Angel and Buffy: The Age Difference?

Of course they are for Bangel 🙂
Yeah, we need some more Bangel fans around here 😀
I know, I love to talk with people about this theme, my friends are so no interested!
 
mine too!!!initially they had no idea about the Buffyverse...i was lucky that my friend had the first season by chance but she didn't care about it a lot...whenever i find someone who cares about Buffy i feel genuine happiness!!!: king :
 
Kana said:
Seeing the whole Cordy/Connor thing freaked me out but more from Cordy's perspective rather than Connor. Angel was at least Cordy's suitor so sleeping with the son, is kind of icky.

As for Buffy and Angel. Well I addressed this briefly in my thread: Bangel: On the Bubble? - Buffy-Boards

My issue is not with the age difference but Buffy's age. If Buffy had been 14 and Angel fell in love with her, would that have been ok? Where do we draw the line? If we state that age 14 would have been too icky (think Spike falling in love with Dawn in Season 5/6) then we have accept that 15-16 is borderline.

Some say that Angel was emotionally young when he fell in love with Buffy isn't a great defense for Bangel:

1: But Angel was emotionally a teenager when they fell in love?
2: Ok that's alright then, carry on.

I'm not saying it's wrong because frankly I can't relate to a 200+ vampire falling in love with a school girl. Still love my Angel boos though.
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Great thread Kana! I think it brought up some great points. As said by palabravampiress:
The early days of Bangel are creepy, but that scene is *especially* creepy. It is entirely inappropriate for a grown man -- I don't care if he's 20 or 200 -- to pull up to a high school at closing time, slouch down in his seat, and check out one of the Freshmen students. That kind of behavior screams "sexual predator."

Joss mostly allowed us to view the Bangel relationship from Buffy's perspective, which is why we tend to see it as Big Romance. Even so, there were a lot of questionable moments like this one (I'm thinking here of his weird stalking behavior) that tipped us off to the fact that something just wasn't right. There was always an underlying insidiousness to the Bangel relationship, and I think Joss and co. morphed that beautifully into the Angelus arc of season 2. Part of what made Bangel a popular and interesting relationship was that it was wrong. To be together, Buffy and Angel had to overcome their natures (vampire vs. slayer), their ages, opposition from random demons galore as well as from family and friends, and, finally, a curse. I think Joss and co. did a great job of keeping us on the edge of our seats with Bangel... and one of the ways that he did that was to constantly sprinkle in little hints like this.
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I think that that's really the essence. It's just inappropriate. Even if Angel couldn't help "falling in love" with Buffy, as a grown man it was completely inappropriate to act on his feelings, IMO.

As said by Kana, Buffy was around 14- 15 when Angel first claimed he loved her. Is that an OK age? I don't really think so. She was a freshman, and he was over 200 years old. And the stalkerish behavior around her? If she's an adult and capable of taking care of herself, then he shouldn't feel the need to follow her around without her knowing.

A lot of people say that Buffy was wise beyond her years. That's good, but Angel claims that he loved her when he first saw her, and that was when she was a freshman who knew nothing of vampires or slaying. She was just a young, 14- 15 year old girl who was being closely watched by a man over 10 years her senior, if we forget that he was also a fairly dangerous vampire.

Others may say that Buffy was old enough to make choices for herself and she was old enough to attract men with her "womanly parts". 😀 But quite honestly, I know plenty of 10- 12 year olds who can do the same thing. Doesn't make it any more right. She was essentially a child, and whether he meant to or not, I believe that Angel took advantage of that.
 
Wishing Oceans said:
Great thread Kana! I think it brought up some great points. As said by palabravampiress:


I think that that's really the essence. It's just inappropriate. Even if Angel couldn't help "falling in love" with Buffy, as a grown man it was completely inappropriate to act on his feelings, IMO.

As said by Kana, Buffy was around 14- 15 when Angel first claimed he loved her. Is that an OK age? I don't really think so. She was a freshman, and he was over 200 years old. And the stalkerish behavior around her? If she's an adult and capable of taking care of herself, then he shouldn't feel the need to follow her around without her knowing.
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Couple of things to say about this, (no surprise huh? 😉) I think she was definitely 15 at this point (this isn't anything to do with my argument btw). The first time he saw her she was being called and she was fifteen when that happened.

I think you have to take into account the interpretation of him loving her. I might have said this in here already, I can't remember, but personally despite Angel saying himself he loved her from this point, I don't agree with him. I think he knew he COULD love her, he wanted to love her but that's because of my own beliefs about love. I don't think you can love someone without knowing them. I think he knew he wanted to protect her and help her and that was because he knew he was capable of loving her. Which was a pretty big thing for him, I guess. That's what I think he means by that comment.

And two, it's not like Angel just decided to start 'stalking' her. Whistler, encouraged Angel to move towards the path of redemption and it was him that suggested he do this through helping out the new slayer. Part of what he was encouraged to do was to keep tabs her on her and help her fight the forces of darkness instead of hanging out in alleys feeling sorry for himself.

Wishing Oceans said:
A lot of people say that Buffy was wise beyond her years. That's good, but Angel claims that he loved her when he first saw her, and that was when she was a freshman who knew nothing of vampires or slaying. She was just a young, 14- 15 year old girl who was being closely watched by a man over 10 years her senior, if we forget that he was also a fairly dangerous vampire.

Others may say that Buffy was old enough to make choices for herself and she was old enough to attract men with her "womanly parts". 😀 But quite honestly, I know plenty of 10- 12 year olds who can do the same thing. Doesn't make it any more right. She was essentially a child, and whether he meant to or not, I believe that Angel took advantage of that.
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I don't think he was a fairly dangerous vampire either, only to other vampires. The very fact that she didn't know anything of vampires is a reason why she should have had someone watching over her. And not just her watcher. Who knows what happened in the time between her being called and scared of a being slayer and having to move to Sunnydale. Maybe Angel has already saved her a few times unbeknownst to her? We'll never know.

I don't think she was essentially a child, either. She was a young adult. Would you consider yourself to be a child? I certainly didn't consider myself, or appreciate others telling me I was a child, at fifteen years old. And I really don't think that Angel took her advantage of her at all. Do you have any examples of why you think he did?

But, actually, I still think this debate is kind of strange considering that the actual age deal between is that he's like 240 years old, not 24. Which has been mentioned many times in this thread as to why the 'usual' ways of reacting to something like this don't necessarily apply here.

EDIT: Apologies, didn't realise how much I'd rambled! 😛
 
Flannen said:
Wishing Oceans said:
Great thread Kana! I think it brought up some great points. As said by palabravampiress:


I think that that's really the essence. It's just inappropriate. Even if Angel couldn't help "falling in love" with Buffy, as a grown man it was completely inappropriate to act on his feelings, IMO.

As said by Kana, Buffy was around 14- 15 when Angel first claimed he loved her. Is that an OK age? I don't really think so. She was a freshman, and he was over 200 years old. And the stalkerish behavior around her? If she's an adult and capable of taking care of herself, then he shouldn't feel the need to follow her around without her knowing.[/QUOTE}

Couple of things to say about this, (no surprise huh? 😉) I think she was definitely 15 at this point (this isn't anything to do with my argument btw). The first time he saw her she was being called and she was fifteen when that happened.

I think you have to take into account the interpretation of him loving her. I might have said this in here already, I can't remember, but personally despite Angel saying himself he loved her from this point, I don't agree with him. I think he knew he COULD love her, he wanted to love her but that's because of my own beliefs about love. I don't think you can love someone without knowing them. I think he knew he wanted to protect her and help her and that was because he knew he was capable of loving her. Which was a pretty big thing for him, I guess. That's what I think he means by that comment.

And two, it's not like Angel just decided to start 'stalking' her. Whistler, encouraged Angel to move towards the path of redemption and it was him that suggested he do this through helping out the new slayer. Part of what he was encouraged to do was to keep tabs her on her and help her fight the forces of darkness instead of hanging out in alleys feeling sorry for himself.



I don't think he was a fairly dangerous vampire either, only to other vampires. The very fact that she didn't know anything of vampires is a reason why she should have had someone watching over her. And not just her watcher. Who knows what happened in the time between her being called and scared of a being slayer and having to move to Sunnydale. Maybe Angel has already saved her a few times unbeknownst to her? We'll never know.

I don't think she was essentially a child, either. She was a young adult. Would you consider yourself to be a child? I certainly didn't consider myself, or appreciate others telling me I was a child, at fifteen years old. And I really don't think that Angel took her advantage of her at all. Do you have any examples of why you think he did?

But, actually, I still think this debate is kind of strange considering that the actual age deal between is that he's like 240 years old, not 24. Which has been mentioned many times in this thread as to why the 'usual' ways of reacting to something like this don't necessarily apply here.

EDIT: Apologies, didn't realise how much I'd rambled! 😛
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This is weird, because my mother and I just had this argument the other day - that is - at what age is a child no longer a child? I argue that a teenager is no longer a child, and what you're not an "adult" until you're past 18. but obviously, people are at different levels of maturity. There are exceptions.

So, if Buff was 15 then, in my opinion she wasn't a child, rather she was a teenager, an adolescent but still far younger than Angel was, obviously.
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Flannen
Flannen
Yeah, I agree about the teenager thing. I've been discussing it a lot recently too in my children's literature class.
I was just listening to this one croatian song by singer Tony Cetinski. And I remembered this thread because of it. It goes something like this:
When woman falls in love, she has eyes of a child,
and she accepts everything with no question,
but don't forget to tell her everyday that you love her.
When she falls asleep, tired in your arms,
let her know she is safe,
but don't forget to whisper to her
that you love her.
And that she means everything to you,
and that you can't without her, that you need her,
when she kisses you be gentle, tell her quietly,
that she is all your life.
When woman falls in love, when she gives you all her love,
all your world and sky is the limit,
but don't forget to tell her that you love her every day.

It sound better at croatian, but I think first two lines are perfect for this 😀
 
PrincessBuffy16 said:
I was just listening to this one croatian song by singer Tony Cetinski. And I remembered this thread because of it. It goes something like this:
When woman falls in love, she has eyes of a child,
and she accepts everything with no question,
but don't forget to tell her everyday that you love her.
When she falls asleep, tired in your arms,
let her know she is safe,
but don't forget to whisper to her
that you love her.
And that she means everything to you,
and that you can't without her, that you need her,
when she kisses you be gentle, tell her quietly,
that she is all your life.
When woman falls in love, when she gives you all her love,
all your world and sky is the limit,
but don't forget to tell her that you love her every day.

It sound better at croatian, but I think first two lines are perfect for this 😀
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I don't exactly think that that's a good thing... :/

"And two, it's not like Angel just decided to start 'stalking' her. Whistler, encouraged Angel to move towards the path of redemption and it was him that suggested he do this through helping out the new slayer. Part of what he was encouraged to do was to keep tabs her on her and help her fight the forces of darkness instead of hanging out in alleys feeling sorry for himself."

I definitely think that there's a difference between keeping tabs on someone and following them around against their knowledge. If Angel had told Buffy, or asked if she minded him hanging around in case she ever needed some back-up and she agreed to such then there wouldn't be a problem. But without her knowing? Makes it seem like there's a reason for him to hide from her in the shadows. And IMO it's leaning on the creepy side.
 
He watched her for a day. When she was in front of the school, while she was slaying her first vampire, and when she was crying? And what he saw? Her heart. Only that. And I think him watching her that day was one of the best things that happened in her life.
 
PrincessBuffy16 said:
He watched her for a day. When she was in front of the school, while she was slaying her first vampire, and when she was crying? And what he saw? Her heart. Only that. And I think him watching her that day was one of the best things that happened in her life.
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Personally, I think he saw a girl fighting a vampire... 😀 Sorry, I'm not into "love at first sight" and I don't think that he could've felt anything for her when he didn't know her, at all. He may have seen the way she acted when she fought and cried, but that just reminds me of watching a movie. Seeing someone live their life, but not really knowing them.
 
I think the 'reason' he wanted to hide, is the reason why he tried to no let anything happen between and why after 'Angel' he says he can't be around her. For one, he wouldn't have wanted her to know who he really was or she wouldn't have trusted him; had she have known he was a vampire. And as far she might have been concerned, him just appearing and going 'hey I know your deepest darkest secret and if you need me holla' just as creepy. I'm not condoning him going around and not telling her, but I don't see really see it as a betrayal of trust or anything as there wasn't any there yet and he had his reasons.

And secondly, like I said, I don't agree with love at first sight either, but I do absolutely think he wanted to help and protect her because he knew he could love her. And that awareness of knowing he had the capacity within himself to actually love someone, but also thinking he could never or should never be loved return, is another reason as to why he wasn't, initially, upfront about keeping tabs on her. Angel knew the difficulties that would follow if they did ever meet and he did actually begin to love her so he tried as hard as he could not to let that happen. Except he couldn't because love is a powerful emotion, and it took him a long time to realise that to really love her, he eventually had to leave her.
 
I don't belive love at first sight either. I don't think he fell in love with her for the first time he saw her. But I know he felt something. Then the rest we see in Buffy, he heard her talk, he was around her. He saw her and he just knew he has to try. And when he saw he can he fell in love. Belive me, I know.. been there, done that 😀 I know, I have boyfriend like that, for him girls were just one night stand.. but know we are together almost for a years, and month ago he said to me When I first saw you, I knew I'll love you. So I know, I know how Angel felt 😀
 
Flannen
Flannen
Aw, that's cute. I'm really happy for you! :D
^ aww that's so sweet and it is true!and i am really happy that your boyfriend changed his opinion about girls because he met you!and the song you posted here...sooooo sweet and romantic!


I really don't know if i believe in love at first sight...what's for sure is that Angel saw who Buffy really is...he saw her at school as the superficial,happy,carefree girl and then he saw her called as the Slayer...she took responsibility and she managed to defeat her first vampire...he saw her crying cause her whole life is changed...that was very strong...was it love?was it an attempt to protect her?anyway he felt warm inside for a woman for the first time in his life...and then he followed her around but not stalking her.Think about it...he was a vampire(even with a soul) and if Buffy knew that she would have probably killed him from their first meeting...their relationship evolved cause Angel was trying to protect her,to make her safe


and about the age thing again...it doesn't matter if she was 15 when Agel claimed he loved her...we don't see a man trying to make a girl fall for him,we don't see him press her...you never know in what age you will meet your one,true love
 
Eleftheria said:
^
I really don't know if i believe in love at first sight...what's for sure is that Angel saw who Buffy really is...he saw her at school as the superficial,happy,carefree girl and then he saw her called as the Slayer...she took responsibility and she managed to defeat her first vampire...he saw her crying cause her whole life is changed...that was very strong...was it love?was it an attempt to protect her?anyway he felt warm inside for a woman for the first time in his life...and then he followed her around but not stalking her.Think about it...he was a vampire(even with a soul) and if Buffy knew that she would have probably killed him from their first meeting...their relationship evolved cause Angel was trying to protect her,to make her safe
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I don't really agree that he saw her for who she was. While he was "watching" her, [sorry, I still think it's stalking 😀] he wasn't getting to know her. He hadn't said one word, and the way she acted definitely wasn't her normal routine. I just don't believe that you can love someone without knowing anything about them.

For example, at the park you could watch people playing around or whatever. Just because you were watching them it doesn't mean that you know anything about them.

As for Angel protecting her... I don't believe that it was his responsibility or his concern. If he wanted to help her out with her slaying, he could have asked her if she wanted back-up. It wasn't necessary for him to "follow" her around.


and about the age thing again...it doesn't matter if she was 15 when Agel claimed he loved her...we don't see a man trying to make a girl fall for him,we don't see him press her...you never know in what age you will meet your one,true love
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I think that that is really a matter of opinion. Some people believe it's wrong, some people don't care. I personally think that it's really inappropriate. And I don't believe in "one true loves". I think you can love a lot of people, just one is sort of ridiculous and very unlucky. The more you get to know someone, the more you'll love them. 😀
 
Wishing Oceans said:
As for Angel protecting her... I don't believe that it was his responsibility or his concern. If he wanted to help her out with her slaying, he could have asked her if she wanted back-up. It wasn't necessary for him to "follow" her around.
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I think it actually kind of was. Whistler was a demon who acted on behalf of the Powers That Be, in nature quite similar to Doyle. He went to find Angel, and Angel specifically. If the Powers That Be wanted Angel in particular to go and find Buffy and help her, it suggests this was his first step on the road to being a Champion. Angel was given that responsibility by Whistler/The Powers That Be. He didn't just decide to do it himself, he was chosen.
 
Flannen said:
I think it actually kind of was. Whistler was a demon who acted on behalf of the Powers That Be, in nature quite similar to Doyle. He went to find Angel, and Angel specifically. If the Powers That Be wanted Angel in particular to go and find Buffy and help her, it suggests this was his first step on the road to being a Champion. Angel was given that responsibility by Whistler/The Powers That Be. He didn't just decide to do it himself, he was chosen.
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Yes, but you CAN help someone and have them KNOW that you are helping. Spike has helped her before, and he never needed to lurk around in the shadows to do it.
 
My boyfriend is older then me. He is in college and I'm in High School. He can vote, I can't. He can drive, I can't. And what does that mean? That we don't love each other? People who are not in that situation can't judge it. Wishing Oceans, I hope someday you will be in relathionship, because I see you are a very mature for your age, and I think older guy could understand you better then some kid your age.
 
Wishing Oceans said:
Yes, but you CAN help someone and have them KNOW that you are helping. Spike has helped her before, and he never needed to lurk around in the shadows to do it.
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No he didn't. Because Spike was helping her at a time when Buffy was comfortable (largely) with her destiny as the Slayer. Buffy was aware by that point that vampires could actually be good, it wasn't black and white. But Buffy was not in that frame of mind at the time when Angel had to 'lurk in the shadows'.

When Buffy was first called there is no way that Angel could have been open about who he was and that he was helping. Buffy didn't want to accept her destiny as the Slayer, she wanted to pretend it hasn't happened so she wouldn't have welcomed someone she didn't know, making that destiny real to her.
 
PrincessBuffy16
PrincessBuffy16
[No message]
White avenger I don't have double standards. It's not like I have something against older woman and younger man, I just don't like Cordy and Connor together, because in my eyes the don't fit. I never said that he wouldn't fit with some other older woman.
 
Okay, here's one thing that hasn't been discussed , and I do think that it has a certain amount of bearing here. In defense of Angel (I can't believe that those four words actually came from me. I'm probably being haunted by the spirit of Miss K) Liam came from a time and a society where it was both perfectly acceptable and quite common for a man of 25, or even older, to marry a teenaged girl, even as young as 15 or 16, so he really saw nothing wrong with what they were doing as far as any age concern was involved. Sure, you can say "that was then and this was now," but Angel has never seemed to concern himself with the laws of mankind, preferring to do what he felt was "right," and to hell with laws, lawyers, and police. He depends on his upbringing as a mortal to shape a lot of his judgment. The "jail bait" issue almost certainly meant little or nothing to him, while the issue of being Buffy's first lover most certainly did. Deflowering virgins, preferably by force and as painfully as possible, was something that Angelus would do, therefore Angel was reluctant, which I find perfectly understandable.

As for Buffy, she saw this tall, dark, handsome, brooding, heroic man, tortured by a past filled with pain and violence, trying desperately to atone for his past. What inexperienced teenaged girl could resist such a package, especially after just escaping from a life threatening situation? It's straight out of Harlequin Romances.

Certainly, we can look at what happened dispassionately, viewing it with the morals, values, and laws of today as our guideline and see exactly what it was: statutory rape. Or, we can look at it from a purely romantic standpoint, and see a young girl, whether wisely or foolishly, falling under the charms of an older, wiser, or at least, more sexually experienced man, without concern or consideration of arbitrary laws.

Or, we can see it and ask ourselves who this big clumsy clod is, and why he's messin' around with Spike's girl (I just had to put that in)
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
So you think that low about them? How intersting.

Angel: If I can go a little while without getting shot or stabbed I'll be alright. Look, this can't...
Buffy: ...ever be anything. I know. For one thing, you're, like, two hundred and twenty-four years older than I am.
Angel: I just gotta... I gotta walk away from this.
Buffy: I know. Me, too. One of us has to go here.
Angel: I know.

They both new that he is older then her. But what can I say? That's love. It doesn't ask how old are you or is it right time for her to come in, she just does.
 
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