Angel and the curse

[Anya2012]

Here's something I was a bit confused about.

Did Angel know about the curse before he slept with Buffy? If he did know about it, would he lose his soul? If he had known about it, then one would have thought he wouldn't sleep with Buffy?

 

[white avenger]

Angel didn't know anything about the "escape clause" in his curse before that. Otherwise, hopefully, he would have been responsible enough to have avoided any kind of situation in which it could ever have.happened.

 

[Mischlings]

How could he have known? The only person who seemed to know what it was before it happened was Jenny's uncle (Jenny might've, but I don't think that she did), and I don't think he was telling Angel. It seems that everyone else knows about it later because they piece together what Jenny knows (moment of true happiness) with what happens (Angel losing his soul).

Also, if Angel knew, he wouldn't have slept with Buffy. He probably would've done everything he could to prevent their relationship reaching that point.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

Curious Question, on a idea for a Fanfic? If Spike, Drusila, or "The Master" Had known do you think they'd have been willing to engineer such a moment, as difficult as it would have been for them to grasp it.

 

[itssmiletime]

The curse's purpose would be significantly diminished if Angel didn't know about the happiness loophole in his soul. Say it would be smarter for a gypsy to tell Angel alot of the details about the curse, because then, Angel would be more likely to feel guilt, and safer for them, as if Angel did loose his soul, he would hunt down the gypsies. It's no surprise that Angelus first seeked out and killed Jenny's uncle, and even if Jenny never attempted to restore Angel's soul, she would have eventually been killed.

However, I do understand the flip side, that if Angel knew, that he would be smarter enough to stay away from Buffy.

Whilst I know this is really not a helpful response, in the Innocence commentary, Whedon admits that the soul thing was incredibly tweaked and last minute to make sense. It's the most frustrating thing about the Angel character to me, as the gypsies would be smart enough and tactical about their 'vengeance' towards Angel.

I think only Jenny knew about the curse in Surprise. If she knew prior, she would have made a greater effort. That's why I'm never angry at Jenny: she was in an incredibly awful situation.

 

[Robb Stark]

The curse's purpose would be significantly diminished if Angel didn't know about the happiness loophole in his soul. Say it would be smarter for a gypsy to tell Angel alot of the details about the curse, because then, Angel would be more likely to feel guilt, and safer for them, as if Angel did loose his soul, he would hunt down the gypsies. It's no surprise that Angelus first seeked out and killed Jenny's uncle, and even if Jenny never attempted to restore Angel's soul, she would have eventually been killed.

However, I do understand the flip side, that if Angel knew, that he would be smarter enough to stay away from Buffy.

Whilst I know this is really not a helpful response, in the Innocence commentary, Whedon admits that the soul thing was incredibly tweaked and last minute to make sense. It's the most frustrating thing about the Angel character to me, as the gypsies would be smart enough and tactical about their 'vengeance' towards Angel.

I think only Jenny knew about the curse in Surprise. If she knew prior, she would have made a greater effort. That's why I'm never angry at Jenny: she was in an incredibly awful situation.

But it's like Jenny said herself to her uncle. "This is madness". And her uncle responds that it isn't justice his people are seeking against Angel, it isn't the "right thing". It's vengeance. Jenny makes it pretty clear that she wasn't informed about what would have happened if Angel experienced pure happiness. She's kind of a horrible person if she knew otherwise.

What's strange to me, when I think about it some more, is why the gypsies would send Jenny to break up Buffy and Angel and at the same time not ever have told Angel that the curse could end. I mean, if they never send Jenny it makes sense. Then they're just vindictive, as the uncle says.

 

[marie21]

oh no, he didn't know that if he had one moment of true happiness, he could go back to being evil Angelus! very few people knew about that part of the curse.

I think Jenny's uncle was the only one to know because in Surprise he told Jenny that Angel seemed to suffer less. She guessed that it was because Angel was romantically involved with Buffy and that Buffy was making him happy.
Jenny's uncle wanted her to do something about that without telling her exactly what would happen if Angel felt truly happy just for one moment. And she tried to separate Angel and Buffy.

Also, if Angel knew, he wouldn't have slept with Buffy. He probably would've done everything he could to prevent their relationship reaching that point.

yes, he would have put a stop to their relationship eventually, if he had known.

However, he was the one who hesitated a bit and tried to stop Buffy a little when she started kissing him passionnately. Did he unconsciously feel that it was kind of wrong to have their relationship reach a new level of intimacy and sleep with her or was he just a bit afraid of the intensity of their relationship at this point?

 

[Kean]

Angel knew nothing about the clause in the curse. If he had I don't believe he ever would have went to Sunnydale, not after seeing Buffy in L.A. and having that inspire him to get involved in the good fight. If he knew about the clause and then had this person make him feel something positive for the first time in a century, he would have been terrified. He wouldn't have risked it and he would have crawled back into the hole he had plunged himself into in NYC.

The only way the clause could make any kind of sense is if Angel did know because he would have ensured his misery for all of eternity as a means of penance and safety. The fact that the Jenny's family never tell him about it is baffling, why risk the demon emerging again? Why risk his vengeance?

Sidenote: The show really does do the Roma people an injustice with they way they portray them.

 

[white avenger]

This really has nothing whatsoever to do with the question, just an observation, but something about the curse that always seemed strange to me is that, wracked with all that guilt and pain, and with basically nothing but an eternity of suffering ahead, Angel didn't take a short walk in the sunlight almost as soon as the curse was first cast. Then, after coming to Sunnydale, falling in love with Buffy, and for the first time actually having a chance to atone in at least a small way for all of the pain and death that Angelus had called, he let the First Evil actually talk him into doing that very thing

 

[Kean]

This really has nothing whatsoever to do with the question, just an observation, but something about the curse that always seemed strange to me is that, wracked with all that guilt and pain, and with basically nothing but an eternity of suffering ahead, Angel didn't take a short walk in the sunlight almost as soon as the curse was first cast. Then, after coming to Sunnydale, falling in love with Buffy, and for the first time actually having a chance to atone in at least a small way for all of the pain and death that Angelus had called, he let the First Evil actually talk him into doing that very thing

I like to think that Angel believed, even subconsciously, that there was something more for him. A purpose beyond rotting away in guilt and misery.

First off, Angel didn't "let" The First talk him into anything. Dying was actually not what The First wanted; their plan was for Angel to sleep with Buffy again and lose his soul so Angelus would kill her. And second of all, at this time we are talking about an Angel just back from Hell, Buffy had told him they couldn't see each other anymore in the previous episode. If indeed he felt a deeper purpose for himself before Sunnydale, what happened with losing his soul and Angelus regaining control would have convinced him he truly was just a monster. Whatever shred of hope he may have had before was gone at this stage, he saw himself as nothing but weak, worthless and ultimately dangerous. The First was in his ear reinforcing every single one of those thoughts. To be quite honest I find it incredible that in such a fragile state of mind he was able to defy The First's wishes and make his own choice on how to end the pain and anguish. Killing himself at this point made a sense that it never really had before.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I never ever understood the logic in the "one moment of happiness" clause or why the gypsy's would put that in there.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

The gypsys meant the curse, well as a curse.

Jennys Uncle sums it up.

"It is not justice our people serve it is vengeance"

I agree the clause is STUPID, because the curse otherwise renders angel harmless... and im all for him being harmless.

 

[white avenger]

I like to think that Angel believed, even subconsciously, that there was something more for him. A purpose beyond rotting away in guilt and misery.

First off, Angel didn't "let" The First talk him into anything. Dying was actually not what The First wanted; their plan was for Angel to sleep with Buffy again and lose his soul so Angelus would kill her. And second of all, at this time we are talking about an Angel just back from Hell, Buffy had told him they couldn't see each other anymore in the previous episode. If indeed he felt a deeper purpose for himself before Sunnydale, what happened with losing his soul and Angelus regaining control would have convinced him he truly was just a monster. Whatever shred of hope he may have had before was gone at this stage, he saw himself as nothing but weak, worthless and ultimately dangerous. The First was in his ear reinforcing every single one of those thoughts. To be quite honest I find it incredible that in such a fragile state of mind he was able to defy The First's wishes and make his own choice on how to end the pain and anguish. Killing himself at this point made a sense that it never really had before.

My mistake. Poor wording. I meant that Angel thought about "suicide by sunrise" as a means of escape or as some kind of solution to what was happening, or as a way of keeping his soulless persona from harming Buffy or her friends. No, the First Evil didn't WANT Angel to dust himself. It's ultimate plan was probably similar to what it did with Spike in Season 7. Have the vampire for whom Buffy has strong feelings go on a killing spree (much easier with Angelus, obviously, than with a "triggered" Spike) forcing Buffy to kill him.

For whatever reason, Angel was willing to die at a point when he actually was finally contributing something useful, when the idea apparently never occurred to him when he first received nis soul.

 

[Kean]

For whatever reason, Angel was willing to die at a point when he actually was finally contributing something useful

That entire hilltop scene is about Angel realising that he could contribute something meaningful to fight. Just him. It is this scene that the concept of amends even enters his mind. Redemption didn't exist for Angel until that moment. What he had been doing in Sunnydale before that had all been about Buffy and helping her fight and, in the words of Whistler, not being "an useless rodent." Angel didn't view himself as contributing meaningfully, though I believe he was, he didn't view himself as a loss to the world. If anything he felt the world would be a better place in his absence.

when the idea apparently never occurred to him when he first received nis soul.

For all we know killing himself could be all Angel thought of for a hundred years.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think the escape clause is stupid also, but maybe they didn't have a choice to put it in. Curses usually have a escape clause (true loves first kiss, and so on).

Maybe they thought that by telling him, Angel would look for that moment of happiness to free himself, or if Angel knew he was keeping Angelus locked in him, he would feel a sense of good about himself, rather than suffering.

 

[Kana]

I'm of the opinion that the happiness clause was a metaphysical side effect of the clause and not something that the Gypsies could control. Enyos pointedly said they are not wizards and that they only play their part.

The curse was meant to make Angelus suffer. If he doesn't suffer the curse is null and void. Magic always has a price and consequences. This is no exception. The Gypsies' 'curse' is that they have the burden of making sure he suffers.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I'd have to say that as curses go, it was a joke.
Angelus kills a gypsy girl.
The gypsies give Angelus a soul, thereby making him Angel.
Then the gypsies instal the get out of jail free clause.
If Angel gets a happy, Angelus is returned. Yes, that would be a curse to Angel

But the item of the gypsies hatred was Angelus. So why put in a clause that halts their original spell and returns Angelus?

 

[white avenger]

If you think about it, Angel and his curse have been pretty much a work in progress from "Welcome To The Hellmouth" to the present. He didn't become a vampire until several episodes into the season. His soul wasn't an issue (or a curse) until soon thereafter. The "moment of true, or complete," happiness didn't turn up until Season 2, the Shanshu Prophecy wasn't come up with until Season 1 of his own show, and it wasn't until a couple of years after that that he learned that he was supposed to receive his mortality for helping Wolfram & Hart, not the Powers That Be, in the final apocalypse. Then, Twilight pretty much cancelled out or overruled the true happiness clause in Season 8. I'm waiting for the whole thing from Darla siring Angelus to Twilight recruiting Angel, to killing Giles, to be revealed as nothing but Liam's drunken dream after consuming a batch of bad poteen (if I've spelled that right) back in 18th Century Ireland.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

It may be that curses have side effects similar to drugs. Tetracycline was a great antibiotic until it was found that it mottled your teeth if you were a teenager - then they had to restrict its use.

In the same way, the curse may have appeared bulletproof until someone realized that there was a possibility of it being cancelled by a moment of true happiness. This realization may have happened after Angelus was cursed and this fact may have been lost along with the instructions for the curse. In the story, Jenny had to reclaim the curse from a lost document no one had translated before and the loophole probably disappeared along with the instructions.