And once again, Spike is considered a hero...

Originally posted by Leshy
So let's say she does kill everyone who becomes a threat at any point. Who would have been dead by now?

Xander - killed off when he was a hyena guy
Willow - killed off when she became an evil witch
Giles - killed off when he became a demon
Angel - killed off when he lost his soul
Spike - killed off pretty much whenever
Dawn - killed off to prevent Glory from using her
Anya - killed off when she was killing frat boys
Oz - killed when he became a werewolf

The show and her circle of friends would be running quite thin rather fast, don't you think? 🙂
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yea, but

xander - they could and did easily turn him back
giles - he still had control, and didn't want to hurt anyone
angel - ..she did kill him
spike - they tried to kill him, until he got the chip
dawn - she was innocent
oz - they controlled that with the cage

i think killing evil willow or anyanka would have been fair though, since they had control over what they did
 
Originally posted by captain peroxide
yea, but

oz - they controlled that with the cage
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Well umh you could easily cage Spike as well, and he didn't have control over the trigger so Spike and Oz are compareable. They both turned into monsters against their will at a certain occasion.
 
But Buffy didn't cage Spike. She didn't kill him. She let him run around with that trigger in his head so that he could have the chance to butcher more people. If they kept him locked up there wouldn't have been such a large problem, but they didn't seem to be able to (they did have him locked up a couple times and he got out every stinkin' time) and Buffy didn't seem to even want to keep him chained.
 
Originally posted by Happy
She let him run around with that trigger in his head so that he could have the chance to butcher more people.
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He was chained to the wall up until the point where they thought it safe to let him out again. And they were correct, since Spike hasn't killed anyone after they found out about the trigger, if I recall correctly.

I wonder how people think of someone wanting to kill Faith for what she has done in the recent past. Should they be allowed to?
 
Well, I don't support killing Faith now, much like I don't support killing Spike at the moment either. Do I think that Faith should have been killed during season 3, no. Faith has a soul and it's not Buffy's place to kill people. They did chain her up and things went bad, she got loose, then everyone tried to kill her.

That's the problem with Spike, they didn't keep Spike chained. He's been running around free off and on since they've found out about the trigger. After they put the stone in his melon and they saw the trigger was still in place, Buffy let him walk around unchained, knowing he was still a danger. I don't neccissarily think that Spike needed to die when he had the trigger (though when he was chipped and souless the boy should have been dust), but they should have at least kept him on a leash.

Wood tried to kill Spike, and now everyone jumps all over him for it. Now here's the kicker... THEY ALL DID THE EXACT SAME THING TO FAITH! The Watchers tried to kill her and Buffy tried to kill her without the Scoobies so much as suggesting that it was wrong. They were both dangerous, they both had a choice (why the hell didn't Spike lock himself up?), they both had a chance to be saved (Faith finding redemption, Spike being de-triggered). They try to kill Faith, then turn around and tell Wood he's been a bad little boy for attempting the same thing they attempted with Spike. I just don't think you can blame Wood, he did exactly what they did, why should HE be penalized them for acting like them?.
 
Originally posted by Happy

Wood tried to kill Spike, and now everyone jumps all over him for it. Now here's the kicker... THEY ALL DID THE EXACT SAME THING TO FAITH! The Watchers tried to kill her and Buffy tried to kill her without the Scoobies so much as suggesting that it was wrong. They were both dangerous, they both had a choice (why the hell didn't Spike lock himself up?), they both had a chance to be saved (Faith finding redemption, Spike being de-triggered). They try to kill Faith, then turn around and tell Wood he's been a bad little boy for attempting the same thing they attempted with Spike. I just don't think you can blame Wood, he did exactly what they did, why should HE be penalized them for acting like them?.
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Please tell me how the scenarios compare, Wood is after vengeance after what Spike as a soulless unchipped vampire did in the 70s. While Faith in S3 went berzerk and made their life a living hell, she was bad and evil back then and needed to be taken out of the game much like Spike needed before he was chipped.

Faith wasn't close to finding redemption since she was a girl in a world where she saw things frm her sociopathic way instead of what it is. I agree though in S4 of Buffy/S1 of Angel - Buffy acted wrong, however she was not aware of the situation. All Buffy knew was that Faith had destroyed their life again in Sunnydale and run off to LA.

To get back to the Spike situation, BTVS deals with human emotions and make them as realistic as possible to fit the situation. Buffys feelings for Spike obviously gets in the way of logical thinking, and Woods feelings towards Spike obviously get in the way of logical thinking. Giles however I really can't understand why he would take such actions, he could talk to Buffy - she listens to him and then convinced her that Spike needs to be chained up until they find a solution. Much like Buffy listened to him when he said that everyone is expendable and liabilities must be removed. Wood in this case was a liability in her mind, and pretty much in logical sense too - which is why she told him she would let Spike kill him the next time because otherwise it would indanger the life of her friends and everyone else.

As a conclusion, yeah they should have approached the situation differently and not unchained him - but it's still not just for Wood to just attack and try to kill Spike out of the blue. And specially using the cheapest tricks of them all, actually bringing out the demon in him using the trigger. But you got to give him credit, he did cure Spike.
 
Okay Razekiel... here goes.

Buffy was after vengeance when she went after Faith for what she did to Angel, just like Wood was after vengeance for what Spike did to his mother. Buffy never really went after Faith until Faith hurt Angel. She later hunted down Faith after she screwed Riley. It was all about vengeance and personal interest. Faith had a soul much like Spike does and therefore should have been restrained not killed, a Slayer slays, they aren't supposed to murder.

Faith wasn't close to redemption, but she still had a shot at it. Even Buffy recognized this, she thought that Faith might have developed remorse for what she did prior to meeting on campus after Faith woke from her coma. Spike wasn't neccissarily any closer to undoing his trigger (if he was they certainly didn't know about it) than Faith was to seeing the light. The two situations DO compare.

Buffy listens to Giles now? He did tell her that Spike was dangerous and a liability on several occations. She just kept saying things like 'he can be good, I FEEL it!'. She didn't listen, he tried another method. She wasn't willing so Giles decieded to get the job done, that's what he does. He looks out for Buffy when she doesn't do it herself.
 
Originally posted by Razekiel

To get back to the Spike situation, BTVS deals with human emotions and make them as realistic as possible to fit the situation. Buffys feelings for Spike obviously gets in the way of logical thinking, and Woods feelings towards Spike obviously get in the way of logical thinking. Giles however I really can't understand why he would take such actions, he could talk to Buffy - she listens to him and then convinced her that Spike needs to be chained up until they find a solution. Much like Buffy listened to him when he said that everyone is expendable and liabilities must be removed. Wood in this case was a liability in her mind, and pretty much in logical sense too - which is why she told him she would let Spike kill him the next time because otherwise it would indanger the life of her friends and everyone else.
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Buffy listens to Giles now? He did tell her that Spike was dangerous and a liability on several occations. She just kept saying things like 'he can be good, I FEEL it!'. She didn't listen, he tried another method. She wasn't willing so Giles decieded to get the job done, that's what he does. He looks out for Buffy when she doesn't do it herself.
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Sometimes Buffy listens to Giles and sometimes she doesn't. A lot depends on the state of their emotions, stress, etc. I think Buffy was right to have been angry at Giles for going behind her back, but she should have worked it out with him instead of slamming the door in his face. Giles, in turn, should have realized that lying to Buffy was a major risk in losing her trust.

As for his motivativation in agreeing to the Spike/Wood confrontation, I'm wondering if he hoped a) to get Spike to deal with his trigger, and b) to find out whether Spike or Wood was the greater liability in the process.
 
Let's try not to fault Giles for being less than honest with Buffy. Remember when Angel came back after torturing Giles half to death and she hid him from the gang? Remember her secret relationship with a souless Spike? Remember when she didn't fess up about Spike being able to hit her, and she thought she might be a little demony from her trip to the afterlife and didn't share that tid bit of information? Remeber when she kept the fact from everybody that they yanked her out of heaven and not some hell dimension? Remember when she and Faith were a party to the murder of a human being and it was days before she decided to break down and tell Giles? Remember when Buffy lied to Giles about, I believe it was her mother being sick, so she could go to that giant snake-guy frat party?

Yet she still holds a little deception against him?
 
YEAH! I like you, Billy Blood!

Anyway-- just because Buffy is not always honest with herself and the gang, she has put her entire faith in Giles! Giles has been her rock and her fountain of knowledge and strength since the show.

With his recent stunt though, she has seen her rock is actually made of sand and her relationship with him is slowly crumbling. Giles should have discussed things first (yes, I know, he's discussed it many times before), but he should have tried harder to make his point.

But-- I think Buffy and her decisions are to be respected. She has had seven years experience with these kinds of decision making and I think she made the right choice in shutting Giles out. I think that her world is crumbling and pretty much all of her relationships on the show have dissipated, so she has no one left. Everyone has moved on to their own relationships and there is absolutely no Scooby Gang left. So, all she essentially has left now to be her rock and source of strength is Spike. She needs to keep him around for her emotional purposes (AND because she DOES LOVE him 🙂 )

So, let the essentially strongest fighter in this fight against major evil make the decisions about who stays and who goes.
 
The problem with Giles just trying harder to talk with Buffy about Spike is that it would never have worked. Buffy thinks with her heart. She has, and will, knowingly turn a blind eye to the truth when it comes to those she cares deeply for. She did it with Angel and she's doing it with Spike. Giles took the only option he thought he had to remove what he concidered to be a dangerous element from the group. If Spike's trigger had been actiivated and he butchered all the SiTs then everybody would have been screwed. It didn't happen, but not only could it have happened, it was likely. Giles, as he is prone to, set his emotions aside and did what he thought had to be done, something which although Buffy says she is capable of doing, she has never been able to truely do in the past (at least not until the world is about two seconds away from total destruction).

Yes Buffy's world is crumbling. Yes, her friends are slipping away. What did you expect to happen? Buffy is becoming harder and harder and is shutting them out one by one. She doesn't take their advise and questions their usefulless. Buffy has cut herself off from her compassion and emotions (except apparently for those she still harbors for Spike). Those were her best attributes and her greatest strength. We've seen what happens when a Slayer does this, remember Faith? It should be interesting when Faith returns to see her reaction to the new colder Buffy.

It should also be noted that in the previous six years Buffy didn't make the hard decisions on her own, in fact, until now she never did. At the beginning that job fell to Giles and he continued to advise and help her as time went on (remember Ben?).



"So, let the essentially strongest fighter in this fight against major evil make the decisions about who stays and who goes."

- SpikedBuffy


That would be the entire problem. Buffy is the strongest fighter. That doesn't qualify her to lead. Just because she can bash something really hard doesn't mean she is wise and all-knowing. She has so far proven herself incapable of making the tough calls (Angel and Dawn for instance). This kind of thing has always been and should still be Giles' department. He IS willing to do what must be done. We've seen this. To be entirely frank, even with the decpetion, I would trust Giles over anyone else in the group to do what must be done when everything is on the line. He can set self-interest and emotion aside. He was the brain. Cold, calculating, logical and pratical. Buffy was the heart. She tempered his wisdom with soul and compassion. Now we have no one playing this role. She isn't cut out to play the role of leader, she might be someday, but she just doesn't seem ready. Together with Giles making the tough calls and Buffy advising him, they made a great team, when Buffy stepped up to assume his role all that was lost. She's trying to play a part she doesn't seem to be cut out for and it seems to be destroying her.
 
I think though, that she has finally realized that her being the Slayer, means she is supposed to be alone and make the decisions herself. She knows she is not cut out for it, but it is her duty. There is no way around it.

With an apocolypse coming of epic proportions, it's time she took matters into her own hands. She did this exact thing at the end of season five. She could have listened to Giles and sacrifice Dawn, cuz let's all remember that he wanted to kill her. Instead, she sacrificed herself because she is too passionate about people to have them die.

The situation is kind of the same now. Maybe a little different, because she knows in her heart, that many people (people that she loves) are going to suffer in this final battle, and she still does not want them to suffer, even though they are shutting her out of their lives. She would still sacrifice herself to save the world.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I had a point, and I lost it. Darn brain! I think my point was that she is the strongest fighter and she's ready to do something about it, even if it is destroying her.
 
Yes at the end of season 5 she took matters into her own hands, and her hands alone, for the first 'real' time when she sacrificed herself for Dawn. Ironically, the way this season is playing out it may have been one of the worst decisions available. If her second mystical return from the grave is what is making the Slayer line vulnerable than she may be the cause behind all the trouble. If they'd just done the prudent thing and offed Dawn than every thing might have been fine.
 
Re: Re: And once again, Spike is considered a hero...

Originally posted by Tyra
I don't think Spike came out as the hero of the piece; he was just the only one who managed to more or less work through his issues.

Clearly, Buffy and Giles still have a lot to work out, and it's questionable whether or not Wood will ever get any sense of closure about his mother.



Buffy should have let Giles talk instead of slamming the door in his face. She's also a little too soft on Spike. But Wood is a loose cannon and I agree with the way she treated him.
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I would have to agree with you that Buffy was probably overly harsh with Giles. However, the question seemed to be one of ultimate leadership. Who is to be the general, and who the soldier? It is clear that Giles feels that he is still the general, and at the same time Buffy feels that she is now the commanding officer of their little anti-apocalypse brigade. Sadly, we can't have 2 co-leaders, as a democracy of 2 can lead to stalemate - requiring a resolution. A 'Hung Jury' situation cannot be allowed as there really is no time to spare with the world hanging in the balance. Thus a single leader needs to be chosen to ensure efficient action against The First.

Of the two, Buffy and Giles, I can not tell you which is more capable to make the final decisions. However, what I can say is that Giles is certainly more expendable to the cause than Buffy (thus ensuring that she WILL get her way if she presses the issue - and she clearly has) and also I can point out that in this conflict of opinion Buffy was correct. The risk of Spike's survival paid off for her. Spike is cured of the trigger, and she gets to keep her fighter. Now that in no way means her choices will always be the correct one. Certainly a leader has to be open to the opinions of the opposition. She is bound to make mistakes. BUT there can only be one leader in a military scenario, where time is of the essence. Buffy has made it clear that she will be that leader.

I honestly believe that Buffy has been far to harsh with her 'new army'. She has transformed into something of a she-dog. However, i think the world could forgive the crabbyness of it's saviour when all is said and done, if the greater good is achieved.
 
But Buffy wasn't correct. The gambit paid off, but it may very well not have. Just because things turn out well doesn't mean it was a good decision.

Also, if Wood hadn't confronted Spike the trigger may well have remained. Spike didn't want to have to deal with it and was just as happy with it sitting in his subconcious. The conflict between him and Wood caused him to deal with it and thus deactivate the trigger. So if Giles and Wood hadn't conspired together then Spike would still be an instrument of the First.
 
Originally posted by Allycat
And as Xander wouldn't have been there to preform CPR on Buffy she would be dead as well!

Faith would have been killed too!

Cordy, Wesley, Tara, Joyce, Jenny and Riley are the 'regulars' that wouldn't have been killed of!
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Killing people is fun!

Let's see... Assuming that Buffy somehow didn't die without Xander there to perform CPR, let's see how we can arrange it so she kills of the other people you mentioned.

Cordy: Cordy isn't necessarily a "threat" in the ordinary sense, but while they're in high school together, Cordy often threatens Buffy's sense of well being and helps destroy her popularity. Cordy's gotta die! Go Buffy!

Wesley: When he first showed up, he showed poor judgement repeatedly: he didn't handle Faith well, he had "impure thoughts" with regards to Cordy and, IIRC, he got in Angel's way just when Angel was finally making a breakthrough with Faith. Kill 'im!

Tara: This is a tough one. She's such a good person... Only thing I can think of is, if Buffy were highly right-wing conservative, she might decide that lesbianism and witchcraft are evil and punishable by death. It's a stretch though...

Joyce: We can have Buffy kill her own mom in the season 3 episode Gingerbread. In this one, Buffy's mom, along with many other parents in town, are under the effect of a demon's spell that makes them all go on a literal witch hunt. In this one, we could consider Joyce a "threat". Valid target! Go Buffy!

Jenny: No need to kill her since Angelus will do it. But if we want a reason, it's easy. Miss Calendar didn't reveal her real reason for being there. The scoobies had to discover it later. (Actually it was a prophetic dream of Buffy's that made it obvious to her.) So Buffy kills her on the grounds that she can't trust Jenny to tell the truth. Go Buffy!

Riley: Well, how can Buffy possibly forgive him for leaving her? I mean how could he do that to her? That's inconsiderate and dangerous see, 'cause she's the slayer. And him breaking up with her will cause her mental anguish. And that might throw her off her game, and then someone might die that she would've been able to save otherwise. Therefore, for the saftey of the world, Buffy would have to hunt down Riley whereever he is and kill him. It's fun!

----

Okay, yeah I know that's all nuts. If there was a point, I think it was something like: It's no surprise that Buffy treats "threats" differently when she has a personal relationship with them. She's no fool. When she has a personal attachment to someone, it affects her judgment. There's no way around that. Typically, she tries to err on the side of caution by not killing the "threat". And the reason to go that way is simple. Suppose you make the wrong decsion? Well if you didn't kill them when you should have, you can always go kill them now. If, on the otherhand, you killed them when you shouldn't have... Well just look at what it did to Faith.

(Yeah, I know there are still some problems with this reasoning: like when you don't kill someone (Angelus) and then they go killing people (Jenny, et al.). Hey, I never said it was perfect.)
 
Originally posted by Happy
But Buffy wasn't correct. The gambit paid off, but it may very well not have. Just because things turn out well doesn't mean it was a good decision.

Also, if Wood hadn't confronted Spike the trigger may well have remained. Spike didn't want to have to deal with it and was just as happy with it sitting in his subconcious. The conflict between him and Wood caused him to deal with it and thus deactivate the trigger. So if Giles and Wood hadn't conspired together then Spike would still be an instrument of the First.
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Quite possibly. But what you said about Buffy's decision in your first paragraph applies equally to the Giles/Wood conspiracy.

(BTW, does anyone other than me wonder if Giles had a different, unrevealed agenda when he agreed to Wood's plan?)
 
Originally posted by Tyra
Quite possibly. But what you said about Buffy's decision in your first paragraph applies equally to the Giles/Wood conspiracy.
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Heh. I think that's the same thing I've been saying. 🙂 (Not the killing people part, I was just being ludicrous there.) I.e. Buffy made bad decisions and so did Giles and Wood. They shouldn't be making plans in secret. That will divide them and make them easy pickings for The First.

Originally posted by Tyra
(BTW, does anyone other than me wonder if Giles had a different, unrevealed agenda when he agreed to Wood's plan?)
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I hadn't thought of that, but it is a neat idea. Anyway, according to the Next Week on "Buffy" & "Angel" page, it should all be done by 5-20-03. We won't have to guess anymore after that. 🙂
 
Originally posted by Happy
But Buffy wasn't correct. The gambit paid off, but it may very well not have. Just because things turn out well doesn't mean it was a good decision.

Also, if Wood hadn't confronted Spike the trigger may well have remained. Spike didn't want to have to deal with it and was just as happy with it sitting in his subconcious. The conflict between him and Wood caused him to deal with it and thus deactivate the trigger. So if Giles and Wood hadn't conspired together then Spike would still be an instrument of the First.
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That is true I suppose. There is no guarantee Spike would have been de-triggered without the conspiracy, but of course there is no guarantee they would not have found another way.

No one ever achieves success without taking a gamble. Playing it safe is very ineffective in life as a general rule. While it may seem that gambling with the future of the world is wrong, I would suggest that being unable to risk anything leaves you highly vulnerable in and of itself. This concept is pretty much standard doctrine in the business world for instance. Companies that are unwilling to gamble eventually go out of business. IBM was in this position until they adopted a recently new risk-taking philosophy.

The question is wether or not keeping Spike was a good gamble. That's hard to say really. But I know where I'd put my money. I'd put it on the one who made bets that payed off. It could be because they play the odds well. It could be because they are lucky. Regardless of which of those played the stronger role, success is a powerful message. The quality of her choice became manifest the moment it proved to be the right one 🙂

*edited for spelling corrections*
 
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