Angel ep by ep; A HOLE IN THE WORLD-byebye Fred...

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saturn5

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A HOLE IN THE WORLD

The Good;
Some very worthy stuff here, lovely Spike/Angel and Fred/Wes stuff. Gunn starts to realise the price he's paid for his mind upgrade. Especially love the moment when Fred sings and Lorne reacts, reading her future.

The Bad;
The White Room scene seems very unnecessary

Best line; has to be;
Fred; "Wesley, why can't I stay?"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Considering what happened to Glenn Quinn the Burkles remarks about 'Junkie movie stars' are a little tasteless. Also Wes kneecapping the guy who just wanted his fax. Needless to say, hard to watch Fred suffer.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Cliches

Subverting the Hollywood cliche;
Fred isn't concerned by the sword sticking through Angel but wants the specimen on it

In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 18,

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 15
Wes: 8
Gunn; 8
Lorne; 6
Fred; 5
Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Fred passes out
Cordy: 15
Angel: 20
Wes: 9
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 4
Lorne; 8
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 7
Spike; 5

Kills; going to let Fred go out with a bang and give her a dozen demon babies from the nest. Also one for Wes and one for Spike. 4 of Drogyn's demon guards each for Spike and Angel.
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 48 vamps, 67 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies
Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine
Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite

Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang; Fred to Illyria
Cordy: 4
Angel: 12
Fred; 3
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1
Lorne; 1

Characters killed:
2265

Recurring characters killed; goodbye Fred, liked you but never loved you as I did say Willow. Still, sad to see you go.
12

Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,
Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 14
Wes; 2

Packing heat; literally as here we have Fred as Ripley (before Alien3 ruined the series) packing a flamethrower whilst Wes has his shotgun and a 45 later
Wes; 12
Doyle; 1
Angel; 4
Gunn; 3
Fred; 5

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Do Wes and Fred have sex? She implies he's never been there before, do they have sex? Maybe
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve
Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes
Groo; 1Cordy
Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky:
Fred hints she's had group sex with the varsity lacrosse team. She says she's joking but you know she was doing a lot of weed back then. Fred is in effect orally raped by the essence of Illyria which then gestates inside her, taking over her body (again, very like Aliens)

Captain Subtext;
Spike; "You think we should annoy other people?" Couple or what? Spike thinks James Bond's tux is poncey. Say that to his face? Angel doesn't know about Wes/Fred just as he didn't know about Fred/Gunn. Spike and Angel hold hands, hmmmm? They refer to St Petersberg where Anyanka and Halfyrek also hung out, wonder if it was at the same time?

Know the face, different character; 7

Parking garages;
9,

Guantanamo Bay;
Lorne hits Eve. Didn't see that coming just as Lindsey won't in NFA

Buffy characters on Angel; 17
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

What the fanficcers thought; .

Missing scenes;
According to the commentary this show was very long so plenty of scenes to be restored on a DVD extra

Questions and observations;
For my money the astronauts win, they've everything the cavemen have plus science and technology. Lots of Aliens imagery, Fred with a flamethrower, the critters at the beginning, even the 'cow-pat' emblem on the sarcophagus looks a bit like a facehugger curled up. Lovely Wes and Gunn moment over Fred, Gunn almost has you going for a bit. Knox is also very believable. Is Fred mesmerised by the sarcophagus crystal as Buffy was in Helpless? Spike and Angel have never flown in a plane before and seem nervous about it. Their bonding on the plane is lovely. They speak of returning to the UK as the mother country, obviously a long time since they've been home. Spike didn't like Les Mis, neither did I, rather see Wicked again. Like Dianne Warren though and I think secretly Gunn does too.
Marks out of 10; 8/10 good ep but hard to watch
 
Seriously one the saddest eps ever!! I can not watch it and not cry! Amy and Alexis, did the most incredible acting. I almost wish that they had the full 40 odd minutes, and no else was on it. Because they brought something, I had never seen them do before. It was sad, beautiful, poetic, and heart-breaking all in one!
 
I'm reading the comic of this. First off, I don't know why they adapted it into a comic. It doesn't transfer over so well. Secondly, I got to the part when they're trying to find Willow. Now, I understand Willow's the most awesomest witch they know but why wouldn't Wolfram and Hart have some awesome witches of their own? Hmm. Perhaps that would have been too time-consuming for the story? Maybe I'm being all nit-picky.
 
I watched this last night for the 2nd time. Knowing how it ended, it was SO much sadder. The first time through I figured they'd save Fred. This time I knew, and even though I think Ilyria is a great character, it was so sad to watch.
 
Does Anyone Know Where I Could Find A Clip Of Angel and Spike Argue Over Caveman and Astronauts? Ive Searched Youtube and Google And I Cant Find It
 
Just watched it... Really depressing, maybe the worst of all is that finally Fred and Wesley were hitting it off (at long last) but a little too late.

Some interesting facts by the way...

1)Wes reads "The little Princess" a children book about a girl that escaped her problems using her imagination (REALLY great touch).

2) Okay this is actually funny... Angel and Spike are fighting Uruk-Hai!!!!!!!!(at the least orcs) They have pretty much the same armor and swords.
 
Tome
Tome
Lol at the last part.
This episode gets me everytime. While Fred wasn't my favorite character, Wesley always has been my fave "Angel" character, and Alexis' and Amy's scenes together were so beautifully acted. The moment Fred sings "You are my sunshine" and Lorne reads her aura just in time to turn and catch her as she falls backward is amazing...
I was deeply touched by the scene where all the men of AI (with the exception of Knox, yuck) are gathered around her bed. I thought it was so sweet... They were kinda like her big brothers, trying their hardest to make it better. Awww...
If you're not touched by the scene where Fred dies in her bedroom, you have no heart, period. That scene was brilliantly acted!
 
I don't know. Amy Acker is an amazing performer but I never liked the transformation. In this episode I found a few of the actors to be really out of character especially with Wes shooting someone's kneecaps and Gunn killing someone in cold blood... The Host punching Eve? Is that his style? Must the characters regress to such callousness like that just so it'll fit with the not-too-subtle astronaut vs. caveman subtext in the script? Really well directed otherwise.
 
I don't know If Joss Whedon deliberately made them act out of character, but IF he did it was very well done...

The death of a loved one just changes the rules and so it is kind of...OK if they overreact...

It's NATURAL.
 
Jojo3000 said:
I don't know. Amy Acker is an amazing performer but I never liked the transformation. In this episode I found a few of the actors to be really out of character especially with Wes shooting someone's kneecaps and Gunn killing someone in cold blood... The Host punching Eve? Is that his style? Must the characters regress to such callousness like that just so it'll fit with the not-too-subtle astronaut vs. caveman subtext in the script? Really well directed otherwise.
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Actually those were great, just showed how much it hurt all of them. Love Lorne kicking some ass! 😀
 
Everything about this ep was fabulous, but I think I liked Lorne in the best. I think it's Eve that he's yelling at when he tells the story of Fred eating Chinese food and telling him that if people were green, they'd want to be his shade, or something like that. I thought that was really the most touching moment. We rarely get so much emotion from Lorne, and I thought it was beautiful.
 
This episode is one of my favorites from both series. I say this because it was heartbreaking and got to me so much. When watching the first time I was shocked that Fred died and I was like no! But watching it over it is still so sad.
The thing that gets me most is Fred and Wesley are finally together and then this happens it is so sad. I'm like aw poor Wesley and Fred. I thought everyone did a good job in this episode. Seeing Angel and Spike were great in this one their emotion. Like I said everyone was great but Fred and Wesley were amazing I would not have changed a thing.
I think Buffy and Angel get the best of emotions lol more than any other show.
 
"Wesley, why can't I stay?" I always cry, every single time I watch this ep. I always liked Fred, and to be honest, I always thought she suited Wesley better than Gunn anyway, and was so happy to see them together-and then...oh my, just heartbreaking. And to see how hurt they all are. Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker especially are great here-and Fred's death scene is so heart-rending. Plus, Lorne punching that jezebel Eve-who knew the green guy had it in him?? Love that little speech about the Chinese food, so sweet and sad all at once.
 
Lorne punching Eve in the face was my favorite moment of the episode, outside of the gutwrenching scene in Fred's room right before she dies.
 
I never expected it from Lorne, but let's face it, Eve kind of deserved it-and Fred's death scene was just heartbreaking, so sad.
 
sharona1981 said:
I never expected it from Lorne, but let's face it, Eve kind of deserved it-and Fred's death scene was just heartbreaking, so sad.
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Frankly, Lorne's actions appalled me. Just as his murder of Lindsey appalled me. I stopped thinking highly of him after that. As for Fred's death scene . . . it seemed like an exercise in pure torture for me. I found it unnecessarily long and over-the-top.



I always liked Fred, and to be honest, I always thought she suited Wesley better than Gunn anyway, and was so happy to see them together-and then...oh my, just heartbreaking.
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Thank God that romance ended with Fred's death. It seemed like a strange mixture of a high school romance and incest.
 
LMFAO @ Lorne punching Eve in the face. I love him so much 😀
Gorgeous episode. Fred's death scene is so wonderfully done.

"Wesley... why can't I stay?" made me teary.
 
Tome
Tome
Go Lorne! That was awesome :D
Hole in the World & Shells!! <3

One of my favourite episodes of both Buffy & Angel. The acting between Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof is soo beautiful. they were my favourite Angel characters and I always thought Fred and Wesley should of been together from the start, but then it wouldnt be a Joss Whedon show lol. Even though Illyria is super kickass, ive watched a hole in the world and shells like 5 times at least, and i think i still get teary everytime. I just always wanted to see Wesley happy with Fred.
 
I think I may have posted this before, but...

As it's been said the Caveman and Astronauts is a multi layered look at the contrast between perspectives, not only of primal and intellectualism but old and new. Fred words "Cavemen win" is particularly haunting, she knows.

Knox's line about Angel was particularly haunting. We can't accept that he wouldn't choose to save Fred but when we are presented with the circumstances, we understand Knox's words.

I admired Fred for standing and fighting even when she was close to death. As Wes learned in Lineage, she isn't the damsel in distress, she's not going to simply let people help her.

Gunn was heartbreaking. He starts singing G&S at the beginning of the ep (and Fred was right in THAW, he has got a nice voice) and when Wes comes in he tries unconvincingly to do his gangsta rap bit. Gunn isn't what he used to be, he's become the image he's presented. When he sees his part in what happened to Fred, he doesn't like this person either. When he goes to the conduit, his own reflection hurts him, that says it all for me.

And on Fresley: I definitely think that Wesley had a ideal perception of Fred which used to be one of my complaints about Fred/Wes as I believed that Wes/Lilah had more emotional honesty but it's hard not to be taken up in the romantic sentiment. Thematically thoughout Lilah and Wesley's relationship, there was this contrast of darkness and light and idealism and reality destroying all hopes and this situation certainly seems no different. The purity is particularly noted when Fred jokes that Wesley only wants to read to her in her bedroom. And the line that states that he loved her before he knew really sums it all.
 
The purity is particularly noted when Fred jokes that Wesley only wants to read to her in her bedroom. And the line that states that he loved her before he knew really sums it all
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And this is why Fred and Wesley as a couple is a major problem for me. Love isn't about purity. It's messy and complex. It can have both a positive and negative impact upon a person. I realize that I'm about to say an unpopular thing, but I've always believe that Fred had a negative effect upon Wesley. He doesn't know how to have an adult relationship with her. He had her on this ridiculous pedestal that she eventually found irritating before her death. Wesley had developed a habit of treating Fred with the mixture of a lover and a parent. Which is why I found their relationship rather disturbing.

Even Fred was guilty of viewing Wesley in an ideal way. Which would explain her negative reaction to his summary about his relationship with Lilah. Perhaps Fred could have dealt with it over time. And perhaps Wesley could have learned to stop viewing Fred in such an idealized way and have a genuinely adult relationship with her. But Angel's little mind wipe over Connor screwed that up in the end and Wesley went back to worshipping Fred and putting her on a pedestal in S5. Worse, the other male characters were just as bad. Fred may have found it irritating at times, but I also got the feeling that she enjoyed being the center of attention.
 
Kana
Kana
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