Angel ep by ep; INSIDE OUT-Darla and dismemberment

I don't give a flying frak about legal definitions TBH, Connor never physically killed anyone.

And I agree saturn5, if we can forgive those characters of their actual murders, we can forgive Connor of the hand he played in Jasmine's.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
saturn5 said:
The death of the innocent is horrific, your heart bleeds for her but if we can forgive Giles, Faith, Willow, Illyria, Xena etc I think we should be able to forgive him considering the fairly unique circumstances?
Click to expand...

Its not a matter of forgiveness I'm not going to hold something against him for something he clearly doesn't even remeber wasn't even given a chance to remeber. I just don't think he's less guilty of murder or not a murder based off the fact that he didn't do the killing itself.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Connor Holtz said:
I don't give a flying frak about legal definitions TBH, Connor never physically killed anyone.

And I agree saturn5, if we can forgive those characters of their actual murders, we can forgive Connor of the hand he played in Jasmine's.
Posted via Mobile Device
Click to expand...

Its really not a matter of forgiveness its not remotely his fault he was never held to the same standard as Faith and Willow. Also if you don't care to actually compare characters using the same standards then its pointless to dicuss it anymore.
 
I don't know what your deal is and why you're being so uppity but if it's pointless, we won't be discussing it any further.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
It's a really difficult one isn't it. First of all, it's not just about the legality of murder, it's the moral implications. Can we honestly say just because Connor didn't do the chopping then it's ok, even if he punched an innocent girl unconscious and dragged off to be killed. He was a part of, and facilitated murder.

Comparing his deeds to others may have some relevance but I wouldn't assume we'd have to forgive the others. What I'd do (if I had more time and knew it wouldn't go off topic) would look at each case in detail and see how much responsibility we lay upon them. In any case Connor knew he was doing the wrong thing but after everyone in his kept lying to him and especially as the primary influence in his life moulding his mind to be manipulated by extension hate himself, it's hardly suprising he sunk to the depths of nihilism but unless he's in a 'Dana' state of mind, we have to hold him as responsible as Faith with her messed up childhood, or Angel who lest we forget has a demon inside him, DID and spent 100 years in hell and he still manages for the most part to try and do the right thing and takes full responsibility when he doesn't.
 
Although the Jasmine arc drives me crazy, I do really like this episode. I loooooove Darla being back! The way they dressed her really portrays that she has earned her redemption by her selfless act for Connor. It's so heartbreaking that Connor doesn't listen to her.

And the 8-Ball again- Angel: What are you? "Ask Again Later." Personally, I think the 8-Ball is waaaay underused in the Buffyverse. 😉

Usually Angel's the one with the rousing speeches, but I really liked Gunn's:
Fred: Will it make a difference? We really are just pieces being moved around a board.
Gunn: Then we'll kick it over and start a new game. Look, monochrome can yap all he wants about no-name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past couple of years. The final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing—you never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom, or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you—the world in the balance—'cause you never know when it is.

I like this Angel/Wes exchange, their friendship is being healed:
Angel: Wes, Lilah and I weren't exactly friends.
Wesley: You were mortal enemies. Why should you care what happened to her?
Angel: Because you did.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

I'm confused about some things regarding Jasmine. I get why she/it manipulated things so that Angel & Darla slept together & conceived Connor. Then it made Cordy ascend to a higher plane so that it could take up residence inside her body. She came back, Lorne's Spin the Bottle spell "woke it up". But Skip also says:

"You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope."

So my question is, why? Why did Jasmine need these other things to happen? It brought Lorne out of Pylea to what...do the Spin the Bottle spell? Nobody else could've done that? And what did Jasmine have to do with Gunn killing his sister & joining AI? Fred going to Pylea? Wes sleeping with Lilah? None of that makes sense, it just doesn't seem to have anything to do with Jasmine's master plan...why would she/it be concerned about that stuff that is not important?

Or is Skip just yanking their chain in order to maximize their desperation & despondence?
 
When you put it like that i think that Skip isn't saying that Jasmine made everything happen. I think he/it is speaking from a perspective of Good and Evil being in tumult for thousands and thousands of years across multiple dimensions. Each constantly looking for an opportunity to thwart the other, and to build their own advantage, creating chances for their players to make a difference.

That is one way it fits with Gunn's speech:
"So you just treat it all like it was up to you"”the world in the balance"”'cause you never know when it is."
 
VisionGirl said:
I'm confused about some things regarding Jasmine. I get why she/it manipulated things so that Angel & Darla slept together & conceived Connor. Then it made Cordy ascend to a higher plane so that it could take up residence inside her body. She came back, Lorne's Spin the Bottle spell "woke it up". But Skip also says:

"You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope."

So my question is, why? Why did Jasmine need these other things to happen? It brought Lorne out of Pylea to what...do the Spin the Bottle spell? Nobody else could've done that? And what did Jasmine have to do with Gunn killing his sister & joining AI? Fred going to Pylea? Wes sleeping with Lilah? None of that makes sense, it just doesn't seem to have anything to do with Jasmine's master plan...why would she/it be concerned about that stuff that is not important?

Or is Skip just yanking their chain in order to maximize their desperation & despondence?
Click to expand...

I'm quoting myself because after watching Shiny Happy People I got an answer to the Lorne thing: he sent Angel & Darla in the Trials. Angel didn't succeed at winning a second chance for Darla, but he did earn a life (Connor's). The other stuff? Yeah, no answer & I just finished watching the entire season. I have to say though that I don't quite believe Jasmine or Skip about everything being manipulated/caused by Jasmine. I think they'd both lie/manipulate to get their will done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom