After everything Spike has done to Buffy before Spuffy was born

[Joshua]

After all the terror Spike has done to Buffy before Spuffy was born, do you think Spike deserved Buffy more than Angel & Riley?

 

[frenchy]

I think you can't "deserve" the love of someone. You can't control who you love.

But if I had to answer... Yes I think he is the one who deserved Buffy the most after everything he went through for her.
He loved her before having a soul... I mean that's a very strong feeling. Angelus can't loved her like that.
And Riley... Even if I liked him with Buffy, I think he never really fight for her...

 

[Cast No Shadow]

She's not a prize or a commodity. She's a person (well, a character), not someone to "deserve".

 

[dexeded]

Apart from the squabble about the use of the word 'deserved', I'd say that Angel did a lot more damage than Spike to the world in general as well as Buffy. Coz, you know, Angelus was the worst (as in evil, not bad at being bad, lol) vamp ever. Angel also hurt her a lot as a teen, even if he was doing it for her own good. As for Spike, he fought against his own nature in loving Buffy, and managed to do good even as an unsouled vampire, even if it was not for selfless reasons. The good he did wasn't for 'acquiring' Buffy or scoring points with her--it was to protect her, like what he did for Dawn from Glory. It wasn't for himself, it wasn't for the greater good (he wasn't capable of that without a soul), it was for Buffy. He even got a soul for her, to be the man she deserved. Riley, out of the three, didn't commit any heinous crimes, and in that way is a more believable love interest. But BtVS is a fantasy/supernatural show, so the multitude of crimes Angel and Spike committed off-screen aren't really played up as a ginormous issue.

 

[Ripper666]

She's not a prize or a commodity. She's a person (well, a character), not someone to "deserve".

I agree with the price part. But I disagree that you can't deserve somebody. I think you can't force somebody to love you but you always say if somebody treats his partner very bad: He/She deserve someone better..?!don't you? And I think Spike did enough to "deserve" Buffy. At least he fought for a soul! Angel never fought for his soul! He got it. And I still think Spike accepted very fast that Buffy is not reachable for him, anyway he fought and fought...and nearly died for her! He was worthy for her, or you can say he deserved her. I would not begrudge him

 

[Cast No Shadow]

I agree with the price part. But I disagree that you can't deserve somebody. I think you can't force somebody to love you but you always say if somebody treats his partner very bad: He/She deserve someone better..?!don't you? And I think Spike did enough to "deserve" Buffy. At least he fought for a soul! Angel never fought for his soul! He got it. And I still think Spike accepted very fast that Buffy is not reachable for him, anyway he fought and fought...and nearly died for her! He was worthy for her, or you can say he deserved her. I would not begrudge him

You make a really good point here, I definitely understand what you mean and your opinion is definitely valid.

For me, I find the phrasing of it difficult, like "did Spike deserve Buffy", that's different from "did Spike deserve better". Deserving Buffy, in my opinion objectifies her, and deserving her more than Riley and Angel did makes her appear like a prize.

 

[Ripper666]

For me, I find the phrasing of it difficult, like "did Spike deserve Buffy",

Haha I know what you mean, I had to discuss this in my mind very long too! I see your points but I think that deserve is probably a word we use very often, I use it in relationterms very often too, so I had to justify my word-choice for myself. Of course we can discuss it and surely everyone has to make his own stand. I have to admit that it will surely make a different if your a Spuffy fan or not! ( You may have noticed that I am a big Spuffy fan 😀)

 

[white avenger]

Actually, no, I don't think so, and I've said it on numerous times before. Spike deserves much more than anything that Buffy could ever be for him or give to him. She never really appreciated him before he got his soul, never defended him from her friends, and rarely if ever gave him a smile or a "thank you" for the help and support that he tried his best to give her. He suffered torture from Glory, could very well have died, and all that he got was a peck on the cheek and an "I won't forget." But, somehow, she "forgot" to defend him whenever Xander or Giles made it plain that they distrusted him and never saw him as much more than a monster with a muzzle, a muzzle that could disappear at any moment. He had to accomplish the absolutely unthinkable before Buffy would ever even acknowledge something that had been plainly obvious for over a year. Spike, even before he got a soul, was struggling against his very nature and every instinct to become a better man, a man who Buffy actually could love and depend on.

The whole degrading sexual relationship during Season 6 was nothing more than a woman indulging in the most violent, degrading acts of sex that she could imagine with a man who almost certainly had no concept of what a normal, healthy relationship was supposed to be. Think about it. At the time when William was alive, sex prior to marriage, if it was ever indulged in at all, was with prostitutes, and even if he had indulged in such activities, romance was never covered in the fee. "Slam, bam, thank you, ma'am," and make way for the next guy in line was the rule. All that William and Spike ever knew about sex, he learned from an insane woman, a sadist, and a former prostitute. Not the greatest teachers in the art of love. What Spike did with Buffy was what he knew how to do and more than likely what she initiated and encouraged. "Tell me that you love me so that I can kick you in the head and run away, virtue flying." (No, I'm not defending what happened in "Seeing Red," simply offering an explanation of most likely how and why it happened)

So, does Spike really deserve Buffy? No. He deserves so very much more. But, for the moment, he seems to be fixated on her and can't see anything beyond being with her, so I want him to have her for as long as he feels that way, but I also want him to retain the option of moving on when someone better, someone who really respects and can truly love him without reservation, regardless of whether anyone else might or might not approve, comes along.

 

[dexeded]

Actually, no, I don't think so, and I've said it on numerous times before. Spike deserves much more than anything that Buffy could ever be for him or give to him. She never really appreciated him before he got his soul, never defended him from her friends, and rarely if ever gave him a smile or a "thank you" for the help and support that he tried his best to give her. He suffered torture from Glory, could very well have died, and all that he got was a peck on the cheek and an "I won't forget." But, somehow, she "forgot" to defend him whenever Xander or Giles made it plain that they distrusted him and never saw him as much more than a monster with a muzzle, a muzzle that could disappear at any moment. He had to accomplish the absolutely unthinkable before Buffy would ever even acknowledge something that had been plainly obvious for over a year. Spike, even before he got a soul, was struggling against his very nature and every instinct to become a better man, a man who Buffy actually could love and depend on.

The whole degrading sexual relationship during Season 6 was nothing more than a woman indulging in the most violent, degrading acts of sex that she could imagine with a man who almost certainly had no concept of what a normal, healthy relationship was supposed to be. Think about it. At the time when William was alive, sex prior to marriage, if it was ever indulged in at all, was with prostitutes, and even if he had indulged in such activities, romance was never covered in the fee. "Slam, bam, thank you, ma'am," and make way for the next guy in line was the rule. All that William and Spike ever knew about sex, he learned from an insane woman, a sadist, and a former prostitute. Not the greatest teachers in the art of love. What Spike did with Buffy was what he knew how to do and more than likely what she initiated and encouraged. "Tell me that you love me so that I can kick you in the head and run away, virtue flying." (No, I'm not defending what happened in "Seeing Red," simply offering an explanation of most likely how and why it happened)

So, does Spike really deserve Buffy? No. He deserves so very much more. But, for the moment, he seems to be fixated on her and can't see anything beyond being with her, so I want him to have her for as long as he feels that way, but I also want him to retain the option of moving on when someone better, someone who really respects and can truly love him without reservation, regardless of whether anyone else might or might not approve, comes along.

While all this may be partially true, you can't say put all the blame on Buffy. For one thing, Spike had that whole William the Bloody history (the vamp kind, not the poetry kind) and hadn't really done anything for Buffy to forgive him. Yet. She also had all that Council rubbish about vamps not being able to love and being a demon in a human sack stuffed into her head, not to mention those first-hand memories of Spike as the actual Big Bad, trying to kill Angel to restore Dru etc. Of course, this is all pre-Intervention. But even after Spike had professed to be in love with her, he proceeded to chain her up and the stuff with the Buffybot, which doesn't exactly help his point. Even more than hate, it made Buffy disgusted with him. Now, for Intervention itself... I guess you could argue on how you think she should've thanked him instead of a simple kiss and a few words, but I was fine with that (and I doubt I could rebut whatever thanks you suggest too). I actually thought she was pretty supportive of Spike after that. Buffy couldn't love Spike without a soul. He was incapable of actually feeling remorse for his crimes (outside of those that hurt Buffy or Dawn). He was immoral. His love for Buffy made him better, but his lack of a soul made it so he literally couldn't be a good man, not with the lack of guilt and a moral compass other than What Would Buffy Do.

 

[Kana]

Really thought provoking post. On that note, here are some of my thoughts.

Actually, no, I don't think so, and I've said it on numerous times before. Spike deserves much more than anything that Buffy could ever be for him or give to him.

One of things I think we have to be careful of, is not placing it on a scoreboard. I'm not saying that's what you're doing exactly, but I suppose we need to be clear.

As you know, my problem has always been, "How do we judge soulless vampire" and Spike doesn't escape my scrutiny. He was still metaphysically, the guy who tried to kill her prior to getting a soul. If we took the soul element out of it, and he was a serial killer with a ridiculous body count, who then turned round and said, to her, I love you and sought out initially to prove it by kidnapping her and threatening to kill her?

The problem is, that if we ignore the problem of judging soulless vampires morally and place it on a scoreboard then we could argue that by the time Spike is worthy of Buffy, she'll be long dead, based upon the things he did in the past.

She never really appreciated him before he got his soul, never defended him from her friends, and rarely if ever gave him a smile or a "thank you" for the help and support that he tried his best to give her.

Certainly prior to Season 6 Buffy suffer from the same issue: how do I judge Spike? Can he really love without a soul? How does this affect how I regard other soulless vampires? This is a moral situation she's never found herself in, so I can't blame her for being wary or confused. Hell even Spike himself was confused about his identity, moral and otherwise.

He suffered torture from Glory, could very well have died, and all that he got was a peck on the cheek and an "I won't forget." But, somehow, she "forgot" to defend him whenever Xander or Giles made it plain that they distrusted him and never saw him as much more than a monster with a muzzle, a muzzle that could disappear at any moment.

The problem isn't exclusive to Buffy. I find many of us fail the test of moral consistency. She tends to follow her intuition such matters or more accurately, her heart. She was touched by what Spike did but at the same time, she wonders if he is what she would consider 'good'.

He doesn't help matters by his own behaviour being ambiguous. He walks the thin line between monster and man even without a soul. Should we be so hard on those who cannot decide whether to trust him or better yet allow themselves to love him.

He had to accomplish the absolutely unthinkable before Buffy would ever even acknowledge something that had been plainly obvious for over a year. Spike, even before he got a soul, was struggling against his very nature and every instinct to become a better man, a man who Buffy actually could love and depend on.

Which brings us full circle. I'm saying let us remove the shackles of a list of deeds or misdeeds and guide to love. Such strictures, in my opinion harm both Buffy and Spike's credibility.

The whole degrading sexual relationship during Season 6 was nothing more than a woman indulging in the most violent, degrading acts of sex that she could imagine with a man who almost certainly had no concept of what a normal, healthy relationship was supposed to be. Think about it. At the time when William was alive, sex prior to marriage, if it was ever indulged in at all, was with prostitutes, and even if he had indulged in such activities, romance was never covered in the fee. "Slam, bam, thank you, ma'am," and make way for the next guy in line was the rule. All that William and Spike ever knew about sex, he learned from an insane woman, a sadist, and a former prostitute. Not the greatest teachers in the art of love. What Spike did with Buffy was what he knew how to do and more than likely what she initiated and encouraged. "Tell me that you love me so that I can kick you in the head and run away, virtue flying." (No, I'm not defending what happened in "Seeing Red," simply offering an explanation of most likely how and why it happened)

To me that's evident that neither one of them were ready to be in a relationship that was healthy for them. It's always my view that you can't seperate the love from the lover. If love was tied to sex and violence as far as Spike was concerned at this time, then that's a part of who and what he is. He needed redefine himself and his love. Buffy at least had the self-respect and also enough respect for Spike to admit that she was using him and that point she couldn't love him.

So, does Spike really deserve Buffy? No. He deserves so very much more.

As I said, scoreboard=bad for Spike. Buffy would have to take plenty more innocent lives for Spike to be worthy of her, but I suppose it all matters upon one's perspective.

As I said on the Bangel vs Spuffy thread, I find it problematic when someone has to go through the ends of the earth to get someone to love them. In real life that rarely works and in more cases than not, actually breeds contempt. For me the most healthy thing is for people to change for themselves. To fight their demons, because they see the horror in it themselves, freeing their beau or belle from an unfair debt hanging over their romance. They can then enter the relationship as equals, appreciating each other for who they are not the list of deeds they've done. Then as they enter the relationship they can do things for each other .

At the end of the day, if she loves Spike and he loves her and they can make the relationship work that's the end of the story 🙂.

But, for the moment, he seems to be fixated on her and can't see anything beyond being with her, so I want him to have her for as long as he feels that way, but I also want him to retain the option of moving on when someone better, someone who really respects and can truly love him without reservation, regardless of whether anyone else might or might not approve, comes along.

I think she did in the end and I demonstrated before, when he didn't have a soul, both of their moral identities were something they were struggling with them. For that reason I don't judge either one of them and if they can make each other happy, then good luck to them and if not
then I'd love to see them both move on. 😀

 

[WWGD]

Why would the fact that Spike terrorized Buffy make him more deserving of her love? Anyway, I'd have to say that Angel most deserved her love. He even sacrificed their relationship and his curse for the greater cause.