Angel(?) in Grad Day...

[Gum Gnome33]

WA's related post about Angel's soul reminded me about something that's always bothered me, that I've never really seen discussed--certainly it isn't dealt with on the show itself.

In Graduation Day after Buffy punches him 3 times in order to "convince" him to drink her to save his life, he vamps out and is no longer resistant. Then, he continues to do so until he seems to have a distinct change in awareness at which point he stops himself and rushes her to the hospital, seemingly full of remorse.

So what I never understood is: "who" did he become, after he was punched by Buffy? Was it a temporary switch to pure demon, taking what it wanted with no regard for Buffy's safety? Was it Angelus? I can't believe that it was a souled Angel that was drinking from her; I mean sure she'd asked him to do it but in the first place, he had completely refused, and secondly it is well within his character to let himself die before he'd put Buffy's life at risk.

And if it isn't Angel--if that was really some pure form of demon or Angelus in the room with her--isn't the information that Angel can be turned with 3 consecutive punches really valuable? Like, say, something he'd want to warn the rest of the Fang Gang about?

Finally, if it is indeed possible to make a souled vampire change into pure demon by punching him a certain number of times, logically speaking shouldn't it make an already soulless vampire-- at the very least-- filled with blood lust and rage? This didn't happen when Buffy beat Spike within an inch of his life. Not in the least. (And there's really no concrete way to measure this when she's beating up other soulless vampires--they pretty much always want to kill her before and after the punching.)Do we call plot hole, here? Or is there something else going on?

This has bothered me for a while guys, any thoughts??

 

[brinkster130]

Interesting questions!

IMO while Angel has a soul, he is still a vampire and has a demon in him. The soul just allows him to feel and control that demon more. When Buffy hit him repeatedly that demon and his vampire instincts took over. So I don't think it was Angelus, but it wasn't the Angel with his demon under control that we were use to seeing.

It is in a vampires instinct to drink human blood for survival, so in his weak state, he succumb to that instinct for a few seconds.

Also, Angel was incredibly weak at the time from the poison and literally on his death bed; so I don't think it's a fair assumption that all it takes is three hits for his inner demon to lash out. We've seen Angel hit repeatedly on both shows multiple times in which that outcome was never repeated; so I don't see how knowledge of what happened that night could be of any value. That night was not an average night for Angel or Buffy.

 

[ladydorotea]

Cough, cough, you seem to be consistently ( and deliberately ?) forgetting about the whole *magical poison designed to disable and kill vampires * thing here. The whole point of Angel being delirious and loosing grip on reality most of the time through that particular episode to the point of taking Willow for Buffy seems to have been put there on purpose, you know. To emphasize that Faith's poisoned arrow was 'special' -- and that Angel was loosing his mind. The whole 3 punches argument might as well be expanded and turned upside down to argue that all it takes to turn Spike into a pure demon would be playing that little recording of ' Early One Morning' to him - and omit the whole point of the magical trigger being put there by the First.

 

[ashleigh]

As Angel says himself, he can walk like a man but he isn't one.

Personally I don't think he became anyone. He was still Angel. Just a dying Angel whose fundamental will to live took over. As [MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] says, he was delirious.

Also, I think this is somewhat plot-holey as well. 😛

 

[Ripper666]

In my eyes it was this natural defense-behavior all the vamps show. You can see this very often with nameless vamps but also Spike and Angel turned into demons when they got beaten up for a certain time. I would say the demon doesn't want to get his ass kicked. So he takes controll. 😀

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I assume, just like any human, he could lose control. He was Angel, but a sick and weak Angel, and in a rage. I think his demonic instincts took over, like our fight or flight instincts could. His are just different. No removed soul, his instincts just took over.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

[MENTION=10582]brinkster130[/MENTION], good point that because it was really a special circumstance, it didn't necessarily mean that Angel could be turned on other occasions just by punching alone. It's just always bothered me that the poison could be the cause; I love the fact that up until she punches him he completely refuses to drink from her, in spite of the fact that he is weakened both physically and emotionally. It just seems like there's a huge gap between that happening and him becoming something else.

[MENTION=8557]Skytteflickan88[/MENTION], true true. I guess I was sort of giving him the benefit of the doubt/in Jossian style assuming that there most have been something that forced the lack of control!

Cough, cough, you seem to be consistently ( and deliberately ?) forgetting about the whole *magical poison designed to disable and kill vampires * thing here. The whole point of Angel being delirious and loosing grip on reality most of the time through that particular episode to the point of taking Willow for Buffy seems to have been put there on purpose, you know.

I'm not "deliberately" forgetting about the poison. I happen to believe that Angel had a enough of a "grip on reality" to know that he didn't want to risk Buffy's life to save him. He made that clear, and the only thing that changed that was the punching.

I do accept that the poison played a role in it, however, I don't see it being *the reason* since as I said, he had already refused to drink from Buffy.

 

[ladydorotea]

Just to bring up another example of *almost* the same situation -- in AtS S4 when Wesley fishes Angel out of the ocean he comments that "A vampire can exist indefinitely without feeding, but the damage to the higher brain functions from prolonged starvation can be catastrophic." And we are treated to a very tense moment there , almost expecting Angel to snap and eat them up - he does not. Meaning that his self-control is sufficiently present after 4 months starving under water. The poison that watchers Council specifically developed to disable vampires seemingly has stronger effect, effectively overriding those 'higher brain functions', soul or no soul.

I have to say that the verse is full of paradoxes like this that are perfectly illogical - as well. Zompires, (cough cough )are incapable of even minimal control that 'normal vampire' exhibits. Does not mean they are 'more pure' , they are likely simply lack mental facilities.

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] Supposedly the poison was making his mental state progressively worse. At some point he was able to refuse to drink but as debilitation was getting progressively worse adding a few kicks to the head would have probably turned off his remaining brain higher functions.

 

[dexeded]

He lost his grip, his self control. Spike getting beaten up by Buffy wasn't nearly as bad as the poison Angel had in his system. Remember, it was the Killer of the Dead, specifically designed to be inimical to vampires. Coupled with Buffy's Slayer-powered punches, he lost control of his demon and it took him over completely.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

About the pure demon comment.
When Anya was talking about the ascension she was at, she mentioned that vampires were only tainted demons not pure demon.

 

[Taaroko]

Angel has vampiric instincts and urges every second of every day, and they're always really strong. He had a hard time getting control of them when he first got his soul, and even after he got past that, he still majorly slipped up at that doughnut shop and had a really hard time resisting when Darla threw Joyce at him, so we know his self-control isn't 100% ironclad. In GDII, he was on the brink of death and delirious enough to mistake Oz and then Willow for Buffy. When Buffy punched him, all that did was bring on his natural demonic defense mechanism (vamping out), but he still didn't lunge at her neck. She had to hold his mouth against her neck for several seconds before the temptation was finally too much for him and he bit down. He might even have slipped into one of his delirious moments at that point, losing all ability to understand the ramifications of his actions. Once the taste of her blood was on his tongue (his first fresh human blood since he got his soul back), it would have kicked his appetite into overdrive, and chances of coming to his senses and releasing her would have been even slighter. I know the show has many flaws and inconsistencies, but the bite scene has never struck me as one of them.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Thanks everyone for the really insightful and well thought out comments! Ok, I am getting on board with the belief that the combination of poison and temptation were enough to make Angel lose all control in this specific circumstance. Certainly the fact that once Angel was able to stop himself once had the antidote could serve as further proof that the poison plays a huge role in all of this.

I guess this sort of brings up another issue which is just minimally addressed in season 7, which is that vampires with souls are still incredibly dangerous, "curse clause" or not. I mean, Angel does so much to make sure he doesn't become Angelus again, but it turns out there are (probably) plenty of other ways for his demon to take over. With souled Spike, we see that the First can manipulate him into killing but to me that doesn't really register as an example of a lingering danger but rather an extreme circumstance. But obviously, the threat is always there. The poison and temptation are always there. When Giles says in season 7 that Buffy shouldn't have had Spike's chip removed, it's the only time anyone's actually expressed concern that a souled vampire might need further restraint for the safety of others. But, again, that's the only time it's mentioned. I would like to see some sort of dialogue in which Angel and Spike consider, themselves, how dangerous they could easily become, and what they plan to do about it. Just something to think about! Could be an interesting plot line at the very least...
(PS I haven't read the past few issues of the Angel & Faith comics)...

 

[Taaroko]

I would like to see some sort of dialogue in which Angel and Spike consider, themselves, how dangerous they could easily become, and what they plan to do about it. Just something to think about! Could be an interesting plot line at the very least...
(PS I haven't read the past few issues of the Angel & Faith comics)...

I think soulful vamps certainly are dangerous. And there has been some stuff on this subject in the most recent issues of the Angel & Faith comic. 😉 The gist of it is that Angel fears he would succumb to his bloodlust if he didn't have the memories, guilt, and anguish over everything Angelus did. This fear was kind of proven in "Spin the Bottle", as "Liam" (Angel with memory loss) didn't seem too interested in resisting his vampiric nature once he knew about it.

The same thing came up in "Carpe Noctem", when Marcus swapped bodies with Angel. Marcus essentially became the vampire with a soul in Angel's place. He had none of Angel's emotional baggage from Angelus, and he quite plainly was into the idea of living it up as a vampire. He didn't really bite Lilah on purpose, but it was definitely deliberate when he bit the lady from the club, and he seemed cool with living like that forever.

This is pure speculation, but I also think Lawson (the guy Angel turned in "Why We Fight") could have had a soul, because he was sired by a vampire with a soul. He never fought against his demon even though he felt no satisfaction or fulfillment from killing people.

So it's entirely possible that a soul alone isn't enough to restrain a demon as powerful as a vampire. We saw how powerful that demon was in "The Dark Age", because the demon inside Angel was able to destroy Eyghon from within in just a few seconds. Eyghon was strong enough to completely suppress Jenny when it was possessing her, and it even changed how she looked. The vampire demon has to be really strong to be able to destroy Eyghon so easily, and that's what the human souls of any soulful vampires are constantly up against.

The soul needs *serious* motivation in order to stand a chance of staying in control, and the extensive guilt baggage Angel and Spike carry over their past actions certainly constitutes that. Liam, Marcus, and possibly Lawson lacked that baggage, and they all failed at reining in their demons.

 

[white avenger]

Pretty much as has already been said, Buffy hitting Angel was to make his demon take control over his normal inhibition against biting anyone human, let alone Buffy. The amazing thing to me was that he was able to regain control before he completely drained her, assuming he did so, and she didn't somehow stop him herself (doubtful, I know, but since it happened off screen, it IS a possibility) and that his recovery was so fast that he was able to get her to the hospital in time.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Has it been said before? I'm not sure. Maybe, just maybe, Buffy hitting him was nothing to do with Angel biting her, maybe she just felt like hitting him?

Should we refer to Buffy hitting Angel as, The Spike Factor?