Angel ep by ep; INSIDE OUT-Darla and dismemberment

saturn5

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INSIDE OUT

The Good;
If nothing else the evil CC versus Darla is so powerful it would get this ep an 8 by itself. But AI versus Skip is also great.

The Bad;
The spell seems to require extremely little blood, if they'd just cut her arm they could probably have had enough.

Best line;
Skip; "Well that ain't right!" (as Wes puts a bullet through his brain)

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
The sacrifices' pleading is just HORRIBLE, she reminds you of Dawn held hostage by Glory ("I just want to go home") but there's no Buffy coming to save her (although in fairness the PTBs do try their best). Can't watch them killing her, this poor girl.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Cliches
Inverting the Hollywood cliche; Connor doesn't save the sacrifice. For once Wes' guns actually work.

In disguise; 8

DB get's his shirt off; 12

Cheap Angel; 6

Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 14
Wes: 6
Gunn; 4
Lorne; 4
Fred; 2

Fang gang knocked out: Angel, Wes, Fred and Lorne all knocked out
Cordy: 15
Angel: 17
Wes: 6
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 2
Lorne; 6
Groo; 1
Connor; 1
Faith; 1
Fred; 1

Kills; 1 vamp for Connor, one demon for Wes
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 41 vamps, 57 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 8 humans
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 13 demons+4 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 humans
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 3 vamp+ 1 demon, 5 zombies
Connor; 14 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 3
Angel: 3
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang: possessed Angel and Connor
Cordy: 4
Angel: 11
Fred; 2
Wes; 1
Gunn; 1
Connor; 1

Characters killed:
255

Recurring characters killed;
9;

Total number of Angel Investigations: Connor and CC out
Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

Angel Investigations shot: Wes catches a ricochet from his own pistol
Angel: 12
Wes; 2

Packing heat; Wes uses his 45's again, he must be a hell of shot to stick one right in Skip's brain.
Wes; 8
Doyle; 1
Angel; 3
Gunn; 2

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast
Angel: 5; Buffy, Darla and The Transcending Furies
Wes; 3; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine
Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky:
Fred refers to 'whipping' and 'spanked'. Naked Gina Torres plus naked CC doing her Lizzie Borden impression (well Manny wanted to die having a lapdance).

Captain Subtext;
Note Fred's little 'Nice suit' comment when Gunn comes back to the hotel, it IS a nice suit but there's obviously some jealousy there

Know the face, different character; 4
Parking garages;
6,

Guantanamo Bay;

Buffy characters on Angel; 16
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony

What the fanficcers thought;

Missing scenes;

Questions and observations;
Poor Connor, boy he's put through the wringer in this one. Connor doesn't want to believe it's Angel, Skip refers to Buffy. So, is the vision that appears to Connor the real Darla brought from the afterlife by the PTBs or is it the First Evil who doesn't want Jasmine mucking up it's plans? Either suggestion is perfectly valid. So how much has AI been manipulated all these years? Shades of classic Dr Who. Angel's attempt to kill CC is reminiscent of Buffy killing him in Becoming pt2

Marks out of 10; 8/10
 
This is the episode where they capture Skip and he spills the details, right? I hate that scene. I cannot buy that everything, everything that happened was so Jasmine could be born. I mean the things like Fred going to Pylea and Lorne leaving and even Gunn staking his sister! I can't buy it.

I think it was actually Darla that appeared to Connor. I say that because of the reaction when he yells at her. She looks very genuinely hurt, where The First would have a different reaction. Plus if there was such a crossover, wouldn't it have been made a little more obvious? I know the networks were hesitant about it but I thought that went only as far as actors.
 
I think probably there wasn't a great big master plan, too much went wrong for that (Angelus killing the beast, Willow restoring his soul) I think Jasmine pretty much made it up as she went along
 
I've never felt so sorry for Connor, jeez no wonder the poor bast*rd cracks !! I mean seriously, the first women you've ever loved, the mother of your unborn child fighting for your soul with a vision of your dead former vampire mother. Season 4 takes the friggin' cake for ridiculous but this is a high/low point. Someone on another thread(sorry whoever you are, I have no idea where I read it) called Connor something like "the most manipulated person in history", ain't that the frickin' truth !
 
Taake
Taake
[No message]
I've never felt so sorry for Connor, jeez no wonder the poor bast*rd cracks !! I mean seriously, the first women you've ever loved, the mother of your unborn child fighting for your soul with a vision of your dead former vampire mother. Season 4 takes the friggin' cake for ridiculous but this is a high/low point. Someone on another thread(sorry whoever you are, I have no idea where I read it) called Connor something like "the most manipulated person in history", ain't that the frickin' truth !

Yeah, it's only in Origin I truly empathise with Connor but you have to admit he has a hard time of it
 
As Gunn said everyone makes there own choices, Jasmine didn't impact on everything that happened to the AI team. After such a powerful season, and some of the best episodes after this episode the final arc for the series sucks. Loved seeing Darla again, and she looked so lush all in white. Wes and his guns actually destroyed a villain.
 
I've never felt so sorry for Connor, jeez no wonder the poor bast*rd cracks !! I mean seriously, the first women you've ever loved, the mother of your unborn child fighting for your soul with a vision of your dead former vampire mother. Season 4 takes the friggin' cake for ridiculous but this is a high/low point. Someone on another thread(sorry whoever you are, I have no idea where I read it) called Connor something like "the most manipulated person in history", ain't that the frickin' truth !

I didn't feel sorry for Connor in this episode I felt sorry for the girl he helped murder. He knew it was wrong and did it anyway, and he had plenty of reasons to think he was being played. Its very true he is the most manipulated person in history, but one chooses to be manipulated. Also I wasn't really a fan of how it was handled afterwards either, since his bad deeds never fully got addressed for a much happier version of Connor was basically better than the old version in a lot of ways, but he didn't earn his great new life and he never had to face up to what he did. Angel just got worse as well he didn't resemble any sort of hero he was in Peace Out or years before that. Also I've never truly believed in the greater good philosophy so thats kinda why I feel this way.
 
I didn't feel sorry for Connor in this episode I felt sorry for the girl he helped murder. He knew it was wrong and did it anyway, and he had plenty of reasons to think he was being played. Its very true he is the most manipulated person in history, but one chooses to be manipulated. Also I wasn't really a fan of how it was handled afterwards either, since his bad deeds never fully got addressed for a much happier version of Connor was basically better than the old version in a lot of ways, but he didn't earn his great new life and he never had to face up to what he did. Angel just got worse as well he didn't resemble any sort of hero he was in Peace Out or years before that. Also I've never truly believed in the greater good philosophy so thats kinda why I feel this way.

I agree I feel sorry for the poor victim but I do think Connor has a get out of jail free card seeing what he's gone through, more so than Willow and Faith in fact
 
Taake
Taake
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Connor Holtz
Connor Holtz
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I agree I feel sorry for the poor victim but I do think Connor has a get out of jail free card seeing what he's gone through, more so than Willow and Faith in fact

Willow and Faith actually had to face what they did, he didn't which makes it easier for me to think their get out of jail free cards were earned. In Choices I think Willow kind of had a point how a crummy upbrining doesn't excuse bad deeds, and I'm not a supporter of the greater good. Its not even Connor's fault he didn't have to face up to anything so I don't blame him for that either.I'll just agree to disagree.

Faith: "Oh yeah? Give me the speech again, please. Faith, we're still your friends. We can help you. It's not too late."
Willow: "It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste."
Faith: "You hurt me, I hurt you. I'm just a little more efficient."
Willow: "Aw, here I just thought you didn't have a come-back."
 
I agree with saturn5. Not to mention Faith and Willow personally murdered a few people while Connor didn't actually kill anyone. Sure, he dragged the girl into the other room but he just stood there like a deer caught in the crossbeams so Cordelia impatiently swiped the clever across the poor girl's throat.

CORDELIA
(remorselessly)
There. That wasn't so hard, was it?​

Not saying this absolves him of responsibility for his part in this but he was being pulled in every direction and Connor was massively confused. Connor just wanted to take care of his family, too bad he been lied to and manipulated so much, he didn't realize that Angel was his family not Jasmine and/or Holtz.
 
Remember much like Faith and Willow Connor does try to commit 'suicide by cop'. He does feel guilty but under Jasmines thrall is he any more culpable than any of AI who let Jasmine eat her followers?
 
Remember much like Faith and Willow Connor does try to commit 'suicide by cop'. He does feel guilty but under Jasmines thrall is he any more culpable than any of AI who let Jasmine eat her followers?

He wasn't under any thrall in Inside Out, there is absolutley no evidence of it. He knew what he was doing, He even tried to free the girl he just decided he was okay letting an innocent die because of Jasmine manipulating him, when he was plenty aware of what an horrible thing he was doing. Darla's statement is very true when she asked him what the hell was his excuse him having a soul and basically making a waste of sacrifice she made when she killed herself to give birth to him, to repayed by him murdering a innocent. He saw Jasmine for who she was when others couldn't, and admits it. He's completley guilty of what he did like Willow is, because he willing did it, all the while knowing exactly what he was doing. He's no less a murder than Angel,Faith,Willow, or Giles are. Connor was crazy screwed up and broke he went after innocents even after he killed Jasmine in Home, and he knew what Jasmine was doing he just didn't care he wanted the lie that was his primary motivation for going along with Jasmine's evil plan.
 
He wasn't under any thrall in Inside Out, there is absolutley no evidence of it. He knew what he was doing, He even tried to free the girl he just decided he was okay letting an innocent die because of Jasmine manipulating him, when he was plenty aware of what an horrible thing he was doing. Darla's statement is very true when she asked him what the hell was his excuse him having a soul and basically making a waste of sacrifice she made when she killed herself to give birth to him, to repayed by him murdering a innocent. He saw Jasmine for who she was when others couldn't, and admits it. He's completley guilty of what he did like Willow is, because he willing did it, all the while knowing exactly what he was doing. He's no less a murder than Angel,Faith,Willow, or Giles are. Connor was crazy screwed up and broke he went after innocents even after he killed Jasmine in Home, and he knew what Jasmine was doing he just didn't care he wanted the lie that was his primary motivation for going along with Jasmine's evil plan.


Connor NEVER killed anyone. He was let someone die but he never killed anyone other then Jasmine who isn't human. He went crazy from the pain he was in, he just wanted it all to stop. But he never actually killed a human.

I love Faith and Willow, but they are worse murderers. Faith killed three or four humans, and Willow killed two. Faith snapped and killed people because she was in pain and chose the Mayor/Darkness, but she ACTUALLY killed people. Unlike Connor.

Willow snapped over the grief of losing Tara and killed two people, tortured and killed Warren. Connor never killed anyone. He was planning on killing himself and cordelia and the people in the store but his goal was to kill himself. But Angel saved him.

Connor never actually killed anyone so I don't see how you can say he's as bad as Willow, Faith and definitely not Angel. Who killed hundreds of people as Angelus, and several people as Angel, Drogyn to name one.
 
Connor Holtz
Connor Holtz
1000x karma!
He wasn't under any thrall in Inside Out, there is absolutley no evidence of it. He knew what he was doing, He even tried to free the girl he just decided he was okay letting an innocent die because of Jasmine manipulating him, when he was plenty aware of what an horrible thing he was doing. Darla's statement is very true when she asked him what the hell was his excuse him having a soul and basically making a waste of sacrifice she made when she killed herself to give birth to him, to repayed by him murdering a innocent. He saw Jasmine for who she was when others couldn't, and admits it. He's completley guilty of what he did like Willow is, because he willing did it, all the while knowing exactly what he was doing. He's no less a murder than Angel,Faith,Willow, or Giles are. Connor was crazy screwed up and broke he went after innocents even after he killed Jasmine in Home, and he knew what Jasmine was doing he just didn't care he wanted the lie that was his primary motivation for going along with Jasmine's evil plan.

I don't totally agree on what you said about Connor, but one thing I agree on is that he did many wrong things. First of all he put his REAL dad at the bottom of the ocean, he lied about it for months. Afterwards he started flirting and hitting on Cordelia while he knew fairly well that Angel was in love with her. He didn't show any remorse or hesitation about that part. He actually wanted to take something away from his dad. As if it would be somekind of payback for his life being miserable. Then you get the whole Jasmine storyline... He willingly decides to let that girl dies at the hand of Jasmine!Cordelia, later on help Jasmine to reach world domination(even though he wasn't in a thrall like the others). And if all that wasn't enough, when he decides to be done with it and kill himself, he actually bring Cordy and innocent peoples into it... WTF? I know his life wasn't a party, but that's a lot of things I just can't defend him on.

Now when you ask if he was worse than Willow or Faith, I'd say he had a better excuse than the others two because it was never his choice to be brought to Quor'Toth or raised by a vengeful man. Just that his choices afterwards weren't the best.
 
Connor NEVER killed anyone. He was let someone die but he never killed anyone other then Jasmine who isn't human. He went crazy from the pain he was in, he just wanted it all to stop. But he never actually killed a human.

I love Faith and Willow, but they are worse murderers. Faith killed three or four humans, and Willow killed two. Faith snapped and killed people because she was in pain and chose the Mayor/Darkness, but she ACTUALLY killed people. Unlike Connor.

Willow snapped over the grief of losing Tara and killed two people, tortured and killed Warren. Connor never killed anyone. He was planning on killing himself and cordelia and the people in the store but his goal was to kill himself. But Angel saved him.

Connor never actually killed anyone so I don't see how you can say he's as bad as Willow, Faith and definitely not Angel. Who killed hundreds of people as Angelus, and several people as Angel, Drogyn to name one.



murder n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way), and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute many states make killings in which there is torture, movement of the person (kidnapping) before the killing, as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), and the death of a police officer or prison guard all first degree murders with or without premeditation, and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life others (such as firing a gun into a crowd, or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. (Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. To be murder the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice, and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. (Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus). Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought. (See: manslaughter, first degree murder, second degree murder, homicide, malice aforethought, premeditation)

The legal definition of murder is as above, what did would qualify as murder if you want to get technical he didn't have to actually kill anyone himself to be guilty of murder. He had aforethought, intent,he attacked the girl(battery), premeditation, kidnapping, which all equals murder. I took law in high school, and he's just as much a murder as Willow, Faith, Angel, and Angelus are.
 
The death of the innocent is horrific, your heart bleeds for her but if we can forgive Giles, Faith, Willow, Illyria, Xena etc I think we should be able to forgive him considering the fairly unique circumstances?
 
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