep trying

The fact that Fred doesn't know who Connor is, and Wesley doesn't remember the "Father will kill his son prophecy", does not show what they do remember. It only shows what they don't remember.

I'm aware you don't like the alternate memory theory. You've said so repeatedly. I heard you. You're theory is the memories were wiped, and that's all that happened.

It is me that is proposing the possibility of alternate memories.

Here's my support for that possibility.

1. Connor does have alternate memories.

2. The people around him (friend, family, etc) would also have to have similar memories. If they didn't Connor would not be able to believe he belongs where he is.

3. There is precedent for the idea of alternate memories in the Buffy/Angelverse. We have seen them with the Dawn as Key storyline, and the alternate memories as a result of rewriting time in I Will Remember You.

4. We have also seen the simple erasing of memories in Tabula Rasa and the similar Angel episode from S4. In those cases it is left to the characters to figure out what happened to their memory. No-one in Angel seems concerned about the facts of the last 2 years as they remember them. They seem comfortable with their memories. The characters are not behaving in the manner we have seen others who have simply had their memories erased behave.

5. Angel appeared to kill Connor in Home. He would not have to do that if all they were going to do was erase Connor and the Fang Gang's memories. He would only have to kill the Connor in that reality, if another Connor was going to be created, and there could not be 2 Connor's in the same reality.

6. A simple memory wipe creates a lot of conflicts of logic. We've seen them on this thread. If the memories are replaced with alternate memories, everything makes sense.
 
I think alternate memories really are the only possibility. I can't possibly see that its a simple memory erase, rewinding of time or anything else. Nerd4hire has given some very good points (repeatedly) to show it must be alternate memories.
 
The fact that Fred doesn't know who Connor is, and Wesley doesn't remember the "Father will kill his son prophecy", does not show what they do remember. It only shows what they don't remember.

Hel-lo?? I know that.


I'm aware you don't like the alternate memory theory. You've said so repeatedly. I heard you. You're theory is the memories were wiped, and that's all that happened.

Pardon me, but what in the hell are you talking about?? My theory? I never had such a theory! All I stated was that the Fang Gang had no memories of Connor. I don't know anything about an alternate theory and I have stated that I have no idea of any possible alternate memories. You seem to have this habit of putting words into my mouth. Please stop! I find it annoying.
 
Really?... Annoyed? I'm sorry to hear that. Pehaps I can help.

I think I can explain how I came to the conclusion you were proposing the fang gang's memory was caused by a memory erase, and nothing else.

I'd have to say I got the idea when I proposed the possibiliy of alternate realities/memories to explain the problem, and you replied:

It was a memory erasing spell. The Fang Gang's memories have been erased. That's all.
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I don't know. Perhaps it's just me, but there's something about the statement:

It was a memory erasing spell. The Fang Gang's memories have been erased. That's all.
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that suggests the writer was saying "It was a memory erasing spell, and that's all"

I'm not mistaken am I? It was you who said

It was a memory erasing spell. The Fang Gang's memories have been erased. That's all.
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wasn't it?

I'd hate to be accused of putting words in your mouth.

I was confused when I heard that statement about it being a memory erasing spell and that's all. You sounded so sure. I thought, maybe you knew something I didn't.

As you'll recall I asked you for a reference supporting the arguement.

I did a quick scan of the Home script hoping to find where it said that. There doesn't seem to be much support for the memory-wipe theory in Home. Nothing that says it's a memory wipe, and nothing else, anyway.

Perhaps the support for your theory appears later in S5 when Eve and Angel are talking, or something like that. Do you have a reference?
Click to expand...

A couple posts later you posted a reference from Home where Fred says "Who's Connor?" and one from another episode where Wesley doesn't remember the "Father shall kill his son" prophecy.

Again I say

The fact that Fred doesn't know who Connor is, and Wesley doesn't remember the "Father will kill his son prophecy", does not show what they do remember. It only shows what they don't remember
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I must admit I'm not annoyed by having to point out such simplistic details over and over again, but I am confused. What's the problem?

Personally I don't think there is one, because you now seem prepared to accept the possibility there could be more to the Connor situation than

It was a memory erasing spell. The Fang Gang's memories have been erased. That's all.
Click to expand...
 
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