Angel and Buffy's Breakup

[CordelliasHeart]

have to admit I barely noticed the Age gap.


Oh on an idea of mine, "Angels soul being removed briefly, to reattach it more permanently" Think Angelus would have anything to do (while presumably surrounded by 5 people carrying Crosses, and likely wearing Solid steel chains) Other then shout expletives at the lot of them and tell them how much he wonts to murder them all.


Well theirs trying to prey on insecuritys Trying to deride Willow, or whoever the wizard or witch behind the spell happens to be, undermine their confidence...

Anything I missed?

 

[Yosso]

It might be noted that, in Liam's day, a 25 year old man marrying a girl 10 years or so his junior was quite common, even encouraged, assuming that the man had , by that time, achieved a certain degree of financial stability, if not prosperity, and the younger his new wife was, within reason, the better his chances of building up a large enough family to support him and his wife in their old age.

Buffy might have been jail bait in 20th Century California, but in Liam's time, she was of perfect marrying age.

I'm aware of this and you're right. But we're judging the Bangel age gap by 20th/21st century Western standards (apt as the show is set then), not by the standards two centuries ago. Hence, you could argue the age gap isn't inherently icky but our reaction to it is more a reflection of contemporary opinion than the Bangel relationship. But you could say that about more or less any topic, really.

 

[white avenger]

I'm aware of this and you're right. But we're judging the Bangel age gap by 20th/21st century Western standards (apt as the show is set then), not by the standards two centuries ago. Hence, you could argue the age gap isn't inherently icky but our reaction to it is more a reflection of contemporary opinion than the Bangel relationship. But you could say that about more or less any topic, really.

Granted, and I agree, Angel was too old for Buffy by 20th century standards just about anywhere in the Western world. I was just pointing out why Angel wasn't as resistant to the idea, even before he had any knowledge of the curse, as someone who was raised in our time, with our standards of what does and doesn't make a "proper" relationship.

 

[Yosso]

Granted, and I agree, Angel was too old for Buffy by 20th century standards just about anywhere in the Western world. I was just pointing out why Angel wasn't as resistant to the idea, even before he had any knowledge of the curse, as someone who was raised in our time, with our standards of what does and doesn't make a "proper" relationship.

That's a fair point 🙂 He not thinking it was wrong is probably due to his upbringing. But, Angel has adapted to modern times since he was Liam. He's certainly not the human he once was. Vampires seem to be able to adapt to contemporary fashions fairly quickly, regardless of age. Could Angel at least been aware that modern day Americans would think it a bit weird?

 

[Robb Stark]

That's a fair point 🙂 He not thinking it was wrong is probably due to his upbringing. But, Angel has adapted to modern times since he was Liam. He's certainly not the human he once was. Vampires seem to be able to adapt to contemporary fashions fairly quickly, regardless of age. Could Angel at least been aware that modern day Americans would think it a bit weird?

Again though, you could say the same with Spike. And it's far, FAR weirder with Anya.

 

[white avenger]

That's a fair point 🙂 He not thinking it was wrong is probably due to his upbringing. But, Angel has adapted to modern times since he was Liam. He's certainly not the human he once was. Vampires seem to be able to adapt to contemporary fashions fairly quickly, regardless of age. Could Angel at least been aware that modern day Americans would think it a bit weird?

I think that this parallels pretty accurately what Spike told Buffy in Season 7 in the abandoned house. Angel was following his blood, and at that particular moment, it wasn't flowing in the direction of his brain. If he hadn't lost his soul that night, it's a pretty fair bet that, the next morning, he would have realized what a mistake that kind of relationship with Buffy would be at that time, and would have told Buffy that. If what they had was, indeed, real, it would still be there in a few years when it at least wouldn't seem as though he were a child molester.

 

[fredthe3rd]

I appear to have sent this thread off in a completely different direction with one throwaway comment. Sorry Cordy's Heart.

If I'd known it would kick off such a debate I'd have put it in a new thread.

I think the spike relationship (though initially more shocking) is less uncomfortable because she is that little bit older. She's more mature and less sexually innocent.

What I found really uncomfortable to watch was the extended car kiss with Dawn. I wonder if female viewers were more comfortable watching it?

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------

I sound like such a prude.... : )

 

[Robb Stark]

I appear to have sent this thread off in a completely different direction with one throwaway comment. Sorry Cordy's Heart.

If I'd known it would kick off such a debate I'd have put it in a new thread.

I think the spike relationship (though initially more shocking) is less uncomfortable because she is that little bit older. She's more mature and less sexually innocent.

What I found really uncomfortable to watch was the extended car kiss with Dawn. I wonder if female viewers were more comfortable watching it?

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------

I sound like such a prude.... : )

I hear what you're saying but when you really think about it, it's what? A three year difference, at most? Considered in the scope of how old both Angel and Spike are, I don't think there's that much of a discernible difference. And considering that Buffy hooks up with Spike when she's in the throes of depression, desperately trying to feel anything, and sleeping with a guy who's smelling her clothes, is blindly obsessed with her and who she beats up (and gets beaten up by) during sex, the face value creepiness of Buffy and Spike trumps anything Buffy and Angel might have.

That said, I'm just saying that to make the point that I don't think there's anything wrong with Buffy/Angel. I don't think there's anything inherently creepy about either relationship.

 

[Yosso]

Again though, you could say the same with Spike. And it's far, FAR weirder with Anya.

I was comparing Liam's human age when he was probably turned by Darla (I'm guessing 25 or so) to Buffy at 16, so it's not the the same with Spike and Anya if you compare it by the same standards I think it's fair to compare it to. Like I mentioned in a previous post, Spike and Anya don't act nor look like they're centuries/a millienium old so I don't think it's fair to judge their ages against human ages. I think that's over-simplifying it.

I don't find Spike or Anya weird because Xander is 18/19 when he gets with Anya and Buffy 20 when she's with Spike. Buffy and Xander are past jailbait age, so it's ok. It's the fact Buffy is 16 that's the main issue for me.

I think that this parallels pretty accurately what Spike told Buffy in Season 7 in the abandoned house. Angel was following his blood, and at that particular moment, it wasn't flowing in the direction of his brain. If he hadn't lost his soul that night, it's a pretty fair bet that, the next morning, he would have realized what a mistake that kind of relationship with Buffy would be at that time, and would have told Buffy that. If what they had was, indeed, real, it would still be there in a few years when it at least wouldn't seem as though he were a child molester.

Interesting point. So you think Angel would have broken it off with Buffy if the one moment of true happiness loophole didn't apply. Then why enter into a relationship with Buffy? To me, that's just a big of a step as having sex with Buffy for the first time, perhaps more so. I'm not sure I agree really, yes Angel may have been following his other organ in "Surprise", especially in the heat of the moment but entering into a relationship is a conscious choice, not so much a spur of the moment deal like sex can be.

"Reptile Boy" pretty much sums up how Bangel got together:

Angel: You're sixteen years old. I'm two hundred and forty-one.

Buffy: I've done the math.

Angel: You don't know what you're doing, you don't know what you
want...

...

Angel: (bumps into her) Listen, if we date you and I both know one
thing's gonna lead to another.

Buffy: One thing already has led to another. You think it's a little
late to be reading me a warning label?

Angel: I'm just tryin' to protect you. This could get outta control.

Angel is clearly very cautious and careful not to think with his penis. The reason Angel makes the conscious, thought-out decision to ask her out at the end of the episode is because he realises she can take her of herself and doesn't need as much protecting as he initially thought - an odd lesson to learn suddenly in this episode, seeing as she defeated The Master an all. It's about his perception of Buffy's maturity and that for him, is a valid excuse to transgress the age-gap issue. I think that's a bigger decision factor in the whole relationship than the first time they have sex (if the curse didn't apply), so he wouldn't dump Buffy because again she'd demonstrate her maturity - something she has to keep on showing to Angel in order to make him forget he's dating a teenager.

Looking at Bangel from this perspective, with Buffy constantly having to prove her maturity to Angel (not necessarily always consciously) and Angel constantly trying to ignore Buffy's youth - it's a bit of a screwed up relationship. Buffy's the insistant schoolgirl while Angel is the significantly older guy who just can't help himself and turns a blind eye to the morality of the situation. Psychoanalysts could easily analyse Bangel through Freudian goggles - with Bangel being a possible example of the Elektra complex perhaps. So yes, the face value creepiness of Spuffy is more evident, but I think underneath it all Bangel is just as creepy, perhaps more so due to Buffy's innocence. Pretty messed up, in my opinion, when you dig deeper.

That said, I'm just saying that to make the point that I don't think there's anything wrong with Buffy/Angel. I don't think there's anything inherently creepy about either relationship.

 

[white avenger]

Interesting point. So you think Angel would have broken it off with Buffy if the one moment of true happiness loophole didn't apply. Then why enter into a relationship with Buffy? To me, that's just a big of a step as having sex with Buffy for the first time, perhaps more so. I'm not sure I agree really, yes Angel may have been following his other organ in "Surprise", especially in the heat of the moment but entering into a relationship is a conscious choice, not so much a spur of the moment deal like sex can be.

I'm not suggesting that Angel would have "broken it off" with Buffy. I'm saying that he would, or at least should, have recognized that sleeping with someone that young was wrong, and have made certain that it didn't happen again anytime soon.

 

[Yosso]

I'm not suggesting that Angel would have "broken it off" with Buffy. I'm saying that he would, or at least should, have recognized that sleeping with someone that young was wrong, and have made certain that it didn't happen again anytime soon.

If Angel were to think sleeping with someone that young was wrong, then being in a romantic relationship with a 16 year old is just as wrong surely? Yet he continues with the relationship. I still don't think he would have broken up with Buffy after sleeping with her if the curse wasn't an issue.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm not suggesting that Angel would have "broken it off" with Buffy. I'm saying that he would, or at least should, have recognized that sleeping with someone that young was wrong, and have made certain that it didn't happen again anytime soon.

Just as a point of clarity, Buffy was 17 when she slept with Angel. That's above the age of consent in many, many states and countries (not that I'm defending age-of-consent laws, which in many cases I think are totally out of whack).

[MENTION=12359]Yosso[/MENTION],

I'm not really how you can compare Angel's human age and then not do the same with Spike and Anya. Spike is at a comparable age to Liam when he gets turned, and Anya is a settled down housewife when she becomes a vengeance demon. It's not like they act like they're 19 or 20 either.

And I'm sorry, but I still think that the notion of a 250 year old vampire sleeping with a 17 year old being creepy but a 180 year old vampire sleeping with a 20 year old not being creepy is just completely ridiculous.

They're both fine. As has been said they retain the age similarities of somehow about the age of 26 or so. Saying that Angel is a creep because he slept with a 17 year old but Spike somehow isn't because he slept with a 20 year old, even though both him and Angel are centuries old, is just silly.

 

[Yosso]

Just as a point of clarity, Buffy was 17 when she slept with Angel. That's above the age of consent in many, many states and countries (not that I'm defending age-of-consent laws, which in many cases I think are totally out of whack).

[MENTION=12359]Yosso[/MENTION],

I'm not really how you can compare Angel's human age and then not do the same with Spike and Anya. Spike is at a comparable age to Liam when he gets turned, and Anya is a settled down housewife when she becomes a vengeance demon. It's not like they act like they're 19 or 20 either.

But Buffy isn't 16/17 when she starts sleeping with Spike; she's 20. She's far more sexually mature, experienced and less likely to be influenced and swayed by Spike's age. So it's less icky from that perspective. Obviously, the depression, her using Spike to feel etc. makes it more icky, but that has nothing to do with age.

Xander is 18/19 when he starts his relationship with Anya - to me (according to my values, which are debatable) you can do what you want when you turn 18. The difference in sexual maturity between 16 and 18 is quite vast.

Also, Anya got "stuck" in her persona as a high school student when she was sacked by D'Hoffryn, so biologically she's the same age as the Scoobies and despite her oddities, she does act quite similarly to the rest of the Scoobies.

 

[Robb Stark]

But Buffy isn't 16/17 when she starts sleeping with Spike; she's 20. She's far more sexually mature, experienced and less likely to be influenced and swayed by Spike's age. So it's less icky from that perspective. Obviously, the depression, her using Spike to feel etc. makes it more icky, but that has nothing to do with age.

Xander is 18/19 when he starts his relationship with Anya - to me (according to my values, which are debatable) you can do what you want when you turn 18. The difference in sexual maturity between 16 and 18 is quite vast.

Also, Anya got "stuck" in her persona as a high school student when she was sacked by D'Hoffryn, so biologically she's the same age as the Scoobies and despite her oddities, she does act quite similarly to the rest of the Scoobies.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, I just can't bring myself to agree with it. I suppose it's a personal-value thing, as you said. I'm very aware that I'm probably too close to it make a totally impartial and objective analysis. I'm 23 and my previous girlfriend was 16. I really, really care about her, and still do. It ended because of circumstances beyond either of our control, even though neither of us wanted it to. I didn't care about the age difference, and neither did she. Neither of us saw anything wrong with it. I'm at a comparable age to what Angel is initially portrayed to be in S1 or S2. Maybe a bit younger, but comparable. That's why it bugs me. But again, I know that's an opinion.

 

[Yosso]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, I just can't bring myself to agree with it. I suppose it's a personal-value thing, as you said. I'm very aware that I'm probably too close to it make a totally impartial and objective analysis. I'm 23 and my previous girlfriend was 16. I really, really care about her, and still do. It ended because of circumstances beyond either of our control, even though neither of us wanted it to. I didn't care about the age difference, and neither did she. Neither of us saw anything wrong with it. I'm at a comparable age to what Angel is initially portrayed to be in S1 or S2. Maybe a bit younger, but comparable. That's why it bugs me. But again, I know that's an opinion.

Ah I see, apologies if I hit a nerve or anything or my post was a bit personal, wasn't intentional 🙂 Yeah, it's all about what each individual believes really, so this debate is very subjective. I know a little about age difference, I tend to go for people in their late 20s and early 30s and I'm 21.

 

[marie21]

I'm not suggesting that Angel would have "broken it off" with Buffy. I'm saying that he would, or at least should, have recognized that sleeping with someone that young was wrong, and have made certain that it didn't happen again anytime soon.

is it the fact that she's barely 17 when she sleeps with him for her first time that bothers you or the fact that in terms of human age, he's 10 years older than her and she's still a minor?
I am under the impression that 17 is considered as the most common age for teenagers, to start having sex, especially in the USA but also in France.

 

[white avenger]

is it the fact that she's barely 17 when she sleeps with him for her first time that bothers you or the fact that in terms of human age, he's 10 years older than her and she's still a minor?

What bothers me about portraying something like this as somehow romantic is that it makes it easier for sexual predators to lure young inexperienced girls into a life of drug addiction, prostitution, and worse. Some folks here get upset about the way that Buffy's relationship with Spike, especially "Seeing Red" is portrayed. Seeing a 17 year old virgin having sex with an older man, and having it portrayed as somehow good and romantic, even if tragic, gets me upset in exactly that way.

 

[Robb Stark]

What bothers me about portraying something like this as somehow romantic is that it makes it easier for sexual predators to lure young inexperienced girls into a life of drug addiction, prostitution, and worse. Some folks here get upset about the way that Buffy's relationship with Spike, especially "Seeing Red" is portrayed. Seeing a 17 year old virgin having sex with an older man, and having it portrayed as somehow good and romantic, even if tragic, gets me upset in exactly that way.

Because we're friends, I'm trying hard to refrain from being overly confrontational. I don't think it's even remotely fair to label all guys who have a relationship with someone several years younger than them, a group that includes myself, as somehow immoral or "bad". I also don't think it's in any way fair to say that Buffy and Angel being together, two characters who are clearly in love with one another, is even loosely equitable a soulless Spike attempting to rape Buffy. That's not fair. Not even a little bit.

I've heard you describe in past posts that you think for the time it happened, Buffy/Angel was a happy, loving relationship that will always mean a tremendous amount to both of them, regardless of how it ends. That leaves me curious as to how you reconcile that (and please be aware, I was paraphrasing, not directly quoting) with what you just posted.

I've mentioned this in a few above posts in this thread, but it's worth restating. Buffy is 17 when she has sex with Angel. Xander is 18 when he sleeps with Anya, and she's well over a 1000 years old. She has a teenager's body, yes, but she also has the complete memory set of everything she's ever done over the centuries. Tell me that isn't different than Buffy/Angel. What's the difference? Because Anya is needy, and Angel isn't? Because Xander is a guy, and Buffy isn't? I don't understand that. Saying, in the scope of how old Spike and Angel are, can you seriously tell me that a 150+ year old vampire sleeping with a 17 year old Buffy is this horrible thing, but a 150+ year old vampire sleeping with a, maybe, 20 year old Buffy is then touching and romantic? Please.

Angel is clearly, obviously, not taking advantage of Buffy. He's in love with her, as she is with him. In S1 Angel is portrayed as being what? 25? Maybe? Spike is always portrayed as far older than that. I'm not saying a 25 year old and a 17 year old dating is conventional or common, it isn't, but far stranger relationships happen, and there was nothing wrong with Buffy and Angel's.

I find it perplexing that a 25 year old sleeping with a 17 year old, even when they're in love, is the gross out line for you, and not a soulless monster who sniffs Buffy's clothes when she's not home and who designs a sex robot to look identical to her. Strange.

 

[white avenger]

Because we're friends, I'm trying hard to refrain from being overly confrontational. I don't think it's even remotely fair to label all guys who have a relationship with someone several years younger than them, a group that includes myself, as somehow immoral or "bad". I also don't think it's in any way fair to say that Buffy and Angel being together, two characters who are clearly in love with one another, is even loosely equitable a soulless Spike attempting to rape Buffy. That's not fair. Not even a little bit.

I've heard you describe in past posts that you think for the time it happened, Buffy/Angel was a happy, loving relationship that will always mean a tremendous amount to both of them, regardless of how it ends. That leaves me curious as to how you reconcile that (and please be aware, I was paraphrasing, not directly quoting) with what you just posted.

I've mentioned this in a few above posts in this thread, but it's worth restating. Buffy is 17 when she has sex with Angel. Xander is 18 when he sleeps with Anya, and she's well over a 1000 years old. She has a teenager's body, yes, but she also has the complete memory set of everything she's ever done over the centuries. Tell me that isn't different than Buffy/Angel. What's the difference? Because Anya is needy, and Angel isn't? Because Xander is a guy, and Buffy isn't? I don't understand that. Saying, in the scope of how old Spike and Angel are, can you seriously tell me that a 150+ year old vampire sleeping with a 17 year old Buffy is this horrible thing, but a 150+ year old vampire sleeping with a, maybe, 20 year old Buffy is then touching and romantic? Please.

Angel is clearly, obviously, not taking advantage of Buffy. He's in love with her, as she is with him. In S1 Angel is portrayed as being what? 25? Maybe? Spike is always portrayed as far older than that. I'm not saying a 25 year old and a 17 year old dating is conventional or common, it isn't, but far stranger relationships happen, and there was nothing wrong with Buffy and Angel's.

I find it perplexing that a 25 year old sleeping with a 17 year old, even when they're in love, is the gross out line for you, and not a soulless monster who sniffs Buffy's clothes when she's not home and who designs a sex robot to look identical to her. Strange.

Without going into details that I am not at liberty to reveal, please just accept the fact that when I wrote the above, I had just received some very disturbing news that somewhat warped my normally more open minded views on this particular topic. I will, with your permission, simply drop out of the conversation until the time when I can be less critical of the situation.

 

[marie21]

Because we're friends, I'm trying hard to refrain from being overly confrontational. I don't think it's even remotely fair to label all guys who have a relationship with someone several years younger than them, a group that includes myself, as somehow immoral or "bad". I also don't think it's in any way fair to say that Buffy and Angel being together, two characters who are clearly in love with one another, is even loosely equitable a soulless Spike attempting to rape Buffy. That's not fair. Not even a little bit.

I totally agree.. You can't compare two different vampires and their behaviour towards Buffy. And Buffy wasn't all that innocent, in Surprise, we saw that she was aware of the intimate evolution in her relationship with Angel, she even told Willow earlier in the episode that she and Angel had reached a certain point of intimacy and that she was kind of ready to get to the next level, meaning "sleeping with Angel"... She also makes the first move when they are all wet and in his bedroom...I 've watched the episode so many times that I know every detail about it but he kinds of back off when she starts kissing him...it shows that he loves her a lot and respects her too..maybe you think White Avenger that he should have tried to talk her out of the whole "I love you, I almost lost you today, kiss me again and let's confort each other by sleeping together".
^^ But he's not only a vampire with a soul and some morality, he's also a guy.. what normal guy could resist to the temptation?

It's totally different with Buffy's relationship with Spike which is from my point of view wrong and maybe toxic (not sure it's the right word to use) because from the beginning of their affair, Spike knows that he has the power to hurt her and manipulate her because she's all depressed and less will power to resist him. And sorry, but he does manipulate her and plays on her weakness by trying to control her... He enjoys having the power over her! He keeps complaining that she's using him but to me, he has no reason to complain....I love season 6, I like Spike too "sometimes" as Buffy tells him at one point in an episode and I'm aware of his qualities but most of the time, I'm very angry at Spike for the way he manipulates her and tries to control her. In Seeing Red, he realizes that he can't control her with his words, so he resorts to the rape as a means to get his power back...

With Angel, there was complete trust.
That's not the case with Spike...
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]: sorry about the disturbing news...-( hope it will be OK soon...