Angel action' vs Buffy's?

[Buff4ever]

Am I the only one who thinks the fights on Angel seemed way more REAL than the one's on Buffy? I recently re-watched both shows on Hulu, and I must say the choreography/stunt work from Angel looked slightly more believable (though they're all Hollywood Fu). Even the slayers; On Buffy, slayers seemed all bionic and the vampires/demons couldn't fight. However with Angel, it was more realistic; Dana & Faith especially.

It's a surprise there isn't already a thread about this. I'd love to hear everyone else's opinion.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

Oh, yeah, Angel's action was far better. They had better much better stunts, probably because they had Mike Massa on there...plus, they used way more wire work than Buffy did, and wire work always looks really cool. In fact, now that I think about it, Angel was just much better-looking in general...they had better cameras, better sets, better special effects, everything. It's kind of a shame that Buffy didn't have any of that, even though it's almost universally accepted as the better of the two shows.

 

[white avenger]

Part of that has to do with the original time slot each show occupied. "Buffy" was on at 8:00, which meant that it had to be more family suitable as regards to, primarily, action in general and violence and sex in particular. "Angel," airing just 1 hour later, had fewer restrictions and could depict a bit more action. Other than that, the two shows had basically the same writers and directors, stunt personnel, and fight choreographers.

 

[Silum]

I hope your not comparing S1 buffy with S5 angel...or any mismatch for that matter. Personally, i see 'equally' skilled combat in both buffy and angel through the seasons. How graphic or violent it gets depends on the episode or nature of the viewer but believability is pretty much matched. We often saw some pretty sick fight sequences on both shows.

After watching Buffy did you really not 'believe' that Buffy could fight demons? I dont think so. If so, how you could stand 144 episodes of it boggles the mind.

On Buffy, slayers seemed all bionic and the vampires/demons couldn't fight.

Seriously? What show were you watching? Or did you switch off after S1 and start watching angel?

 

[Buff4ever]

I hope your not comparing S1 buffy with S5 angel...or any mismatch for that matter. Personally, i see 'equally' skilled combat in both buffy and angel through the seasons. How graphic or violent it gets depends on the episode or nature of the viewer but believability is pretty much matched. We often saw some pretty sick fight sequences on both shows.

After watching Buffy did you really not 'believe' that Buffy could fight demons? I dont think so. If so, how you could stand 144 episodes of it boggles the mind.



Seriously? What show were you watching? Or did you switch off after S1 and start watching angel?

Well, Buffy could certainly fight demons. Seeing B kick some demon butt is one of the main reasons I watched the show. Whether her performance was believable or not, it was entertaining. However, that's not my point. I'm speaking of the stunt coordinations or action in the show in general which seemed less realistic than that of its offspring series. And that is Season 1-7 of Buffy compared to season 1-5 of Angel. I don't know how anyone who's witnessed both shows can think that the stunt work was equally matched in both. What are your standards? The choreography in Angel looked more intricate and thought out in my opinion. I also think some of the villains in Angel surpassed the villains of Buffy in terms of combat. Illyria & Glory are a great example. Both Gods or Godesses, and one difference; Glory could NOT fight. She basically stood purposeless throughout most of the battles in which Buffy effortlessly punned her with her eyes closed. Illyria bested Spike (with ease) and stood her ground against Hamilton (who probably would have given Caleb a big run for his money). When I said believable, I'm speaking on principles of realism. Because I know that if someone decides to do a cartwheel on my face, I won't just stand in their path like an idiot (e.g. Glory in Tough Love', monk in Intervention).

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

Part of that has to do with the original time slot each show occupied. "Buffy" was on at 8:00, which meant that it had to be more family suitable as regards to, primarily, action in general and violence and sex in particular. "Angel," airing just 1 hour later, had fewer restrictions and could depict a bit more action. Other than that, the two shows had basically the same writers and directors, stunt personnel, and fight choreographers.

Good point about the timing. I never took notice of that.

Mike Massa was the stunt choreographer for Angel. Jeff Pruit was the stunt choreographer for Buffy.
I guess this might account for the differences that I mentioned.

 

[Silum]

I'm speaking of the stunt coordinations or action in the show in general which seemed less realistic than that of its offspring series. And that is Season 1-7 of Buffy compared to season 1-5 of Angel.

Again i ask, you are comparing them like for like correct? S4 Buffy against Angel S1?

Illyria & Glory are a great example. Both Gods or Godesses, and one difference; Glory could NOT fight. She basically stood purposeless throughout most of the battles in which Buffy effortlessly punned her with her eyes closed.

3 years seperated these two forces. But, taking your point serisously... Glory was a hell God, why the heck would she do ANYTHING but stand there and mock Buffy. Seriously? Did you want a brutal equally matched fight? Buffy was a joke to glory, a little bug who she could fight with one hand..which she did.

Illyria bested Spike (with ease) and stood her ground against Hamilton (who probably would have given Caleb a big run for his money).

Illyria could have certainly given Caleb a run for his money...did you not catch the part where she was essentially unbeatable? ..."Holy crap...Illyria the hell dimension ruler is a great fighter" So what? You compare the unbeatable hell ruler to Buffy to show that fights were 'cooler' on Angel? I dont get it?

...As soon as I watched 'Anne' I realized just how awesome the fight sequences could get on Buffy, and Angel only piggy backed off its success. There were endless Buffy sequences that easily matched Angel's. See S7 vrs Angel S4 if you dont believe me, tons of awesome battle scenes against uBervamps, 'thunderdome', as well as matix-esk scenes against Caleb, not to mention Spikes street fighting moves against various opponents (including faith). Im sorry, but I really cant see where you even remotely coming from.

 

[white avenger]

Mike Massa was the stunt choreographer for Angel. Jeff Pruit was the stunt choreographer for Buffy.
I guess this might account for the differences that I mentioned.

The stunt coordinator doesn't usually plan the fights himself, unless it's a very low budget show. He has a specialist called a fight choreographer who usually has his own team of people who handle that, and I'm pretty sure that the same people did the fights on both shows.

 

[Buffed]

One thing I really noticed alot in BtVS were the stunt doubles. It was the most blatant in Becoming (part 2), but I noticed it quite a bit in many other episodes as well.

Imo, Angel fights look better, but I'm far more entertained by BtVS fights, just because its petite little Buffy kicking butt.

 

[Blaze]

I don't think the fights on either show was better, they were just different. Angel in my opinion was a much darker show, and needed stunt to match with it. Compared with the first couple of seasons on Buffy, it was a lot more light hearted and the show wasn't concentrating on only the demons, but also comedy, relation ships, highschool issue. But as we progress to s7, it is clear that the show as change and they did have better stunt, but I think that they had less of other things, such as comic releif. On Angel, we would sometimes go almost the whole season without any comedy nor romantism, it was a lot more centered on the demons and darker themes such as getting redeemed from the past and dealing with self issues , it therefore make sense that the fight scenes were different, not better, just seen from a different perspective I guess.

and as white avanger said, the timeslot makes a big difference. Angel was overall a lot more raw in the way it dealt with issues and it was a more adult show, therefore the fight scenes were different.

Buffy on the other hand was targeting younger viewers so what the show needed was a lot different than Angel

-Blaze-

 

[white avenger]

Another thing that has to be considered is the actors themselves. David is a fairly large, robust man, and whoever is his stunt double will be pretty much the same. Sarah, however, is a very small, slender woman, as would be any stunt double that she might have. Now, quite obviously, David or his stunt double are going to be able to do much more spectacular fight scenes, requiring considerably more sheer physical strength, than Sarah or her stunt double would ever be able to do.

 

[Willow-Tree]

I agree. Angel actually had the whole cast fighting, whereas in Buffy it was usually just her and maybe Spike. Angel also wasn't afraid to hurt the characters, where in Buffy, she usually just got thrown across the ground/floor once and then defeated the vampire/demon.

 

[MinwaraYana]

ANGEL's action is more professional and fun to watch because they used camera in the way they never used in Buffy, like slow-motion scene when Faith vs. The Beast and when Lilah shoots Angelus in the hotel, but when I think about violence, I think ANGEL's fight is too violent especially in season 5 🙁

I think I like Buffy's action more than Angel's because maybe, girls move faster and sometimes it's funny(Glory).

 

[Buff4ever]

Again i ask, you are comparing them like for like correct? S4 Buffy against Angel S1?



3 years seperated these two forces. But, taking your point serisously... Glory was a hell God, why the heck would she do ANYTHING but stand there and mock Buffy. Seriously? Did you want a brutal equally matched fight? Buffy was a joke to glory, a little bug who she could fight with one hand..which she did.



Illyria could have certainly given Caleb a run for his money...did you not catch the part where she was essentially unbeatable? ..."Holy crap...Illyria the hell dimension ruler is a great fighter" So what? You compare the unbeatable hell ruler to Buffy to show that fights were 'cooler' on Angel? I dont get it?

...As soon as I watched 'Anne' I realized just how awesome the fight sequences could get on Buffy, and Angel only piggy backed off its success. There were endless Buffy sequences that easily matched Angel's. See S7 vrs Angel S4 if you dont believe me, tons of awesome battle scenes against uBervamps, 'thunderdome', as well as matix-esk scenes against Caleb, not to mention Spikes street fighting moves against various opponents (including faith). Im sorry, but I really cant see where you even remotely coming from.

"Again i ask, you are comparing them like for like correct? S4 Buffy against Angel S1?"

I'm speaking on average; meaning all in all. But now that you mention it, yes I do believe that S1 Angel outdid S4 Buffy as far as where the action is concerned; excluding Buffy's brawl with Adam (which is among my favorite).

"Glory was a hell God, why the heck would she do ANYTHING but stand there and mock Buffy. Seriously? "

It's funny that you decided to highlight such an awesome point. Illyria was a God TO a God. I believe even a God to several Gods (which might even include Glory). What the hell do you think she thought of Angel/Spike? Two ensouled vampires killing their own kind was less than a joke to her, much less a joke than a vampire slayer. And she brutally outmached them simultaneously, did she not? So I don't see how Glory being a God would be any valid excuse for her not being able to fight/outmatch Buffy. Even Olaf (another, more stronger God) put on a slightly better show. Come better.


"You compare the unbeatable hell ruler to Buffy to show that fights were 'cooler' on Angel? I dont get it? "

Clearly you didn't comprehend my message. The comparison between Glory & Illyria was to validate ONE of my points which is that some of the villains on Buffy could not FIGHT. I'm fairly certain this was mentioned in my first message. And not that's it really important but you sound on the defensive. Trust me, it's really not that serious. Calm down.

"...As soon as I watched 'Anne' I realized just how awesome the fight sequences could get on Buffy, and Angel only piggy backed off its success. There were endless Buffy sequences that easily matched Angel's."

Well, this is your opinion. I can't change it, only listen to it; which is why I made the thread. Thanks for sharing! :winky:

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

I agree. Angel actually had the whole cast fighting, whereas in Buffy it was usually just her and maybe Spike. Angel also wasn't afraid to hurt the characters, where in Buffy, she usually just got thrown across the ground/floor once and then defeated the vampire/demon.

Yep. And now that you mention it; Xander & Cordelia were the only two normal scoobies (or at least originally normal) who learned how to fight from watching our heroes. Only we saw Cordelia kicking some serious demon ass in Season 4, whereasin Xander didn't progress as much, much less put up a decent fight against a vamp without the big use of a weapon. I hope he's more skilled by now in the comics.

---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

Another thing that has to be considered is the actors themselves. David is a fairly large, robust man, and whoever is his stunt double will be pretty much the same. Sarah, however, is a very small, slender woman, as would be any stunt double that she might have. Now, quite obviously, David or his stunt double are going to be able to do much more spectacular fight scenes, requiring considerably more sheer physical strength, than Sarah or her stunt double would ever be able to do.

Actually, Sarah's stunt double, Melissa Barker, was quite BUFF, if you know what I mean. Her physical differences from Sarah is what actually made it so obvious that we were watching a stunt double, which some fans have constantly complained about.

---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

The stunt coordinator doesn't usually plan the fights himself, unless it's a very low budget show. He has a specialist called a fight choreographer who usually has his own team of people who handle that, and I'm pretty sure that the same people did the fights on both shows.

I don't know too much about the "stunt coordinator not planning the fights". Nonetheless, if it was truly the same people on both shows, they certainly did a much better job on Angel.

 

[Silum]

I'm speaking on average; meaning all in all. But now that you mention it, yes I do believe that S1 Angel outdid S4 Buffy

lovely. Thats your opinion as you put it.

It's funny that you decided to highlight such an awesome point.

Thank you.

I don't see how Glory being a God would be any valid excuse for her not being able to fight/outmatch Buffy.

Again, i must ask what show are you watching? Glory kicked Buffy's perfectly formed exquisit ass on multiple occasions...is that not enough for you to form the opinion that Gods outmatch slayers?

"You compare the unbeatable hell ruler to Buffy to show that fights were 'cooler' on Angel? I dont get it? "

Clearly you didn't comprehend my message. The comparison between Glory & Illyria was to validate ONE of my points which is that some of the villains on Buffy could not FIGHT.

Ahh yes, but the trouble is your entire post rests on that one point. The idea that Buffys fight sequences are inferior to Angels relies on you not comparing like for like.

And not that's it really important but you sound on the defensive. Trust me, it's really not that serious. Calm down.

Perhaps you view people disagreeing with your precious opinion as defensive, but try to understand that others view things differently than you, in a civilized discussion resorting to 'calm down' as your defense comes off as pathetic.

 

[Buff4ever]

"Again, i must ask what show are you watching? Glory kicked Buffy's perfectly formed exquisit ass on multiple occasions...is that not enough for you to form the opinion that Gods outmatch slayers?"

Ahh yes, but the trouble is your entire post rests on that one point. The idea that Buffys fight sequences are inferior to Angels relies on you not comparing like for like.


Perhaps you view people disagreeing with your precious opinion as defensive, but try to understand that others view things differently than you, in a civilized discussion resorting to 'calm down' as your defense comes off as pathetic.

"Again, i must ask what show are you watching? Glory kicked Buffy's perfectly formed exquisit ass on multiple occasions...is that not enough for you to form the opinion that Gods outmatch slayers?"

Glory might have given Buffy a good jab or toss that flew her across the room, but kicked her ass across the room? Not so much. That's something different. And Slayers do not outmatch Gods. Gods (if they're strong enough and can fight) outmatch slayers, or anything below them. I recall writing something along the lines of Buffy effortlessly putting a number on Glory, but not totally outmatching (meaning defeating) her. :raisedeye. But if you insist on taking my words out of context, you'll never fully comprehend them.

"Ahh yes, but the trouble is your entire post rests on that one point. The idea that Buffys fight sequences are inferior to Angels relies on you not comparing like for like."

My entire post is based on several points.

1. Angel's fights were more realistic/intricate.
2. Some of the villians on Buffy could not fight.
Etc, etc and more was added.

Why compare "like for like" when I've already stated that I am speaking IN GENERAL, or on the testament of all the seasons of both shows? It's more simple and something I like to say, logical.


"Perhaps you view people disagreeing with your precious opinion as defensive, but try to understand that others view things differently than you, in a civilized discussion resorting to 'calm down' as your defense comes off as pathetic. "

In a civilized discussion, resorting to calm down is another way of saying that perphaps you are becoming too emotional. It's no defense, more so a tip of advice. Nevertheless, let's not become too off topic.

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

It's funny that you decided to highlight such an awesome point.

Thank you.

Thank you for helping me to refute it.

 

[Mumrik]

"Glory was a hell God, why the heck would she do ANYTHING but stand there and mock Buffy. Seriously? "

It's funny that you decided to highlight such an awesome point. Illyria was a God TO a God. I believe even a God to several Gods (which might even include Glory). What the hell do you think she thought of Angel/Spike? Two ensouled vampires killing their own kind was less than a joke to her, much less a joke than a vampire slayer. And she brutally outmached them simultaneously, did she not? So I don't see how Glory being a God would be any valid excuse for her not being able to fight/outmatch Buffy. Even Olaf (another, more stronger God) put on a slightly better show. Come better.

I doubt Glory wasn't able to fight Buffy it was more that she didn't WANT and/or NEED to. Why should she risk break a heel in a fight to a mere Vampire Slayer when she can effortlessly throw her around the room? It's not her lacking fighting skill, it's her personality.
Whereas Illyria is a completely different story. To put it in her words, "I wish to do more violence." She likes to fight.

You could have just picked a better example to prove your point than "Well, they're both Gods, they should have the same fighting skill." when they just have very different personalities.

 

[Revolver]

Obviously Buffy didn't see Glory this way. She was the only villian that had Buffy and her friends fleeing in terror.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

I doubt Glory wasn't able to fight Buffy it was more that she didn't WANT and/or NEED to. Why should she risk break a heel in a fight to a mere Vampire Slayer when she can effortlessly throw her around the room? It's not her lacking fighting skill, it's her personality.

It also has a lot to do with Buffy knowing where the Key is. Like she said at the end of Checkpoint, "She told me I'm a bug, I'm a flea, she could squash me in a second. But she didn't. [...] Why? Because she needs something from me." Illyria really has no use for Angel and the gang, so of course she's gonna just go ahead and beat them up.

 

[white avenger]

Obviously Buffy didn't see Glory this way. She was the only villian that had Buffy and her friends fleeing in terror.

Well, Buffy originally ran from the vampire gang leader at the beginning of Season 4, and if she didn't run from, she sure seemed awful scared of Luke in the first episode of Season 1.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I think Ats had better stunts. The stunt choreographer for Btvs in the first four seasons even admitted he was jealous of the stunts in Ats because their sets were bigger and allowed for much more epic and impressive wirework. And Joss mentioned how great the stunts were in Ats as well, in his speech for their 100th episode celebration party he ends it with “and it had awesome fights” and everyone burst out cheering.

I love the stunts in season two/season three/season four of Buffy but after that it got pretty bad IMO, I didn’t like the new stunt team from season 5 onwards. It became a lot slower, they used less wire work and it wasn’t as imaginative as the earlier seasons were. There were some good fight scenes don't get me wrong, but it wasn't as good as it used to be.

Ats only improved, every season it got better and by season three they really found their own style. The blend of slow motion, lots of wire work with big jumps and lot of people being thrown around, and even sound effects all made it a superior show when it came to stunt work.