Angel And The Shanshu

[white avenger]

Assuming that the Shanshu Prophecy still exists since magic has been more or less rebooted, do you think that Angel still even wants to become human again? My feeling was that the real reason that he ever wanted it in the first place was to start a normal life with Buffy, and, at least for now, she seems quite happy with Spike. Angel would probably be giving up immortality and the powers that make him the champion that he is, and I assume that he remains committed to his mission, so his ability to carry on would be at the least limited.

Would he give up all that, just on the forlorn hope that Buffy will one day come back to him? (Maybe she would, maybe she wouldn't, but it's not by any means a certainty, either way) To me, that would make him as pathetic as Spike ever was in Season 5.

 

[crazysoulless]

Spike was his own level of pathetic in s5. Sex spying sweater sniffing panty stealing shrine building sexbot commissioning sire threatening stakeout lying cigarette littering house burglaring sex roleplay having freak.

I agree while Angel wants to be forgiven and it being a higher power that does makes it more real for him, the reason he wants to Shanshu is Buffy. He needed to know his happiness wasn't going to hurt her. It's why he wore the claddagh in Judgement. He found out about the Shanshu not long after telling Buffy he hasn't moved on.

Comics Buffy has not been told by a single person that it is okay to be with Angel. In fact several people (Xander, Kennedy, Spike) blamed her for it. She thinks choosing Angel led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands possibly millions (when dozens of portals open and scores of Old Ones return the toll had to be huge) and Giles' death and it's why she destroyed the Seed which led to suicides and zompires and Buffy still being blamed for everything. There is just so much guilt even though she didn't know about the Twilight prophecy and couldn't have known having sex could cause that kind of thing.

Comics Buffy was mostly in character until s10 & 11 and now she is 70% in character. Suddenly she says she activated the Potentials so she wouldn't be alone when we saw how stressed she was trying to teach the Potentials to protect themselves with human abilities. Suddenly she is learning about "new normal" and accepting being the Slayer when she already did that years before the tv series ended. Suddenly she thinks Spike wasn't so bad without a soul even though at first in s7 refused to help him after the soul reveal because of how much he hurt her when soulless and went tough love with him until the speech in Never Leave Me which most anti Spuffies don't acknowledge.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

We already know the answer to this. Angel gave up his humanity in IWRY.

Also, the Shanshu prophecy will only be complete once Angel has fulfilled his purpose, by which time he will presumably no longer need his super powers.

 

[crazysoulless]

We already know the answer to this. Angel gave up his humanity in IWRY.

Also, the Shanshu prophecy will only be complete once Angel has fulfilled his purpose, by which time he will presumably no longer need his super powers.

Except he did it at a time when he felt he hadn't earned the right to be happy and when he was still afraid of being the cause of Buffy's suffering or death.

Angel: It's not that I don't want you, Buffy. You know how much---I just think it's worth the wait to know that it's right. I need to make sure you won't get hurt again.

Angel: If things are going to work between me and Buffy, I have to be able to do this on my own. I can't keep risking her life every time some minion of Hell--just tell me how to do the spell.

By the later season comics, Buffy has died 3 times and is still standing. She's experienced in every way.

 

[thetopher]

After Twilight? No way in Hell would Angel consider 'getting away' with becoming human (nor does he deserve it in my view).
As of A&F S9 Angel expects a stake in the chest eventually and was quite frankly amazed that Faith wanted to stand by him in the aftermath of what happened.

I'm not sure if that opinion has changed during Angel S11.

 

[Mylie]

I think he still wants to become human but I can't ever see him accepting that reward. I think it's something he wants but doesn't think he deserves. So I'm not sure it would make him happy but it's just a feeling I have.

By the later season comics, Buffy has died 3 times and is still standing. She's experienced in every way.

I've seen you say this before and meant to ask but forgot and now I don't want to miss my shot again, but... When was the third time?

I count prophecy girl and the gift, did I miss one?

 

[crazysoulless]

I think he still wants to become human but I can't ever see him accepting that reward. I think it's something he wants but doesn't think he deserves. So I'm not sure it would make him happy but it's just a feeling I have.



I've seen you say this before and meant to ask but forgot and now I don't want to miss my shot again, but... When was the third time?

I count prophecy girl and the gift, did I miss one?

It happened in the comics. S8. Retreat.

Buffy's deaths

Age 16: The Master psychically paralyzed her, bit her, drank her blood until she was ready to faint, then let her body drop into a pond to drown.
Age 20: She was engulfed in mystical energy powerful enough to dissolve dimensional walls. According to BtVS UPN commercials, her central nervous system was fried and her organs liquefied.
Age 24: A Tibetan goddess the size of a giant picked her up and then let her fall to her death. She was human at the time so it broke probably most bones in her body.

She was resuscitated and then resurrected and then kinda regenerated.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

We already know the answer to this. Angel gave up his humanity in IWRY.

No, we don't. Because the shanshu prophecy is not just about being human but about Angel being rewarded his humanity after fulfilling his destiny. The humanity granted to him in IWRY was a mistake, it was merely the Mohra demon accidently making him human. To Angel, the shanshu, at one point, represented the forgiveness, redemption. It wasn't just about being human it was about finally getting to the end of his mission to make amends.

But as of s9 Angel doesn't really believe he deserves it (although you could argue I don't think he ever felt he deserved it...). But if he was granted his humanity I think he would treasure the gift. I think he actively stopped seeking this "reward" long before the comics.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@Mrs Gordo As I understand it, the opening post can be summed up as asking: Would Angel give up his powers that allows him to continue his quest prematurely in order to get back with Buff? I believe IWRY proves that he wouldn't.

And as I write in the next part of my post, Angel will only become human once his purpose in the final apocalypse is fulfilled, by which time he should be able to freely retire from championing. Buffy and the rest of the known characters may be dead by this point.

I like to imagine the Buffyverse-saga ending with Angel - recently reborn as human - and Spike - the last vampire in existence - sharing a final drink and realising all their loved once are long gone 😛

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I guess the confusion I have is that the shanshu implies that his quest is completed, so unlike IWRY in which his destiny/quest/mission was not done the shanshu would represent he arrived (which kinda goes against the entire grain of AtS and doing good for the sake of doing good and no reward). And as I understand it the OP was about the shanshu not some deux ex granting him humanity. So if you say that IWRY is representative of how he feels about the shanshu, it doesn't equate to me. But if we are talking about whether Angel would agree to become human (outside of a shanshu prophecy being granted at a time at which he fulfilled some destiny) to be with Buffy, then I would agree with your answer - it would be no as we saw in IWRY.

 

[RomanticSoul]

How many more threads are you going to open with the same title and the same context? If you wanted more discussion on it you could have just revived your previous thread. That is still open and active btw.. It's not hard to see since it's on page 1 of the DB forum and one of the most recent topics.

Angel And The Shanshu

 

[Mr Trick]

I think there will always be some interest from Angel in becoming a human. I think his interactions with the Scoobies and his crew on would be make him see the value more and to want to share some of what they have. But I think at this point he would be quite content with it not happening.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Angel becomes human...then gets run over by a truck. The End.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Whether or not he had earned it, I think Angel would have a very hard time without his powers - and after centuries as a super powered being, he would not feel like a man, if he were suddenly weak. That goes double if his girl can stop an SUV with her body (Anne) and walk away.

Now if he became able to walk in sunlight and maybe father a child, he might enjoy that!

BTW, his staying a vampire hasn't kept her alive. She keeps on dying amd coming back, and more often surviving -- mostly without input from him, since he took that day back.

IMO, he took the day back, b/c he had one rough day human. Joyful lovemaking with Buffy simply wasn't enough to overcome his terror of being weak and needing to be rescued. Like Riley, I don't think he could deal with being rescued by his woman. Buffy could have kicked mora demon butt w/o his (physical) help.

He is poorly suited to be fray adjacent _ even in a Giles-like (badass human) way.

I personally think the shanshu is a poor 'gift' for anyone. Taking anyone's century old powers would rapidly come to feel like a curse.

Just give him motile semen and daylight!

 

[RomanticSoul]

IMO, he took the day back, b/c he had one rough day human. Joyful lovemaking with Buffy simply wasn't enough to overcome his terror of being weak and needing to be rescued. Like Riley, I don't think he could deal with being rescued by his woman. Buffy could have kicked mora demon butt w/o his (physical) help.

Except in the canon of the episode it was plainly explained why he made the choice of world/people > Buffy. Sure Buffy was a small part of his decision. But you'd have to have missed the rest of what was said. What's with this fanon stuff?

 

[thetopher]

BTW, his staying a vampire hasn't kept her alive. She keeps on dying amd coming back, and more often surviving -- mostly without input from him, since he took that day back.

Yeah, what was Angel even thinking believing the representatives of the PtB who called themselves the Oracles?
Secretly he really just wanted to be a super-dude and couldn't handle it, yep.

 

[EarthLogic]

Whether or not he had earned it, I think Angel would have a very hard time without his powers - and after centuries as a super powered being, he would not feel like a man, if he were suddenly weak. That goes double if his girl can stop an SUV with her body (Anne) and walk away.

Now if he became able to walk in sunlight and maybe father a child, he might enjoy that!

BTW, his staying a vampire hasn't kept her alive. She keeps on dying amd coming back, and more often surviving -- mostly without input from him, since he took that day back.

IMO, he took the day back, b/c he had one rough day human. Joyful lovemaking with Buffy simply wasn't enough to overcome his terror of being weak and needing to be rescued. Like Riley, I don't think he could deal with being rescued by his woman. Buffy could have kicked mora demon butt w/o his (physical) help.

He is poorly suited to be fray adjacent _ even in a Giles-like (badass human) way.

I personally think the shanshu is a poor 'gift' for anyone. Taking anyone's century old powers would rapidly come to feel like a curse.

Just give him motile semen and daylight!

This idea that Angel would somehow feel insecure about his weakness or emasculated as a human alongside superpowered Buffy is pure fanon. Even when he's a vampire Buffy's Slayer powers make her stronger than him - a fact he has openly recognised - and nowhere has he ever expressed insecurity about this. Buffy saved his damseled ass multiple times on BtVS and not once did he grumble about it, so to compare him to Riley is just ridiculous. I do believe Angel would struggle, at least initially, with his lack of powers as a human, but it would be for the same reasons that Buffy expressed in 'Helpless' - knowing what evil is out there and being unable to fight it like he could before, because as a mortal it's riskier. I think he would also feel guilty if Buffy were to take extra risks with her own life in order to protect him - a fear which he does express in IWRY. However we have seen with Gunn and Wes that humans can play a part in the fight and I think with regular training a newly-human Angel could work his way up to a decent level of strength and skill - possibly even better given his size and build. The psychological battle would probably be more difficult - he would have to work on letting go of his anxieties about other people taking risks for him and his frustration at not being able to contribute as much as he once did, but it's doable if he has solid relationships with those around him built on trust and communication.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I think Buffy would have iissues losing her powers too - remember Helpless? She did work around it, but she hated it. Aside from my personal reading of IWRY, (NO FANON, just how it looked to me) I think the shanshu is a booby prize.

People don"t do well when the lose power, and we only have to look at the difficulties many former jocks have. Oh, and most people and aging. Weakness is almost never a gift. Unless you are the Hulk or Beast and can't change back enough to enjoy human scale life.

Once you get used to your power and agency, losing it always sucks. Most of us would love super strengh, semi-indestructibility, eternal youth and rapid healing. Why do you think so many try (often risky) 'enhancements'? If vampires were real, a certain portion of the planet would volunteer to get turned.

 

[EarthLogic]

think Buffy would have iissues losing her powers too - remember Helpless? She did work around it, but she hated it. Aside from my personal reading of IWRY, (NO FANON, just how it looked to me) I think the shanshu is a booby prize.

But that's exactly my point - his issues with his weakness and loss of power would be like Buffy's were in Helpless, i.e. struggling to adjust to the inability to fight evil on the level he is used to doing. I don't think Angel would miss eternal youth though; he's spent years looking young yet not being able to see his reflection and not being able to enjoy life as part of humanity so I think he would welcome the chance to age and change naturally, especially if he were to age alongside people he loved.

What I take issue with is your implication that Angel would feel insecure in his weakness in comparison to Buffy's strength like Riley did, or that his problem in IWRY was fearing weakness and needing to be 'rescued by his woman' ...😵. That is simply not supported by what we see in either show. Angel has been near death many times and has had no problem being rescued by Buffy - the physical power imbalance between them from him turning human wouldn't change that.

I do agree with you that the Shanshu is a bit of a crap shoot. As with all prophecies it's vague and can be interpreted a myriad ways, of which even the best outcomes could have unintended consequences. This is why I've always belived that Angel's post-NFA journey would be in part about putting the Shanshu behind him for all intents and purposes, and getting back to basics. That is what S5 seemed to lay the groundwork for and what the end of the AtF comics seemed to gesture towards. Of course then S8 destroyed all of that 😡

 

[RomanticSoul]

*Buffy beats the crap out of Caleb*
Angel: God, I miss watching this.

Yeah, this sounds like a guy who has issues with a girl kicking ass. And more ass than him due to being stronger because of slayer powers. And who wants to protect Buffy because she is so weak.

Angel: Ah, it's one of those things you have to finish yourself. *steps away to let the girl handle it*