AI "better" than the Scoobies?

[Buffy Summers]

Just watching Ground State, and it got me thinking.

The Angel gang finds out that Cordy is a Higher Being, and abandon their plans to rescue her, because they believe she's in a better place.

When Buffy dies in the Gift, the Scoobies set about bringing her back from the dead.

Does that make the AI gang "better" (for lack of a better word) people than the Scoobies? Should the Scoobies have found out exactly where Buffy was before they brought her back to life? Did they just not care?

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Well, there was an important difference between Cordy and Buffy, in my opinion. Buffy was really dead and the Scoobies just jumped to natural conclusions, dead=bad. Cordy, on the other hand, was just missing. She could be anywhere, that's why they go looking for her. That leads to them definitely knowing where Cordy is, that it's not a bad place and that it's for the greater good. I'm sure, had the Scoobies figured out where Buffy was before they did the spell, I'm sure they would've also not done it anymore upon hearing where Buffy really was.

And a sort of semi-important point in my opinion, not everyone of the Scoobies were involved in the decision. So, if we really talk about the entire team, AI vs. Scoobies, I don't think we can base that on the Buffy death incidence.

 

[Flannen]

Well I was going to say, that the Scoobies just assumed that Buffy was in a hell dimension, but then I read your whole post and agree, that they could have tried to find out where she was. But is it me, or do the Scoobies never do that?! lol

In season 3, they never find out where Angel was or anything, but in Angel, finding out the name and nature of the hell dimension is very important to them.

I can't decide if it makes them 'better', but I think it shows that the Angel team might be less selfish than the Scoobies. 🙂

 

[Bluebird]

Just watching Ground State, and it got me thinking.

The Angel gang finds out that Cordy is a Higher Being, and abandon their plans to rescue her, because they believe she's in a better place.

When Buffy dies in the Gift, the Scoobies set about bringing her back from the dead.

Does that make the AI gang "better" (for lack of a better word) people than the Scoobies? Should the Scoobies have found out exactly where Buffy was before they brought her back to life? Did they just not care?

That's a good point, I've never thought of that before. I suppose they could justify it because she was the Slayer, and with Faith in jail there wouldn't be another one called. I still think they should have found out where she was though. There must have been some way they could have found that out, since Angel was able to find out where Cordelia was without much trouble.

But I do think it does make AI 'better' people in that respect. They found out that Cordelia was, for all they knew, in a better place and let her be. Whereas the Scoobies just went ahead with the spell, and their reasoning of doing it because they thought she was in hell I thought was just an excuse for them to be selfish, because they missed her.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I can't decide if it makes them 'better', but I think it shows that the Angel team might be less selfish than the Scoobies. 🙂

Actually, I think it just shows that Angel has a lot more experience already in life, knows what's important, and doesn't see everything as black and white as the Scoobies do.

 

[Flannen]

Actually, I think it just shows that Angel has a lot more experience already in life, knows what's important, and doesn't see everything as black and white as the Scoobies do.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it justifies the Scoobies acting unselfish.

When Giles comes back, for me, his reaction to Willow's spell to bring her back, was more about them being selfish than about the danger of the spell. His anger was quite out of character and I think it was about much more than just the nature of the spell itself!

 

[Wesley]

At the end of the day you have to take into account who they are. AI was a group of adults making adult decisions, The Scoobies are a bunch of teenagers finding their way. In retrospect it was extremely selfish of them to bring Buffy back, but what do you expect a bunch of 'kids' to do?

 

[Big Damn Hero]

Well, there was an important difference between Cordy and Buffy, in my opinion. Buffy was really dead and the Scoobies just jumped to natural conclusions, dead=bad. Cordy, on the other hand, was just missing. She could be anywhere, that's why they go looking for her. That leads to them definitely knowing where Cordy is, that it's not a bad place and that it's for the greater good. I'm sure, had the Scoobies figured out where Buffy was before they did the spell, I'm sure they would've also not done it anymore upon hearing where Buffy really was.

And a sort of semi-important point in my opinion, not everyone of the Scoobies were involved in the decision. So, if we really talk about the entire team, AI vs. Scoobies, I don't think we can base that on the Buffy death incidence.

What you said. 🙂 🙂

 

[Tasha]

I think that Cordy wasn't as important as Buffy, cos obviously buffy is a slayer and so on, i do agree that the scoobies never stopped to think first, they just thought
'oh Buffy's dead, that is bad'
Sunnydale needs her' blaa.....

i also agree that the scoobies actually witnessed Buffy dieing, and the Angel gang just thought Cordy is lost, she can't be in a bad place, she is where she can do more good.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I think that Cordy wasn't as important as Buffy, cos obviously buffy is a slayer and so on, i do agree that the scoobies never stopped to think first, they just thought
'oh Buffy's dead, that is bad'
Sunnydale needs her' blaa.....

I disagree. It wasn't about importance at all, she is the slayer or whatnot. At the end of the day they brought her back because they missed her, and, possibly, because they thought she was in a bad place. If Angel had thought Cordy to be in a Hell Dimension, I'm sure he would've tried to get her out of there just as fast!

 

[Crashing Doors]

When Giles comes back, for me, his reaction to Willow's spell to bring her back, was more about them being selfish than about the danger of the spell. His anger was quite out of character and I think it was about much more than just the nature of the spell itself!

The only thing out of character for his was his tone with Willow. Well, every now and then Giles rips on someone, but the way he spoke to Willow was just really biting. I didn't think the nature of his reaction was out of character though--he had a level head, and had he been involved in the decision, Buffy would never have been brought back to life. He had far too much respect for death, for Buffy, and he probably would not have jumped to the conclusion that Buffy was in "hell"

At the end of the day you have to take into account who they are. AI was a group of adults making adult decisions, The Scoobies are a bunch of teenagers finding their way. In retrospect it was extremely selfish of them to bring Buffy back, but what do you expect a bunch of 'kids' to do?

Well, they were what... 20 in season 6? (I'm assuming: 18/19 in season 4 since they were just out of HS, 19/20 in season 5, 20/21 season 6). Still young, but not quite "teenagers"--they were a bit more sophisticated than that. Still, I think they acted selfishly; Willow more than anyone. Given Tara's reaction to Dawn trying to bring back Joyce, I was surprised that Tara was involved with the Buffy resurrection.

I don't AI was "better" necessarily, they just had the experience and whatnot; they've probably all dealt with more loss and knew how to deal with it. The Scoobies hadn't really; I mean, I know they had, but not as much as AI probably did.

 

[sk]

If anything the Angel crew had the experience of knowing about the misstake Buffy's friends made.

Knowing how hard it was for Buffy coming back I'm guessing they wouldn't want to do that to Cordy.

/SK

 

[Revolver]

It wasn't about importance at all, she is the slayer or whatnot. At the end of the day they brought her back because they missed her.

I think importance had a lot to do with it. The two situations are not really the same. With the Scoobies, you lose Buffy and there is no team really. With AI, losing Cordy is unfortunate and a blow, but the team can go on. There's a reason the first show was called, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and the spinoff wasn't titled, "Cordelia the Vision Girl." Look how things ended up in Sunnydale with no Slayer around. The Bot certainly couldn't take care of things, and that motorcycle gang was really a pretty small threat by Sunnydale standards. Add to that the fact that Giles had left, and you have a crippled team that may be acting selfishly, but also somewhat understandably so. There was, after all, no Slayer coming to replace Buffy. Faith was behind bars, and the Scoobies (at that time) had very little reason to put their trust in her if she hadn't been.

Cordelia was important in that she got visions, and she was able to put things in perspective from time to time, but she wasn't absolutely essential to the AI dynamic, certainly not in the way Buffy was at least. They had Angel for supernatural powers, Gunn as backup muscle, Wes and Fred for the brains of the group. They would miss her, but could go on fighting pretty well without her. Do you guys think a crippled AI team would have responded as they did with Cordy if they'd lost Angel? Very different situation.

At any rate, saying one team is "better" than the other for this seems short-sighted to me. Despite all being heroes, all of the characters on Buffy and Angel are pretty flawed in many respects.

 

[Willow-Tree]

Well, the Scoobies are, for lack of a better word, more naive than Angel Investigations. It was mainly Willow, anyway, since she appeared to be the closest to Buffy.

But anyway, Angel had been through a lot, and I guess was used to people dying and leaving/disappearing every day. Not to say he did not care, which he did. But I guess it was easier for him to move on, whereas the Scoobies had never lost such an important person in their lives, and tried to do EVERYTHING they could to bring her back, and they did.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

I think it makes AI better than Willow. It was pretty much all her doing.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

One of them thought Buffy was in hell and that was that, Willow and Tara were supposed to be intelligent, so even a bit of commonsense would have indicated Buffy was not in hell.
They simply did not care, they just wanted their friend back.

Buffy battled the evil, she was ' chosen ' to battle the evil. A person with a bit of intelligence would have thought she is probably in heaven.
Now had she battled the good then she may have gone to hell although being a Chosen One she may have referred to hell as heaven.

 

[Revolver]

Buffy battled the evil, she was ' chosen ' to battle the evil. A person with a bit of intelligence would have thought she is probably in heaven.
Now had she battled the good then she may have gone to hell although being a Chosen One she may have referred to hell as heaven.

This makes sense if you look at the situation from, for instance, a Christian perspective on Heaven and Hell but those rules don't seem to apply on Buffy/Angel. When the gang finds out Buffy was in Heaven, Tara mentions that they don't even know what Heavenly dimension Buffy might have been in. This suggests it isn't something cut and dry like good people end up in this spot, and bad people end up in this spot. And it doesn't seem as though good people can't end up in bad dimensions in the Buffyverse. Fred ended up in Pylea. Connor (when he was but an innocent child) ended up in Quor Toth or however one spells that place. And if anyone can potentially end up anywhere, it isn't THAT much of a stretch to think that Buffy might have ended up some place worse given the circumstances of her death. She did, after all, die trying to seal up the entrance to a sort of hell dimemsion.

There's definitely an element of selfishness to Willow and crew's actions, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's quite as bad as: We know Buffy is in Heaven. We don't care, as long as we have our friend back. Get her out of there!"

 

[InsaneMystic]

And it doesn't seem as though good people can't end up in bad dimensions in the Buffyverse. Fred ended up in Pylea. Connor (when he was but an innocent child) ended up in Quor Toth or however one spells that place. And if anyone can potentially end up anywhere, it isn't THAT much of a stretch to think that Buffy might have ended up some place worse given the circumstances of her death. She did, after all, die trying to seal up the entrance to a sort of hell dimemsion.

I really think Fred & Connor are out of place in that discussion, as neither one was dead, right? Physically traveling to alternate dimensions (which, btw, was what happened to Angel, too, in Becoming!) and dying and passing on to some kind of afterlife are entirely two different pairs of shoes.

The decision to bring Buffy back, and its rationales (including the "we need a Slayer" part - I'm certain another one was called after The Gift. Shut up, Joss. 😛 ), never made any sense at all to me. Biting as it is for me as a Willow fan, I have to agree with what Q-Tip said - the whole situation proves how far gone from rational and "good" Willow was as early as over the S5/S6 summer, and that AI had her seriously owned in those respects dealing with the Cordy sitch.