Andrew

[Whistler]

So what'd you guys think? Is his character believable or not? Do you really think he could have turned into the guy that showed up in Season 5? I mean I'm not going to lie, when he showed up demanding that the slayer be given to him I couldn't believe it. I mean he stood up to Angel, even before the Slayers showed up. So do you guys think that he could actually change?

 

[Randy Giles]

Why can't a character change? Look at Wes, at how wimpy and loser-ish he was when we first saw him. Then look at how quickly he turned into one of the darkest and most tragic characters in the show.

I liked Andrew from season six of Buffy all the way to his appearance in Angel. He matured a lot, but still remained very funny. Gotta love that.

Should they ever finally do a Faith-oriented spin-off, I demand Tom Lenk to be in the cast. 🙂

 

[Rayne]

I think it's very possible. We have no idea what direction things took once we left Buffy and the gang. I'd like to think that with the right influence Andrew could be the kind of guy that showed up in Angel.

 

[Whistler]

i'm not going to lie, i LOVED it how he stood up to angel. angel tried to brush him back like 4 times and andrew just wouldn't quit. he was, to use an angel phrase, "fighting the good fight" whereas at this time he knew that angel and co. were not. i think that's a big reason why he had no fear here, that plus the dozen or so slayers at his back. but still i thought it was huge seeing andrew grow up like this, and at the end i was more excited for andrew then i was surprised at him. so i guess that means he has changed.

 

[Luciferian]

Andrew was one of the funniest characters ive seen in both series. Seeing him change would have been odd but it would have been fun. i would like to see what he could get himself into

 

[The Arcane]

Andrew never really changed. At heart he was still just role playing, only now as a Watcher.

The thing about Andrew was that he was able to fool himself into believing his own fantasies, to the point of delusion. Whether it was being a crime lord, a hero or anything else. He could put on a costume and that would be all he needed to become that version of "Andrew".

Besides, don't forget that when he stood up to Angel he had a small army of slayers backing him up. Who wouldn't be confident? 😉

 

[Angel's vision]

I'm with Arcane here, even though i didn't LIKE Andrews backstabbing, i wouldn't call it standing up to Angel more like Angel realised he had backstabbed him, and wasn't too happy, he thought that he WAS fighting the good fight at W&H that was the problem and Andrew didn't see it that way.Hense the verbal slagging at the end. Even Angel realised What Arcane pionted out, that was probably why he was reluctant to hand over Dana.
Even though, both parties were not qualified to help her at all.
Angel should of backed down, knowing Andrew had done what he did just to save him being humiliated, but being a stubborn oaf that he can be....
So anyway having careered slighty off topic voicing an objective view, To Look at the evidence, Andrew's speech near the end of chosen which included "I wish to thank the powers of darkness" not long after thanking the powers of good if my memory serves, dosen't give me much confidence he felt any remorse..or indeed showed he could change, he exagerated his prowess in AS5 aswell.It felt like it Andrew was just picking the winning team.

 

[Luciferian]

I'm with Arcane here, even though i didn't LIKE Andrews backstabbing, i wouldn't call it standing up to Angel more like Angel realised he had backstabbed him, and wasn't too happy, he thought that he WAS fighting the good fight at W&H that was the problem and Andrew didn't see it that way.Hense the verbal slagging at the end. Even Angel realised What Arcane pionted out, that was probably why he was reluctant to hand over Dana.
Even though, both parties were not qualified to help her at all.
Angel should of backed down, knowing Andrew had done what he did just to save him being humiliated, but being a stubborn oaf that he can be....
So anyway having careered slighty off topic voicing an objective view, To Look at the evidence, Andrew's speech near the end of chosen which included "I wish to thank the powers of darkness" not long after thanking the powers of good if my memory serves, dosen't give me much confidence he felt any remorse..or indeed showed he could change, he exagerated his prowess in AS5 aswell.It felt like it Andrew was just picking the winning team.

Andrew was rather annoying though. he was a good character and going against angel was took guts but i think he's a coward. Like you said he went for the winning team, and angel against a small army of slayers....not much challenge

 

[JCC]

All of this "Andrew is a coward, he just picked the winning team" crap is just that, crap.

Andrew to my knowledge had never even met Angel, and if he had it would only have been brief, why the hell would he go over to LA to work for someone who he's basically never even talked to instead of staying with Giles, who you could say he became a friend with over the time of being trapped in the house.

You've already said that Andrew wasn't the bravest person of the group, and that's exactly why he wouldn't go into unknown terrority like that. He goes where he knows what's happening and who is who. And besides, think about it, if the guy has been taught for the last two or three years that Wolfram and Hart is the vessel of evil, you don't turn over such an opinion the second someone says "Yeah, but we're making it nice".

 

[Angel's vision]

All of this "Andrew is a coward, he just picked the winning team" crap is just that, crap.

Andrew to my knowledge had never even met Angel, and if he had it would only have been brief, why the hell would he go over to LA to work for someone who he's basically never even talked to instead of staying with Giles, who you could say he became a friend with over the time of being trapped in the house.

You've already said that Andrew wasn't the bravest person of the group, and that's exactly why he wouldn't go into unknown terrority like that. He goes where he knows what's happening and who is who. And besides, think about it, if the guy has been taught for the last two or three years that Wolfram and Hart is the vessel of evil, you don't turn over such an opinion the second someone says "Yeah, but we're making it nice".

Ok, i get what your saying, but I never implied Andrew would work for W&H.
As for unknown territory, sorry to sound negative but that's exactly what he did,went into a situation he knew nothing about, he only had Giles "he has gone over to the dark side tale", but not really knowing what to expect, nor had the commonsence to find out why he was at W&H before going over there, the only reason they were involved was because of Dana, and to be fair to Angel he was delibratly lead to believe the scoobies were on his side.That's why he was angry about the way Andrew let him know about the trust issue, as if Angel was a mind reader! and that's what i felt was Childish and Cowardly. Why Andrew couldn't of said to Angel's face we don't trust you is beyond me, and said Buffy didn't either, i think if that was so, Angel may have acted differently.This was the episode that made me lose respect for the scoobies and hate Andrew.

That's my take on it, resume......

 

[Voran]

The thing that irked me about Andrew in that episode, was that I felt some wierd double standard was being played. I mean Andrew was there for the whole Dark Willow thing, was pretty much a target for it as well. Are they suggesting that the last season of Buffy he was in was enough to make him forget about the whole "Sometimes our friends go bad, and we need to help them." Rather than the complete cold shoulder they gave Angel and Company? I mean even with Spike there, who the last Andrew saw, was doing the super hero thing, Andrew still didn't think it was worth the benefit of the doubt? The "Who do you think gave me the orders" thing was a little too snippy for my tastes too.
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Edit:
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Shoot, can't edit my post. What I was going to say, was Andrew's behavior seemed out of character, even a little hyprocritical, given the "Oh yeah, I completely KILLED MY BEST FRIEND under the urging of the BBEG disguised as a dead friend of mine. Oh and I knew he was the BBEG"

It just struck me as if the scoobie behavior towards Angel and company, making an arbitrary judgement against them without yknow, even talking directly with them, and defying the fact that like half the scoobie squad was responsible for some nasty bad stuff at some point.

 

[Tranquillity]

I really liked Andrew's appearance in this episode. I don't find it odd that Buffy and co. would not trust Angel. He is afterall, the boss at W&H, aka Evil Incorporated and as far as outsiders ( and indeed their clients) are concerned things are very much business as usual at the evil empire dispite Angel being in charge. He has told no one the reason why they are at W&H so he gives Buffy and Giles no reason to trust him. For me the interesting aspect of this episode is the contrast between the two 'brother' relationships we are shown. Angel and little brother Spike contrasts amazingly with Spike and little brother Andrew. Angel and Spike's relationship is shown as violent, malicious and unhelpful while Spike's and Andrew's is gentle, trusting, and helpful. It is interesting that it is in the scenes with Andrew that we see one of the few appearances of 'Sunnydale, season 7 Spike' and it becomes obvious (if it wasn't already) that Spike's demeanour in LA is a result of his less than ideal relationship with Angel.

 

[Angel's vision]

We don't know wether he did tell them or not, so it isn't cannon that Angel hadn't told em and it isn't cannon that he did. I wasn't sayign it wasn't odd, let alone a bad thing, my complaint was the "lets abandon our old friend, now he has gone to W&H, and to round it off, stab him in the back and give him the cold shoulder"
Treatment which is a little hypercritical concidering that Willow was helped after going dark, Spike was given the help by Buffy, so why not Angel?
Angel's theme was helping people no matter what they did, Helping them change when they need redemption, etc, and Damage let that theme fall by the wayside.

Apart form that, i agree on the relationship bit.

 

[Tranquillity]

I think its a pretty safe bet that Angel didn't tell them about altering everyone's memories in order to give connor a real 'family' - afterall, nobody has any memories of connor so why would he risk exposure of his big secret by telling buffy and Giles? But i agree it does seem to be a little hypocritical that buffy wouldn't give him the benifit of the doubt considering her history with giving those who go evil second chances. After reading the comic though, the lack of trust may explained by the fact that she's....

******************SPOILER********************************************************************************************










considered a terrorist by the government and it is more about protecting herself and her slayer crew.

 

[Immortal_Slayer]

Andrew was so cool in Angel he made me laugh when he was actin all tough and then squealed at a dead guy :hihi: and he looks all grown up in his suit and aww sweet :nibble6: <--- i realise has nothing to do with the post i just think the picture is cute

 

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

Spirit_Of_Fred agrees: you can use spoiler tags, which will hide the spoiler from those whose dont want to see it, like this: Spoiler - Highlight to view:yourpost. 🙂

ok, yeah, i screwed that up :blush:. its like this, without the star:

[*spoiler]yourpost[/spoiler]

(sorry to be off topic. continue talking about andrew 🙂)

 

[Voran]

It's possible that Andrew 'developed' to the point we saw during his appearance in Angel.

Its hard to say how much is a real development and how much is a representation of how he's "wrapped" himself into his role (real or imagined).

Lets take his 2 appearances.

1st with Psycho-Slayer. Its entirely possible that he was NOT the team leader during the trip to LA. He could have been sent on the mission, and told he was in charge by Buffy or Xander or whoever, but in reality one of the off-screen Next Gen Slayers was given the responsibility. To develop leadership qualities given his origins does seem a little out of character. His ability to stand up to Angel and Company is entirely consistent with his previous behavior when you note he's done it before when he thinks he's got 'protection', in this case, a pack of Slayers would make him definately feel secure, especially if he believes he is in 'control/leadership' of the pack.

2nd in Italy. 007-Andrew, or Andrew the playah, don't seem to be likely changes. In context of the 8th season comics coming out, (I haven't read them yet), if the whole "Buffy with Immortal dude" thing was a joke developed by Andrew, I also find it likely the two girls he hooks up with when Angel/Spike visit are activated Slayers, possibly from the region, thus (ok this might be a stereotype) more up to date with fashion/etc.


It's possible for a character to change, but even Wesley's change was something of a logical progression based on a few years of experience. For Wesley that episode in season 4 where they all lose their memories and fake-cordelia acts like she's in highschool, Angel acts like he's Liam, Wesley acts more like the version we first saw in Buffy. That highlighted just how much he's developed over the years. Its probably more appropriate to attribute Andrew's 'change' to roleplaying. He has NOT had the years of trial and experience that say Xander has had, and even the experience of Season 7 wasn't enough to switch him over from comic-relief backup dude to 007.

What I don't understand though is why Andrew would think its funny to punk Angel and Spike in that way, and NOT TELL THEM afterwards. I mean punking someone is marginally acceptable when you break everyone in on the joke afterwards, leaving the targets to assume things are all true, thats just being a dick.

 

[alexa]

I loved Andrew in Angel, as well as Buffy. Although yeah I don't get why everyone on Buffy's team would think the worst of Angel and Spike (not that she knew Spike was alive I guess), and lie to them and not help them when someone on their crew dies. I suppose they couldn't get them for the episode(s), but still.

 

[Mandy333]

I think Andrew grew up and changed,but I still think he's still as silly as ever which I like.

 

[XavierZane]

I think both of Andrew's Season 5 appearances are fictive to some degree. In Damage, using his clownish image to disarm Angel and his gang so he could double-cross them. (I also think he was gathering intel about the gang's behavior and purpose in joining WR&H). In TGiQ he was, at the very least, furthering the company line about Buffy being in Rome. Though...

I have a personal theory that the true purpose behind all the wacky shenanigans of TGiQ was part of an ongoing operation against The Immortal. I think Spike and Angel were used to distract the Immortal for the night (with the faux!Buffy providing a secondary distraction) so that Andrew's team could infiltrate The Immortal's home or operation.

But, regardless if that's true or not, I think that Andrew had planned on letting Spike and Angel in on the joke when he first set the seeds of it on Damaged, but that by the time TGiQ rolled around he was pissed off. There's no one in the Whedonverse who's a bigger supporter of Spuffy than Andrew, and having Spike (and Angel, but Andrew doesn't really know or care about him) show up all "I love Buffy and must save her...from this other guy!" so many months after he'd promised to tell Buffy he was back and hadn't, made Andrew decide to leave Spike hanging for a bit. Who knows if Andrew would have let Spike know the truth if they all hadn't gone rushing into a suicide mission a week later.

Regardless of whether or not you like him as a character, I think you've got to accept that he's grown somewhat. He's allowed his own slayer team, he's in charge of operations, he's trusted with perhaps the biggest secret of the New Watcher's Council, etc. He's the newest member of the Scooby Gang now, and not just a tag-along.