Question Alter-egos and...stuff?

[EVIL UU]

Guys, guys listen up - what if, what if there are no, like, evil twins? Alter-egos? What if it's just a rationalization, something the characters want to believe that is not necessarily true? There's no Angel or Angelus - it's just Angel, the same guy. No vampire Willow, Dark Willow and Willow - it's just Willow. No Anya and Anyanka, just Anya. No Ripper and Giles, just Giles. No hyena Xander and Xander, just Xander. No Spike or...well, Spike, it's just, you know, Spike. Huh. Basically, what if the emboldened assholes don't really exist as separate entities? All smoke and mirrors, lies and bullshit. No exceptions.

Doesn't that make more sense? Redemption arcs suddenly work. Characters gaynesses ( by the way, I love this word ) don't come out of nowhere. No he and you soul confusion either. So maybe we should stop gobbling up this garbage and accept the evil that's within the characters. Wouldn't that make them even more complex? Entertaining? Cooler? The story more sensible and coherent? Think about it, it's not crazy talk isn't it?

 

[thetopher]

This is why I tend to prefer characters who don't have alter-ego's or whatever...or really just whiny excuses in some cases.

Giles/Ripper is the exact same guy just older and wiser and more stable.

Faith S3 screws up royaly then, no bullshit, just tries to make amends and do the right thing. By the comics she's a fairly decent human being, its just she's grown- like a normal person does.

Wesley goes dark over the course of Angel because he screws up and hurts/ruins another person, no demons, no soul/no soul, or possession. In the end he loses everything, including his life.

Far more interesting characters imo.
Also as the shows (by that I mean Buffy) go on redemption arcs got lazier and lazier until they weren't even trying by S7. Characters would do/say horrible things and other people just didn't give a damn.
Look at Anya, or Willow or Spike?

 

[white avenger]

Let me get this straight here. Humor an old man. No free rides, no "Get Out Of Jail Free" passes, and "It was all for the greater good," excuses for ANYBODY!? It wouldn't ever work, because every member of the cast would be either dead, dusted, or incarcerated within two episodes of being introduced. Sunnydale would be a wasteland, with Willie the bartender being the only human resident.

What are you, some kind of trouble maker?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

It would be extremely difficult to feel bad for the characters but it would give more meaning to the redemption arcs. I don't mind the idea of an alter-ego. I think deep down most people have some sort of alter-ego that they keep buried because they know that doing bad things is wrong. My alter-ego would probably be more like Faith, which is why I connect with her character. I do think they gloss over Xander and Willow. Was it made clear in 'The Pack' if the hyena possession, was the hyena in control or was it bringing out the worst in Xander, or a bit of both? I don't remember if they were clear on how it worked. And only Giles knows that Xander remembers everything. I wish that would have came back up in a later season, where Xander accidentally says something that indicates he remembers and Buffy and Willow find out. Buffy purposefully tells Willow that her vamp self has nothing to do with her real self. And while Willow does feel bad about killing Warren she's more upset about the magic of it all.

This is why I tend to prefer characters who don't have alter-ego's or whatever...or really just whiny excuses in some cases.
they weren't even trying by S7. Characters would do/say horrible things and other people just didn't give a damn.
Look at Anya, or Willow or Spike?

Yea, that is why I love Faith because she is a more realistic character and she can't blame her bad things on anyone else.

The problem with Anya is, 1) they never really fully explained vengeance demons, we don't know if becoming a demon changes them, or if they just get powers and a scary face. And 2) partly because of that, we can't separate Anya from Anyanka. She basically like pre soul Spike and soul Spike. When she's human she doesn't kill anyone but she's not trying to make amends or losing sleep over it. She sees it as it was her job and she was helping people they hurt so they deserve it. She doesn't see it as hurting them, like poor Olaf who was turned into a troll. I was just one wench. Spike sees it as I was a souless vampire, that's just what we do. Not every one needs to feel the guilt that Angel feels, but it should be more clear if we are to empathize with the characters. It seemed like they were going to give Anya some sort of redemption at the end of 'Selfless' but then the next episode she is robbing banks under a love spell. Yea they just gave up by S7. Look at Andrew, does he ever pay for killing Jonathon? I know he breaks down and cries but that's it.

 

[white avenger]

It would be extremely difficult to feel bad for the characters but it would give more meaning to the redemption arcs. I don't mind the idea of an alter-ego. I think deep down most people have some sort of alter-ego that they keep buried because they know that doing bad things is wrong. My alter-ego would probably be more like Faith, which is why I connect with her character. I do think they gloss over Xander and Willow. Was it made clear in 'The Pack' if the hyena possession, was the hyena in control or was it bringing out the worst in Xander, or a bit of both? I don't remember if they were clear on how it worked. And only Giles knows that Xander remembers everything. I wish that would have came back up in a later season, where Xander accidentally says something that indicates he remembers and Buffy and Willow find out. Buffy purposefully tells Willow that her vamp self has nothing to do with her real self. And while Willow does feel bad about killing Warren she's more upset about the magic of it all.


Yea, that is why I love Faith because she is a more realistic character and she can't blame her bad things on anyone else.

The problem with Anya is, 1) they never really fully explained vengeance demons, we don't know if becoming a demon changes them, or if they just get powers and a scary face. And 2) partly because of that, we can't separate Anya from Anyanka. She basically like pre soul Spike and soul Spike. When she's human she doesn't kill anyone but she's not trying to make amends or losing sleep over it. She sees it as it was her job and she was helping people they hurt so they deserve it. She doesn't see it as hurting them, like poor Olaf who was turned into a troll. I was just one wench. Spike sees it as I was a souless vampire, that's just what we do. Not every one needs to feel the guilt that Angel feels, but it should be more clear if we are to empathize with the characters. It seemed like they were going to give Anya some sort of redemption at the end of 'Selfless' but then the next episode she is robbing banks under a love spell. Yea they just gave up by S7. Look at Andrew, does he ever pay for killing Jonathon? I know he breaks down and cries but that's it.

Come right down to it, Angel is just about the only one in the Buffyverse who DOES retain the guilt of his alter ego's sins and atrocities and carries out a supposedly ongoing mission to earn whatever redemption might be forthcoming. Everyone else either 1)puts it in perspective, accepts that the past is, indeed, past, and gets on with their lives, trying to learn from their earlier mistakes, or 2)doesn't care, and has neither enough shame nor regret for anything that they might have done previously, depending on your interpretation and assessment of each character, to make any attempt at amends. Of all the characters in the Buffyverse, including Angel, the only one who actually owns up to, and accepts punishment for, their crimes is Faith, and only the reality of the world and her role in it (personified, ironically, by Angel himself) forced her to walk away from that punishment