Agape Love

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LadyLavinia

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Many fans talk about how it is important for any of the characters to do good for the world at large or for all of humanity rather than for an individual. That to be considered good, a character has to be selfless.

My question is - why? Why do so many people value agape love? Why is it so important to society at large that we, as individuals, love the world or humanity at large? Why is it so important that we connect with humanity as much as possible? And why is more important to focus upon the world at large than with one's personal needs?
 
??? Too long sentences for poor blonde me.

Seriously, I have no idea what the answer to your question is. And I don't think that this is the message we get from Buffy and Angel, nor I think is it what the world wants.
 
I'm not sure that people have the scope to care for "humanity" in its entirety. I would guess that most people care for friends and family, and when they do something "heroic" those are the people they have in mind when doing what they do. Buffy, for example, probably wasn't saving the world from evil for an amorphous "everyone" - she most likely had Joyce, Dawn, Willow, Xander, Giles, and others that mattered to her in mind (when she wasn't concentrating on actually fighting). I work with a guy who was involved in a large multi-car pileup on a major freeway. He's a regular guy, and I'd say he was a bit fixated on his own personal pleasure...he had a bit of a substance abuse problem. When this horrific event happened, his car was smashed, but he and his passenger got out ok. More and more cars piled into the wreckage (50+ total) and many caught on fire. My co-worker and his companion pulled 2 people from burning cars, and tried to save one other...she didn't make it out. He braved the flames, and was devastated that he couldn't get her out...jaw-droppingly courageous, considering what I thought his character to be. I asked him much later why he did it...he said he heard one person crying in the wreck, and he "felt it in [his] guts, and down [his] back". He said "one person's cry of fear" was enough to inspire him to amazing acts of heroism - for people he didn't even know! I think that is the point I'm trying to make - heroes do it for one person or one group of people, not for "humanity".
 
Not sure what you mean by "agape love" but, as killerdwarf says, heroes are all around us from our grandparents in times of war to our parents in just bringing us up and ordinary people doing extraordinary things to help others. It's a sh*tty old world but "normal" people never cease to amaze me with their courage and selflessness - it almost makes up for the evil that is out there in terms of hatred and war and intolerance.
 
Because people have been taught (or viciously conditioned to believe) that thinking of yourself and what may be good for you is selfish, so in all the hypocrisy our species can spit, he who sacrifices himself for others and thinks of helping the whole world instead of himself or people only close to him is a martyr, a hero, a whatever, while those who think of themselves are selfish and evil. You know, religion-made morals surviving the demise of the religions themselves. Sadly, that's how the world is, it removes self-preservation and puts this kind of thinking instead of it. Here endeth the incoherent rant.
 
If you only cared about yourself, you would do anything for only yourself. This would lead to so many problems. We would have no leaders and representatives because no one would care for anyone else. Murder and crime rates would skyrocket because no one cares about anyone else but themselves. For humans to be anything more than visciuos barbarians they have to care for others. So while many say it's because it is frowned upon, i have to say it is more than that. I don't know if this is what you mean, but think this is what you meant by your question.
 
Originally posted by Lorne The Host
Because people have been taught (or viciously conditioned to believe) that thinking of yourself and what may be good for you is selfish, so in all the hypocrisy our species can spit, he who sacrifices himself for others and thinks of helping the whole world instead of himself or people only close to him is a martyr, a hero, a whatever, while those who think of themselves are selfish and evil. You know, religion-made morals surviving the demise of the religions themselves. Sadly, that's how the world is, it removes self-preservation and puts this kind of thinking instead of it. Here endeth the incoherent rant.
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Hmmm, I like your answer!😎
 
Hey Lorne, next time your car breaks down and someone stops to ask you if you need a hand, make sure you expound your theory to him...I'm sure he would be distressed to find out he's the victim of generations of programming instead of just a regular guy helping out a guy in a bit of a bind. But for your sake, I hope he resists the urge to drive away...here endeth the sarcasm.

Mr. Pointy: Right on!
 
You are all taking what I said to the extreme, there's a difference between choosing to help someone else than being forced to help because it is what's right, there's a difference between aiding others than sacrificing yourself for them.

Truth is, if you don't look out for yourself, chances are no one will, maybe you will be lucky and you'll have many people to help you then again maybe not, it's better to be prepared.

Originally posted by BillieHunter
If you only cared about yourself, you would do anything for only yourself. This would lead to so many problems. We would have no leaders and representatives because no one would care for anyone else. Murder and crime rates would skyrocket because no one cares about anyone else but themselves. For humans to be anything more than visciuos barbarians they have to care for others. So while many say it's because it is frowned upon, i have to say it is more than that. I don't know if this is what you mean, but think this is what you meant by your question.
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This is rather wrong, taking care of yourself those not mean kill and acquire what you need. I won't really answer this the way I usually would because it would be off topic, but you should really think through your answers. It's easy to assume it would all be evil because we've been taught that way, we've mostly been taught wrong.

Or maybe, I should just stop reading Nietzsche.
 
I'd hazard a guess that "heroes" who help people do it of their own free will...even Buffy could have walked away. That's the point...no one forces these people to do what they do...that's what makes their deeds so extraordinary. My co-worker wasn't forced to pull people out of burning cars. To the contrary, I wouldn't have blamed him for not going anywhere near a burning car after he'd been smacked around. He heard the cries, and responded on instinct...he said that for him, at that moment, there was no hesitation, no thoughts about wrong or right. He responded as I hope ALL people would...instinctively helping a fellow being in mortal danger. Would he have been evil for not helping? No, since he was in danger too, and self-preservation is always a priority. The strange thing is, he was hailed as a hero, but very uncharacteristically for him, he shied away from the notoriety. I asked him why, and he said he felt like a failure...because he couldn't get the third girl out...a hero, indeed!

Lorne: I just read my last post again...didn't mean to be quite that harsh...and if you're reading Nietzsche the picture becomes clearer...
 
Lady l,

Here is what I think,

If one does something, such as save a child from the wreckage of a burning vehicle, or help an elderly woman accross the street, they are doing it out of obligation. The motivation may be, they Are trying to score points for the afterlife or what have you. Yes it can be taught, that if you don't do these things you go to hell.

But Agape, is doing things out of love, not because you have to, but because you want to. Perhaps Lorne has a point, It is putting others before oneself. I for one think, that adding religion into that mix, makes this debate outdated. Every person on this earth has being selfish covered. Agape' cannot be taught to, or beat into someone. We can all be taught, that premarital sex is a gross immoral sin, that is wrong. But I'll be damned to find one person out of ten who, that maybe not now but at somepoint in life, has not violated that philosiphy. It can be taught, that taking, stealing things from others, be it people or places is wrong, but it still doesnt stop people, from yes, thinking of themselves and doing it.

Basic Human Nature, is to put oneself above others, It may be taught to, or beaten into us, but open your eyes, look around, everywhere everyone thinks of themselves, and for what i see noone is damned for it. The point of it is, people do things for others, because they want to, or even on some basic level even love them. You cannot MAKE yourself do that. You HAVE to want to. Humanity is not one of our cravings. Why is it pushed probabally because so many people over this earth need it, and redemption is very hard to find.

Love is a tendency found in the heart of everyone, but it takes the strongest of us to, risk our own lives, in the hopes of saving others. Personally I admire everyone who shows agape, because I myself, know that I dont have the stones for it!!!
 
Thank you blake, i think you feel the way i do about this.Ok, maybe i need to learn to avoid these threads because everyone just gets mad angry and people are just saying each other is wrong. But i would like to say IMO i believe that some people are truely good and want to help people. I believe that teaching to help others is good. Its not worng to teach this, some peopel believe this is good. I hope that if something ever happens to anyone here that someone would help them, even if tehy don't know them, just because it's good.
Fans talk about the impotance of this, because to many people it is important. It's something they believe is good. Somepeople feel that helping humanity in a way helps them be a better person. These people are great, amazing people. I have great admiration for anyone with this quality.
 
Originally posted by killerdwarf
I'd hazard a guess that "heroes" who help people do it of their own free will...even Buffy could have walked away. That's the point...no one forces these people to do what they do...that's what makes their deeds so extraordinary.
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Are you sure about that? I do recall that when Buffy first became a Slayer, she did not want to do assume the duties . . . until Merrick overwhelmed her with arguments about "destiny", "duty" and being "the Chosen One". Giles did the same when she arrived in Sunnydale. And Buffy has made it clear that she never really liked being a Slayer . . . even as late as Season 7's "Touched".

So one has to ask him or herself . . . why did she even bother? I sometimes had the feeling that she assumed Slayer duties out of a sense of guilt and fear of vampires and other demons. It's one thing to stumble across someone being threatened by a vampire or demon and helping that person because you have the ability to do it. It's another to go patrolling every night for vampires and curtail most of your social night to continue Slayer training.

If Buffy had genuinely enjoyed being a Slayer . . . or didn't mind being one, I could understand her choice to be one. But she never liked being one and her attitude has led me to believe that she only did it out of guilt and fear. And that does not seem very admirable to me.


And I also believe that many people have no problem with the idea of thinking more of others than yourself, because it makes them feel good about themselves. Even altruism can be tainted by self-interest.
 
I think it was admirable that she did a job she didn't particularly like, just because it had to be done. I've had some of those...

She did, however have a choice...yes, she was the Chosen one, but she took off to LA...she could have gone off to the Big Easy, or anywhere, but she came back to Sunnyd...good thing too, or the show might have been over! She didn't come back to be the slayer...she came back because she missed her mom and friends...there may have been some guilt, but guilt and fear are good motivators whether we like it or not. She had nothing to fear from demons and vamps...she was the slayer, and if she decided to quit, she'd still be wicked strong and fast. She would have been more afraid of what those critters would do to her loved ones. Again, we see that the "saving the world" mentality is, IMO, a byproduct of caring about those close to you. And of course altruism is involved with feeling good about yourself and self-interest! When I do something to help someone, I feel good...even if the other person doesn't know who did it! Doing something for someone is its own reward, and any recognition is nice, but not necessary (for me). I'm lucky that I don't need the validation of others to feel self worth.
 
Lady Lavinia, very good question. One which I don't have the answer to! 😛 I myself moonlight as a nihilist, so... yeah!
 
I think it was admirable that she did a job she didn't particularly like, just because it had to be done. I've had some of those...


I didn't find it admirable. I found her actions questionable. I would have been more impressed if Buffy did her job, because she enjoyed it. Because she acted from what her HEART told her, not what her mind or society's rules on morality told her to do.
 
So, you're saying that we shouldn't do jobs we don't like just because we don't enjoy them? If everyone did things that way, only the neat freaks would have clean houses, 'cause damn, I don't like to clean...my heart says I should be out smelling the flowers! A police officer may feel sorry for a junkie who's fallen so far as to commit assault and robbery, but should he then just let him/her go? Not everyone has the luxury of choosing a job they enjoy, sometimes the job, or circumstances, chooses them (like Buffy). Doing a job that you like is easy...doing a job you don't like and doing it to the best of your abilities...that's hard. Allowing the id to dictate our actions is a recipe for anarchy. I don't think any of us want to live in that world.
 
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