Angel in "Touched"

white avenger

white avenger
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Assume for the sake of discussion that either Giles and Wood were successful in killing Spike, or he just never came back to Sunnydale in time to be in Season 7. Now, Angel comes to deliver the amulet a day early, and gets there just in time to find out that the Scoobies and Potentials had mutinied and thrown Buffy out of her own home.

That's the scenario, now here's the question:

What would Angel's reaction to, and attitude toward, Giles and the rest be?

(In other words, what would he have done differently than what Spike did?)
 
He was always kind of deferential to Giles and the Scoobies so I don't think he would have shouted at them like Spike did. He would have been angry though and would have wanted to find out the whole story (having not been there for most of it). He wouldn't have hit Faith as they had a bond and Angel isn't as quick to anger as Spike, he's more methodological. I think he'd have thrown something at a wall and then run off to find Buffy.
 
Tome
Tome
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F
forget
Definitely...except maybe throwing something at the wall? haha
white avenger
white avenger
Yeah, he would have thrown something at a wall. Like, maybe Giles or Xander.
He was always kind of deferential to Giles and the Scoobies so I don't think he would have shouted at them like Spike did. He would have been angry though and would have wanted to find out the whole story (having not been there for most of it). He wouldn't have hit Faith as they had a bond and Angel isn't as quick to anger as Spike, he's more methodological. I think he'd have thrown something at a wall and then run off to find Buffy.

Pretty much agree with this - after the big discussion he would have gone looking for Buffy and then she would have given the big lie to her "not needing damsel saving" as she would have fallen right back into Buffy-Angel Forever mode. Would Angel have convinced her to go back to Giles and the group or would they have gone looking for whatever she thought was so important at the vineyard - that is I think pretty much up to each person to decide for themselves.
 
Off topic from the question asked, but it bugged me that Angel didn't stick around to help. There is an impending apocalypse yet Buffy doesn't want him there. Sucks they couldn't use him more for the series finale.
 
Off topic from the question asked, but it bugged me that Angel didn't stick around to help. There is an impending apocalypse yet Buffy doesn't want him there. Sucks they couldn't use him more for the series finale.

Almost certainly, Buffy sent Angel away out of consideration of Spike, or perhaps "caution" would have been a better word. Having Angel and Spike together under one roof would have been like having two pit bulls in the same pen. There would almost certainly have been a fight, and no doubt a very destructive one, incapacitating both men, and also injuring Buffy herself and Faith, assuming that they would have tried to pull them apart. The final battle would have seen Buffy, Faith, Spike, and Angel all in less than peak condition, going out to fight the major battle against the single most powerful opponent Buffy had ever faced. Four damaged super beings can't fight with anywhere near the efficiency of three perfectly conditioned ones, so having Angel stay would have actually WEAKENED her fighting force, rather than strengthening it.

Plus, having Angel incinerated in the hellmouth while Spike survived, especially if she had still told him that she loved him, would have been a much Spuffier ending for the series, but broken the hearts of every Bangel in the fandom.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
But if there had been oil of some kind involved....
So he is arriving post-kick out?

I think he'd come in looking for Buffy, everyone is very awkward and kind of nervous about telling them, then Kennedy tells him proudly that they kicked her out. The Scoobies turn to glare at her, Angel turns fierce, questioning eyes on Giles. Asks him what she means "kicked her out". Kennedy attempts to explain, but Willow kick sends her out [Willow will be in the dog house over that one, let me tell you!]. Giles stares right back at Angel, caught between telling him to eff off and cleaning his classes. A look passes between them, each telling the other that there will be a conversation between them. But not here and not now. It is then when Angel turns to Willow, who starts stuttering, desperately trying to find the words that would make Angel understand why, and eventually it is Dawn who comes forward, as she had only a short time earlier, and tells Angel Buffy was being reckless, about her plan for the vineyard, and that they couldn't trust her judgement anymore. Angel looks at Dawn to Faith, acutely aware of the history of the two slayers and how Buffy views Faith, and asks if "That true?". Faith nods, "A man, it was never meant to go down like that, we were just airing so issues and all of a sudden B is walking out the door." Angel takes that in, rubs his hand of his eyes and expels a mirthless laugh. When he looks back up he asks them where she is, if she's OK. They all pause, look at each other, solemn; they hadn't even thought of that. With that Angel turns on his heel and is heading for the back door, "Where the Hell are you going now?" Xander asks from his spot by the stove. Angel stops, hand on the door, and turns to them, "I'm going to find her and then we are going to the vineyard."

The door slams shut and Scoobies are left standing in the darkened kitchen with nothing but the silence of their shame.
 
S
sisterofmercy
I can totally picture that scene, very well written
So he is arriving post-kick out?

I think he'd come in looking for Buffy, everyone is very awkward and kind of nervous about telling them, then Kennedy tells him proudly that they kicked her out. The Scoobies turn to glare at her, Angel turns fierce, questioning eyes on Giles. Asks him what she means "kicked her out". Kennedy attempts to explain, but Willow kick sends her out [Willow will be in the dog house over that one, let me tell you!]. Giles stares right back at Angel, caught between telling him to eff off and cleaning his classes. A look passes between them, each telling the other that there will be a conversation between them. But not here and not now. It is then when Angel turns to Willow, who starts stuttering, desperately trying to find the words that would make Angel understand why, and eventually it is Dawn who comes forward, as she had only a short time earlier, and tells Angel Buffy was being reckless, about her plan for the vineyard, and that they couldn't trust her judgement anymore. Angel looks at Dawn to Faith, acutely aware of the history of the two slayers and how Buffy views Faith, and asks if "That true?". Faith nods, "A man, it was never meant to go down like that, we were just airing so issues and all of a sudden B is walking out the door." Angel takes that in, rubs his hand of his eyes and expels a mirthless laugh. When he looks back up he asks them where she is, if she's OK. They all pause, look at each other, solemn; they hadn't even thought of that. With that Angel turns on his heel and is heading for the back door, "Where the Hell are you going now?" Xander asks from his spot by the stove. Angel stops, hand on the door, and turns to them, "I'm going to find her and then we are going to the vineyard."

The door slams shut and Scoobies are left standing in the darkened kitchen with nothing but the silence of their shame.

I pretty much agree with this up to the "...and we're going to the vineyard." part. I think that it would have been more likely that Angel would have found Buffy, brought her back to her house and gotten the issues worked out, THEN the whole gang, or more likely a select team, would have gone to the vineyard. Angel is a strategist, unlike Spike, and he doesn't act without a plan. Even more so in this case, because whatever they do is going to put Buffy at risk, something that he has always been at the very least reluctant to do.
 
I pretty much agree with this up to the "...and we're going to the vineyard." part. I think that it would have been more likely that Angel would have found Buffy, brought her back to her house and gotten the issues worked out, THEN the whole gang, or more likely a select team, would have gone to the vineyard. Angel is a strategist, unlike Spike, and he doesn't act without a plan. Even more so in this case, because whatever they do is going to put Buffy at risk, something that he has always been at the very least reluctant to do.

Honestly? I don't think Angel would have cast a second thought to the Scoobies after he walked out the door. In his mind, they were no longer a factor. Even more to the point, they weren't trustworthy.

I agree, he is a strategist, and I think after hearing from Buffy how the first Vineyard trip went down he would have believed he and Buffy going alone was the best option anyway. The more people they brought with them, the more people Buffy had to worry about protecting. If it was just her and Angel, they already have a real and effective rhythm to slaying together, and both have no concern over how the other handles themselves in a fight.

However, on the whole, Angel would have done whatever Buffy asked him to do.
 
He was always kind of deferential to Giles and the Scoobies so I don't think he would have shouted at them like Spike did. He would have been angry though and would have wanted to find out the whole story (having not been there for most of it). He wouldn't have hit Faith as they had a bond and Angel isn't as quick to anger as Spike, he's more methodological. I think he'd have thrown something at a wall and then run off to find Buffy.

I really disagree with this. I think he was deferential in seasons 1-3, but he has changed a lot since then, gone through a lot, and was leading his own team. I think he would've been pissed.
 
white avenger
white avenger
There WOULD have been oil involved. Unfortunately, Angel didn't get it all removed before the battle. Can you say "Angel Flambou?"
Honestly? I don't think Angel would have cast a second thought to the Scoobies after he walked out the door. In his mind, they were no longer a factor. Even more to the point, they weren't trustworthy.

I agree, he is a strategist, and I think after hearing from Buffy how the first Vineyard trip went down he would have believed he and Buffy going alone was the best option anyway. The more people they brought with them, the more people Buffy had to worry about protecting. If it was just her and Angel, they already have a real and effective rhythm to slaying together, and both have no concern over how the other handles themselves in a fight.

However, on the whole, Angel would have done whatever Buffy asked him to do.

I agree, at that point, the Scoobies would be just one step up from cannon fodder to Angel, but my point was that he would be reluctant to put BUFFY at risk if it could have been avoided, or the risk even reduced somewhat. Hence, the main reason for taking others along. They serve as a diversion while he and Buffy go in (remember, at that point, they would have had no way of knowing that they would catch Caleb there alone) and search for whatever was there that was so important.

As for who Buffy would have to worry about, that was what Faith was there for. Almost from the moment that she arrived, she had been the den mother for the Potentials, taking most of at least that concern off of Buffy's shoulders. Buffy, at that point, sadly, might not have liked her, but she knew what Faith could do, and directing and protecting the Potentials was well within her capabilities. It was, in fact, a major part of her objection to Buffy's plan to return to the vineyard in the first place.

So, Faith distracts the Bringers outside (I just can't believe that they weren't lurking around somewhere out there) Angel and Buffy go in, they double team Caleb, which allows Buffy the opportunity to get the Scythe.

Everything goes pretty much as Joss wrote it from that point, with Angel taking Spike's place in the final battle.
 
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[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] agrees: There WOULD have been oil involved. Unfortunately, Angel didn't get it all removed before the battle. Can you say "Angel Flambou?"
LOL!!

Your post is interesting, but I have to say that I like the way it played out: I liked that Buffy went alone. It was something she had to do alone. And she got to meet the Guardian. Of course Joss did absolutely nothing with that incredibly awesome idea (big eye-roll @@), because God forbid we have a mature woman as a hero!! See http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage29/St_Louis_Riggs.htm. But that is kinda off topic. Anyway, yeah, where were the Bringers in all this?
 
I agree, at that point, the Scoobies would be just one step up from cannon fodder to Angel, but my point was that he would be reluctant to put BUFFY at risk if it could have been avoided, or the risk even reduced somewhat.

Not for a second do I buy him trying to dictate to Buffy how the vineyard situation would go down. Not only that, I don't believe his concern would be about Buffy's physical well being at all. He knows and believes in her skill and capabilities as a fighter better than anyone. His concern would have been her emotional state. What I do believe is that he would offer his opinion on strategy, but what Buffy wanted to do is what they would have done. And to my mind what Buffy would have wanted to do is pretty much what did transpire: her going in alone and getting what was hers. She had a point to prove. Not only to the Scoobies but to herself too. After what happened at the house, I cannot envision Buffy coming to them again and asking for help.
 
Not for a second do I buy him trying to dictate to Buffy how the vineyard situation would go down. Not only that, I don't believe his concern would be about Buffy's physical well being at all. He knows and believes in her skill and capabilities as a fighter better than anyone. His concern would have been her emotional state. What I do believe is that he would offer his opinion on strategy, but what Buffy wanted to do is what they would have done. And to my mind what Buffy would have wanted to do is pretty much what did transpire: her going in alone and getting what was hers. She had a point to prove. Not only to the Scoobies but to herself too. After what happened at the house, I cannot envision Buffy coming to them again and asking for help.

Suggesting a plan of action isn't in any way dictating anything. Buffy was the leader, the final authority, and once that was straightened out, I think that the others would have, however reluctantly, come around. And I agree, Angel is well aware of Buffy's skill as a fighter and confident in her ability, when necessary, to take care of herself. Still, no strategist worth his pig's blood would let a single fighter, regardless of her capabilities, face someone like Caleb alone. Angel would come up with a plan that would be aimed at getting whatever the First Evil was guarding and getting back out with it, as healthy and uninjured as possible. That means that he would NOT propose any plan sending Buffy in alone, and would not stand still while such a plan was executed. (That's not dictating, Miss K, that's being forcibly concerned) At the very least, he would have insisted on going along himself, with Faith and a few others held in reserve nearby in case they were needed.

What Buffy actually did, was purely suicidal and totally irresponsible. The fact that she was successful was far more the result of sheer blind luck than any amount of skill or planning. If there had been just a few Bringers there with Caleb, or, god forbid, a couple of ubervamps, Buffy would have not only failed, she would have died, or worse, been taken prisoner, right there. Her inspiration, by her own admission, came from Spike, who, despite all of his other sterling qualities, was more concerned with being with his Slayer, in whatever capacity she allowed, to the very end. The idea of going back home, settling the problems there, and coming up with a viable plan never occurred to Buffy, and, unlike Angel, Spike would never suggest it.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Spike vs Angel debate, just trying to point out that,while Spike inspired one course of action, namely, full speed ahead, fire all phasers, take no prisoners, Angel would have inspired a more cautious plan, less reckless, and much less dependent on sheer dumb luck.
 
Buffy was the leader, the final authority, and once that was straightened out, I think that the others would have, however reluctantly, come around.

Buffy coming back to that house with nothing to her name but her intuition and her conviction would be nothing short of begging. Angel's presence and his subtle shaming of the Scoobies actions would have changed nothing; they just would have had another person to direct their anger and frustrations at.

The only reason Buffy could go back into the house in canon is because she had gleaming, fatal proof in her hands that she was right and they were wrong. The Scoobies could do nothing but relent to her her very real, very earned authority in that situation. If she came back battered and broken, she would have been met with "I told you so."


And I agree, Angel is well aware of Buffy's skill as a fighter and confident in her ability, when necessary, to take care of herself.

When necessary? Nay. Always.

Still, no strategist worth his pig's blood would let a single fighter, regardless of her capabilities, face someone like Caleb alone.

When has Angel ever been in a position to let Buffy do anything when it comes to slaying. When has he ever tried?

Never is the answer to both questions, in my mind.

For God sake, she went in to that haunted house with Kralik to save her mother. Alone. Human. Injured.

Angel letting her do that wasn't even a question raised in the episode.

Buffy is a warrior. And she acts like one too.

Angel would come up with a plan that would be aimed at getting whatever the First Evil was guarding and getting back out with it, as healthy and uninjured as possible.

I'd like to alter my earlier statement on Angel being a strategist to say that he is capable of being a very good strategist, but much like Buffy, when Angel is in a fight or in a pressing situation, he reacts the exact same way Buffy does: on his gut, his emotions, his intuition, blind Hail Mary hope and more than a little audacity and luck. He does what needs to be done and doesn't think much further than that. If we just compared NFA with Chosen: Angel did give anymore thought to what the consequences of taking the Black Thorn down anymore than Buffy thought of the consequences of making all potentials, slayers. All either of them did was think of was needed in those specific situations.

In the situation in Touched, Buffy did not need the Scoobies, and they did not want her.

Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?

ME!

Buffy going after the Scythe alone was an emphatic reiteration of that triumphant moment in Becoming, when she fought back.

That means that he would NOT propose any plan sending Buffy in alone,

Of course he would. Angel has never, ever had an issue with Buffy's strength or her approach to slaying. If going in alone was something needed for a mission, then that is what would happen. The most I can see him doing is asking if she is sure that is how she wants it to go down.

and would not stand still while such a plan was executed.

Oh yes he would!

7X21EOD2307.jpg


What Buffy actually did, was purely suicidal and totally irresponsible.

What plan of Buffy's wasn't suicidal and irresponsible? You don't get the luxury of being responsible with strategy when you are trying to save the world. One of the many reasons why a Slayer usually worked alone.

Angel would have inspired a more cautious plan, less reckless, and much less dependent on sheer dumb luck.

Again, I refer back to absolutely everything Angel has ever done in his life. Angelus plans. Angelus waits. Angel acts.
 
Taake
Taake
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Buffy coming back to that house with nothing to her name but her intuition and her conviction would be nothing short of begging. Angel's presence and his subtle shaming of the Scoobies actions would have changed nothing; they just would have had another person to direct their anger and frustrations at.

The only reason Buffy could go back into the house in canon is because she had gleaming, fatal proof in her hands that she was right and they were wrong. The Scoobies could do nothing but relent to her her very real, very earned authority in that situation. If she came back battered and broken, she would have been met with "I told you so."




When necessary? Nay. Always.



When has Angel ever been in a position to let Buffy do anything when it comes to slaying. When has he ever tried?

Never is the answer to both questions, in my mind.

For God sake, she went in to that haunted house with Kralik to save her mother. Alone. Human. Injured.

Angel letting her do that wasn't even a question raised in the episode.

Buffy is a warrior. And she acts like one too.



I'd like to alter my earlier statement on Angel being a strategist to say that he is capable of being a very good strategist, but much like Buffy, when Angel is in a fight or in a pressing situation, he reacts the exact same way Buffy does: on his gut, his emotions, his intuition, blind Hail Mary hope and more than a little audacity and luck. He does what needs to be done and doesn't think much further than that. If we just compared NFA with Chosen: Angel did give anymore thought to what the consequences of taking the Black Thorn down anymore than Buffy thought of the consequences of making all potentials, slayers. All either of them did was think of was needed in those specific situations.

In the situation in Touched, Buffy did not need the Scoobies, and they did not want her.

Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?

ME!

Buffy going after the Scythe alone was an emphatic reiteration of that triumphant moment in Becoming, when she fought back.



Of course he would. Angel has never, ever had an issue with Buffy's strength or her approach to slaying. If going in alone was something needed for a mission, then that is what would happen. The most I can see him doing is asking if she is sure that is how she wants it to go down.



Oh yes he would!

7X21EOD2307.jpg




What plan of Buffy's wasn't suicidal and irresponsible? You don't get the luxury of being responsible with strategy when you are trying to save the world. One of the many reasons why a Slayer usually worked alone.



Again, I refer back to absolutely everything Angel has ever done in his life. Angelus plans. Angelus waits. Angel acts.

1) Buffy would have been going back to her house with the one thing that she didn't have when she was thrown out. Support. One voice saying, simply, "Listen to what she has to say, THEN decide," would have made the difference. That's why it was so vital to the story that Spike was gone. Buffy might face a dozen vampires single handedly, but actually facing her friends down, with no one to support her, is something that she just had no experience with.

2) If Angel had come back with Buffy, in support of her plan, or at least ready to sit down and work out the details, I have little doubt that Faith would have jumped at the opportunity to turn command back over to Buffy. She hadn't ever wanted the job in the first place, and her original objections to going back to the vineyard were more about going in, once more, without any sort of plan.

3) Saying that Buffy can defend herself whenever necessary and saying that she is always capable of defending herself mean exactly the same thing. We agree on that point.

4) Buffy going after Kralik, "Alone. Human. Injured." was, also, stupid and suicidal. And, if Angel, or Spike, or even Riley, had been there at the time, no, Buffy would not have gone in alone. They wouldn have gone with her, or followed her in, but Buffy would NOT have gone in alone.

5) Yes, Buffy is a warrior. Once more, we agree. But in this case, she is also a leader, and as such, too valuable to risk on one man missions. I know, she had been doing it all season, and almost all of the time throughout the entire series. The difference is, now, for the first time, she wasn't JUST the warrior, she was the protector and provider for a group of girls who were, literally, the hope of the future. She had more to worry about than just herself.

6) Angel reacted with his gut feelings WHEN IT WAS NECESSARY. He also, whenever possible, laid out a careful plan of action in order to assure the success of his mission. Look at "Not Fade Away." I might not approve of his goal, but his plan in achieving it was sound strategy, and he had obviously been working on it for weeks, if not months, in advance. Whatever was at the vineyard that belonged to the Slayer was important, but, as far as anyone knew, it didn't propose any immediate threat. There was time to plan, and Angel would have put that time to good use.

7) In "Touched," Buffy most certainly DID need someone else. Remember that "pity ditty" in the abandoned house? Without Spike, or SOMEONE who she cared about, giving her the encouragement to get back in the game, she would have stayed there and never accepted the fact that she was, in fact, "the One." By her own admission, Spike's encouragement at that crucial moment was the only thing that gave her the courage, resolve, and determination to do what she had to do. I'm assuming here that we both believe that Angel could have accomplished that just as well as Spike. (Well, ALMOST as well.) I'm just saying that, considering the differences in the two men and their personalities, Angel would have inspired a more cautious, thought out approach to the situation.

Once more, I am NOT trying to turn this into a Spike vs Angel debate, though certain comparisons have to be made, by the very nature of the question. Throughout their histories, Angel, whether you add the "us" onto his name or not, is far more inclined to plan out his moves carefully in advance whenever possible, whereas Spike was, by his own admission, "all about the kill," impetuous and reckless. Since Buffy's actions in going after the scythe after being inspired by him reflect that philosophy, I am assuming that Angel would inspire action consistent with his own personality.

(And, by the way, the smirking Angel telling Caleb, "You are SO going to lose," bespeaks tremendous confidence i n Buffy's abilities, but that confidence is based solely on the fact that he has never SEEN her lose. He never saw her initial fights with Adam, or Glory, the first ubervamp, or even Spike in "School Hard," when in each case she so, almost DID lose. Add to that the fact that Caleb was probably as powerful as any one of them, of not more powerful, and that smirk just might have been replaced with the look of genuine concern. Almost certainly, his stance would have been less released and more tense, ready to come to Buffy's aid if he saw that she needed it.)
 
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1) Buffy would have been going back to her house with the one thing that she didn't have when she was thrown out. Support. One voice saying, simply, "Listen to what she has to say, THEN decide," would have made the difference. That's why it was so vital to the story that Spike was gone. Buffy might face a dozen vampires single handedly, but actually facing her friends down, with no one to support her, is something that she just had no experience with.

She had the support of a vampire that the majority of the that house wouldn't trust as far as Andrew could throw him. Angel's support meant nothing. Just as Spike's would have meant nothing. If either of them had been there at the time of the dispute the best that could have happened is that they left with Buffy. The only person who could have turned the tide for Buffy at that stage was Giles.

2) If Angel had come back with Buffy, in support of her plan, or at least ready to sit down and work out the details, I have little doubt that Faith would have jumped at the opportunity to turn command back over to Buffy. She hadn't ever wanted the job in the first place, and her original objections to going back to the vineyard were more about going in, once more, without any sort of plan.

Faith probably would have fallen in because of Angel. But Buffy would never have gone back. Least of all for Faith.

4) Buffy going after Kralik, "Alone. Human. Injured." was, also, stupid and suicidal. And, if Angel, or Spike, or even Riley, had been there at the time, no, Buffy would not have gone in alone. They wouldn have gone with her, or followed her in, but Buffy would NOT have gone in alone.

But Angel, Giles, Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia were there and she still went alone.

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that anyone but Buffy gets a say in these situations. She makes the call. No one else.

5) Yes, Buffy is a warrior. Once more, we agree. But in this case, she is also a leader, and as such, too valuable to risk on one man missions. I know, she had been doing it all season, and almost all of the time throughout the entire series. The difference is, now, for the first time, she wasn't JUST the warrior, she was the protector and provider for a group of girls who were, literally, the hope of the future. She had more to worry about than just herself.

No she didn't. For all intents and purposes Buffy had been fired. The second she walked out that door they became Faith's burden and responsibility. And she tells Faith as much.

Whether you wanted it or not, their lives are yours.

6) Angel reacted with his gut feelings WHEN IT WAS NECESSARY. He also, whenever possible, laid out a careful plan of action in order to assure the success of his mission. Look at "Not Fade Away." I might not approve of his goal, but his plan in achieving it was sound strategy, and he had obviously been working on it for weeks, if not months, in advance. Whatever was at the vineyard that belonged to the Slayer was important, but, as far as anyone knew, it didn't propose any immediate threat. There was time to plan, and Angel would have put that time to good use.

And it is ALWAYS NECESSARY. And yes he made plans, so did Buffy. But they rarely if ever, went to plan. So they improvised. And while I agree that Angel would have thought of a plan of action it would have been one dependent on the resources they had at hand, which quite frankly, was themselves. And nothing else.

7) In "Touched," Buffy most certainly DID need someone else. Remember that "pity ditty" in the abandoned house? Without Spike, or SOMEONE who she cared about, giving her the encouragement to get back in the game, she would have stayed there and never accepted the fact that she was, in fact, "the One." By her own admission, Spike's encouragement at that crucial moment was the only thing that gave her the courage, resolve, and determination to do what she had to do. I'm assuming here that we both believe that Angel could have accomplished that just as well as Spike. (Well, ALMOST as well.) I'm just saying that, considering the differences in the two men and their personalities, Angel would have inspired a more cautious, thought out approach to the situation.

I do agree that Angel would have provided Buffy that resolve and kick up the arse she needed, but I don't see how the tone and the way in which that support is offered reflects that action Buffy eventually takes. After all, Spike was not so much "CHARGE!" as he as about going back and getting the Scoobies on side again and then going to the vineyard.

So what you are saying Angel would do is actually what Spike suggested. 😛

Once more, I am NOT trying to turn this into a Spike vs Angel debate,

Oh please. You so are! 🙄

Since Buffy's actions in going after the scythe after being inspired by him reflect that philosophy,

I don't believe they do. See, above.

I am assuming that Angel would inspire action consistent with his own personality.

He wold inspire action. The nature of that action would be consistent with Buffy's personality.

(And, by the way, the smirking Angel telling Caleb, "You are SO going to lose," bespeaks tremendous confidence i n Buffy's abilities, but that confidence is based solely on the fact that he has never SEEN her lose.

I think pulling her very drowned body from that pool in the Master's Lair constitutes as seeing her lose.

Angel's confidence in Buffy is not because he hasn't seen her lose. It is because he has seen her lose and get back up again. Stronger and more determined.
 
She had the support of a vampire that the majority of the that house wouldn't trust as far as Andrew could throw him. Angel's support meant nothing. Just as Spike's would have meant nothing. If either of them had been there at the time of the dispute the best that could have happened is that they left with Buffy. The only person who could have turned the tide for Buffy at that stage was Giles.



Faith probably would have fallen in because of Angel. But Buffy would never have gone back. Least of all for Faith.



But Angel, Giles, Xander, Willow, Oz and Cordelia were there and she still went alone.

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that anyone but Buffy gets a say in these situations. She makes the call. No one else.



No she didn't. For all intents and purposes Buffy had been fired. The second she walked out that door they became Faith's burden and responsibility. And she tells Faith as much.

Whether you wanted it or not, their lives are yours.



And it is ALWAYS NECESSARY. And yes he made plans, so did Buffy. But they rarely if ever, went to plan. So they improvised. And while I agree that Angel would have thought of a plan of action it would have been one dependent on the resources they had at hand, which quite frankly, was themselves. And nothing else.



I do agree that Angel would have provided Buffy that resolve and kick up the arse she needed, but I don't see how the tone and the way in which that support is offered reflects that action Buffy eventually takes. After all, Spike was not so much "CHARGE!" as he as about going back and getting the Scoobies on side again and then going to the vineyard.

So what you are saying Angel would do is actually what Spike suggested. 😛



Oh please. You so are! 🙄



I don't believe they do. See, above.



He wold inspire action. The nature of that action would be consistent with Buffy's personality.



I think pulling her very drowned body from that pool in the Master's Lair constitutes as seeing her lose.

Angel's confidence in Buffy is not because he hasn't seen her lose. It is because he has seen her lose and get back up again. Stronger and more determined.

1) The emphasis there is that Buffy would have has support, not who was giving it. Buffy allowed herself to be overruled and even thrown out because, for one of the very few times in her life, the people who trusted and supported her the most, the people who were the very thing that made Buffy unique from all of the Slayers before her, not only weren't there to support her, they were actively opposing her. Whether the support had come from Angel, Spike, or even Andrew, I really believe that it would have made all the difference. One person standing alone is far easier to intimidate and bully than two people standing together.

2) Buffy would have gone back because of the mission, not because of, or in spite of, the mission. "It's the mission that counts." Buffy would have had no more time for vendettas or personal grudges than Wood did.

3) Angel, Xander, Oz, WEREN'T there when Buffy went, alone, to rescue her mother from Karlik, and he posed an immediate concern, leaving Buffy no time to go hunting for them. As far as she knew, whatever Caleb was holding at the vineyard while it almost certainly presented an ultimate threat, was not an immediate threat. If she thought that it were, she wouldn't have waited the amount of time that she did after the first battle before attacking again. At the best, she would have seen to her wounded, then regrouped and gone back in.

4) Certainly Buffy would make the final call. That's what leaders do. But if you recall, she was more than willing to discuss plans and tactics. Unfortunately, everyone else was too busy saying that they didn't want to go back into harm's way to listen to any reasons why they should, or to plan a way that would be less dangerous, give a better chance of success, or, hopefully, both.

5) Technically, Buffy was "fired" as soon as Kendra was called, and even more so when Faith came to Sunnydale. What kept her doing what she did was her resolve and the recognition of the fact that the job had to be done, whether she was still the Chosen One or not. How long do you think that she would have carried on without the help and support of her friends?

6) No, I am suggesting that, while the end result would have been the same, namely, retrieving whatever it was that Caleb had, the method in which Buffy accomplished it would have been different.

7) No, this is a debate over how the circumstances would have changed if Angel had been there instead of Spike. That requires a certain amount of comparison, but not competition.

8) I can't help but believe Angel saying, "Come on. We;'re going back right now and work this out," would have resulted in a different curse of action than Spike holding and comforting Buffy all night in a strange house.

9) I will concede that Angel saw a frightened, relatively inexperienced, 15 year old Buffy lying face down in a pool of water, but from then on, all that he ever saw was a Slayer who even he (as egotistical as it might sound ) couldn't beat. Even the second time that she died, it was due to self sacrifice, not defeat by a hell god.

10) With an opponent like Caleb, there simply IS no getting back up once you're knocked down, unless he has some reason to let you get up.
 
Angel is not one to blow up when he's angry. He hardly ever screams or yells. I can see him saying one or two cutting remarks directed at the Scoobies or Giles and then calmly walking out to find Buffy, but his main concern would have been to find her and let her know he was there to be on her side and support her.
 
1) The emphasis there is that Buffy would have has support, not who was giving it. Buffy allowed herself to be overruled and even thrown out because, for one of the very few times in her life, the people who trusted and supported her the most, the people who were the very thing that made Buffy unique from all of the Slayers before her, not only weren't there to support her, they were actively opposing her. Whether the support had come from Angel, Spike, or even Andrew, I really believe that it would have made all the difference. One person standing alone is far easier to intimidate and bully than two people standing together.

I believe it would have made a difference for Buffy, but I don't think it would have changed the Scoobies minds. And who is offering the support is integral in the same way Giles, Willow and Xander not giving their support was integral to Buffy leaving. If all the potentials, Faith, Wood and Anya had opposed Buffy and the core four stood with her, Buffy never would have been kicked out.

2) Buffy would have gone back because of the mission, not because of, or in spite of, the mission. "It's the mission that counts." Buffy would have had no more time for vendettas or personal grudges than Wood did.

But that only works if she is the one in control and she wasn't; they were. Without the Scythe Buffy would have had to been accepted back into the group on their terms, not hers. Buffy coming back saying "This is what needs to happen" is absolutely ludicrous because she was not the one calling the shots anymore. She still wanted to go into the vineyard and they still believed it to be a fools earned. Angel, or Spike, doesn't change that.

3) Angel, Xander, Oz, WEREN'T there when Buffy went, alone, to rescue her mother from Karlik, and he posed an immediate concern, leaving Buffy no time to go hunting for them. As far as she knew, whatever Caleb was holding at the vineyard while it almost certainly presented an ultimate threat, was not an immediate threat. If she thought that it were, she wouldn't have waited the amount of time that she did after the first battle before attacking again. At the best, she would have seen to her wounded, then regrouped and gone back in.

Yes, they weren't there but they were present in Sunnydale and could have been there. Buffy had the option of back up and didn't avail of it. That was my point.

But that's exactly what she did do; see to the wounded and regroup.

5) Technically, Buffy was "fired" as soon as Kendra was called, and even more so when Faith came to Sunnydale. What kept her doing what she did was her resolve and the recognition of the fact that the job had to be done, whether she was still the Chosen One or not. How long do you think that she would have carried on without the help and support of her friends?

She wouldn't have. The whole reason Buffy lasted is because she fought for her friends. Fighting for "right" or herself has never sustained Buffy and never will.

6) No, I am suggesting that, while the end result would have been the same, namely, retrieving whatever it was that Caleb had, the method in which Buffy accomplished it would have been different.

I don't believe it would have simply because Buffy needed to do what she did in that vineyard and she needed to do it on her own, or at least without the involvement of those who had kicked her out.

8) I can't help but believe Angel saying, "Come on. We;'re going back right now and work this out," would have resulted in a different curse of action than Spike holding and comforting Buffy all night in a strange house.

It doesn't work that way. When you are kicked out by people you trust the one who did the kicking, especially when they were wrong to do so, are the ones who have to make the move. Angel would have had first hand knowledge of this since he fired all of his crew and kicked them out. He betrayed their trust and it was he who had to come to them. Not the other way around.

9) I will concede that Angel saw a frightened, relatively inexperienced, 15 year old Buffy lying face down in a pool of water, but from then on, all that he ever saw was a Slayer who even he (as egotistical as it might sound ) couldn't beat. Even the second time that she died, it was due to self sacrifice, not defeat by a hell god.

Angel has faith in Buffy. Call it misguided if you want. But he trusts her completely. And he was right; Caleb so lost.

10) With an opponent like Caleb, there simply IS no getting back up once you're knocked down, unless he has some reason to let you get up.

Except Buffy did get back up. And she made sure he stayed down.
 
I believe it would have made a difference for Buffy, but I don't think it would have changed the Scoobies minds.


But that only works if she is the one in control and she wasn't; they were. Without the Scythe Buffy would have had to been accepted back into the group on their terms, not hers.



Yes, they weren't there but they were present in Sunnydale and could have been there. Buffy had the option of back up and didn't avail of it. That was my point.

But that's exactly what she did do; see to the wounded and regroup.



She wouldn't have. The whole reason Buffy lasted is because she fought for her friends. Fighting for "right" or herself has never sustained Buffy and never will.



I don't believe it would have simply because Buffy needed to do what she did in that vineyard and she needed to do it on her own, or at least without the involvement of those who had kicked her out.



It doesn't work that way. When you are kicked out by people you trust the one who did the kicking, especially when they were wrong to do so, are the ones who have to make the move. Angel would have had first hand knowledge of this since he fired all of his crew and kicked them out. He betrayed their trust and it was he who had to come to them. Not the other way around.



Angel has faith in Buffy. Call it misguided if you want. But he trusts her completely. And he was right; Caleb so lost.



Except Buffy did get back up. And she made sure he stayed down.

I'm ba-a-a-a-ack!

1) If Buffy had come back with Angel's support, the Scoobies would, at least, have heard her out. Once they did that, they might very well have agreed with her plan, or, as she offered in the first place and was ignored, set down with her in a closed room, away from Wood, the Potentials, and probably Anya. In doing that, they might have found a middle ground where they could all agree.

2) Buffy doesn't have to be he one in charge to get the job done. She did it when Giles was in charge and when Wesley was in charge, and did it quite successfully. She could ignore Faith at least as easily as she did Giles or Wesley.

But, seriously, if she came back with Angel, he could have acted as a negotiator and at least maintain some sort of order s that both sides could voice their opinions. Buffy wasn't ever allowed to explain what her plan consisted of. If she had been, the others might not have been so negative in the first place.

3) Okay, Angel, Oz. Xander, Willow, and possibly the Winchester brothers were all in Sunnydale, just sitting ready to jump at Buffy's call. She just plain forgot because all that she could think of at that moment was rescuing her mother. Bad plan, poorly executed. Hopefully, in retrospect, she realized it, and made at least some small effort to insure that it wouldn't happen again.

4) Buffy retreated, took everyone to the hospital or back home, then went strolling down memory lane at the high school, where sve could very easily have been killed by Caleb (And why he didn't just end the job right then and there is a mystery far beyond my powers of comprehension)

5) Buffy didn't fight for her friends, they helped her in her fight. If she quit and ran away, do you honestly believe that they would take it upon themselves to fill in for her on a permanent basis? (not just over the summer the way that they did between Seasons 2&3, and 5&6 ) Highly unlikely.

6) Remember what Buffy told Wood? "I'm fighting a war. I don't have time for vendettas." If she could say that to him, she had to believe it, and apply it to herself as well. Buffy went to the vineyard alone because she knew that it had to be done, and there wasn't anyone who could go with her. If she had had help available, someone who could have gone in the sunlight, if only to create a diversion and draw everyone's attention, I have no doubt that she would have used it.

7) It does happen that way, every day. Two opposing parties employ a neutral If Angel could work as an arbitrator, he might have been able to get Buffy and her friends to settle their differences and worked. together.

8) But Angel DOESN'T have complete faith in Buffy's abilities, or he would still be human. Or has he had some sort of epiphany since "I Will Remember You?"

9) And the only reason that Buffy "got back up" that last time was because Angel slugged Caleb before he could chop her head off with her own Scythe. On her own, she was Slayer toast right then and there.
 
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