Am I the only one with No sympathy whatsoever for Holtz?

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CordelliasHeart

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Am I the only person with no real sympathy for Holtz, by the time he dies, who seriously, and genuinely hopes, he DOES go to hell, to burn for eternity.

He seems a bit too sane, for me to argue hes not culpable for his actions on the basis of having been driven mad.
 
Honestly, it's difficult for me not to feel sympathetic whenever we witness how he was tormented. Just the thought alone of his child being turned into a vampire gives me chills. I take it as a metaphor for the vulnerability of innocence.

On the other hand, I was bothered on a moral level (and I assume this is what the writers intended) when Holtz finds out that Angel now has a soul, and he (Holtz) only wants vengeance against Angel even more. It's at that point that Holtz has gone from being an antihero to a complete antagonist, in my mind.

With respect to his culpability, it seems to me there's no way to know, much like in real life where we cannot get inside another person's consciousness to analyze his or her knowledge of morality.
 
By the time he dies I don't feel sorry for him but at the start I sure did.

We know Angel by this time. We know how he's trying to make up for everything bad he's done. So we want him to "win". If we'd only have had access to Holtz's point of view I'm guessing we'd seen the story quite differently. What we already know is difficult to ignore though.
 
I felt sympathy for Holtz at the beginning of the arc. I understood his anger and his anguish. However, as the writers intended, he crosses the line far past the point of no return.

As the post above me said, Holtz finding out that Angel isn't Angelus, and then desiring vengeance and Angel's death even more, is just evil to me. He fully acknowledges that Angel isn't culpable for Angelus' crimes against his family, and he doesn't care. That's when he crosses the threshold. Plus, the way he treats Wesley is beyond unconscionable.

I have the impression that once upon a time, Holtz was a good man. But he isn't any longer, and ultimately he's the one who made that decision. Giles was able to come to terms with Angel, because he saw the grey. Holtz didn't even make an attempt.
 
By the time Holtz died, I felt nothing but hate for him. He was absolutely monstrous... I felt bad for him in the beginning but after he stole Connor and how he manipulated Justine into nearly decapitating Wes, I wanted him dead.
 
I always found his character very hard to sympathize with. I felt bad about how pitiful his life turned out after the loss of his family, but what we saw of him, he was cold hearted and full of evil and hate. I don't think Holtz had much moral superiority to the vampires he hunted.
 
Taake
Taake
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Personally, I think letting him find out, about Angeluses Reensoulment, was a mistake on the authors part.

The char would have worked great as a one note or even 2 part villain showdown.

but it was impossible realistic to do a multi episode bit without him learning.

Thing is, him learning that and NOT CARING, ruins his appearent original role of being a more sympathetic charachter, still filled with hate towards a man who no longer exists.
 
Lets not forget that he didn't only steal Angels son but subjected an innocent child to a childhood in a hell dimension.
 
I can't say I hate Holtz but the more I think about him and what he has done the more I feel like I should. I understand the horror of what he went through but at the same time we all have a choice and he continually choose to inflict pain and misery. The fact that he experienced both himself doesn't make it understandable that that is how he chose to deal with his trauma. What he did to Angel, to Connor and to Wesley is approaching the cruelty of Angelus and Darla, perhaps even equal to it.

I sympathise with him to a point but once he begins to poor evil into the world I care less and less.
 
Curious... 2 questions on connor?


His line "Even if, you still deserve it" while sounding uncertain... I would have thought an appalled denial a "DONT try slandering my father,l my FATHER who you murdered!" would have been more likely... Connor seems quicker to try justifying his actions in that context, then to try to dismiss Holtz framing angel, as a lie.


Am I right that his "you let him get me" line, indicates Connor had finally come to accept himself as a victim of Holtz.


Finally, think if Connor had met Justine again he'd have anything to say to her, think it would be more "You murdered my Father!" or "You tricked me into imprisoning my father!"


Had to get all that off my chest.
 
[MENTION=12380]CordelliasHeart[/MENTION]: I think the castle of lies that Holtz had constructed for him, inside Connor was going already crumbling. He lived with Fred and Gunn for three months, and although Connor was not yet fully aware of the seriousness of his actions, his certainties have collapsed when Angel told him what he did Holtz. Connor knows very well the determination of Holtz, he knows that Holtz was able to make what he did, and had no difficulty in believing Angel.
 
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