Angel is a douche

[Buffyverse Fan]

Joyce was imperfect, certainly. One thing that always frustrated me in season 3 was when she kept insisting that Buffy ran away. Sure when she told her not to come back it was impulsive and in the heat of the moment and she didn't actually mean it but how was Buffy supposed to know that? I generally liked her though.

Joyce's point did make sense though, how is one girl with roughly the strength of a demon supposed to combat hundreds of thousands of demons?

 

[crazysoulless]

I'd say that BtVS SouledSpike was not a douche. AtS SouledSpike, especially in the comics...it's too depressing to think about.

Joyce didn't even want to believe that Buffy was the Slayer though. Even though Buffy staked a vampire and it turned to dust two feet in front of her face. And in DMP she actually blames Buffy not only for running away but for making mistakes that lead to getting kicked out of school. It was being framed for murder that got her kicked out from Sunnydale High. And destroying a building while fighting vamps that got her kicked out of Hemery. Not Buffy's fault. Everything she did was in the line of duty.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Joyce's point did make sense though, how is one girl with roughly the strength of a demon supposed to combat hundreds of thousands of demons?

Yeah, The Shadow Men didn't think it through did they? 😛 She did have a point and her confusion was justified, but I'm talking about when things calmed down a bit after Buffy came back. (Or am I forgetting something?)

 

[crazysoulless]

The Shadowmen, talk about douchebags! Conking girls on the head with staffs, being all Black Misty Smoke Thing meet Helpless Chained Up Maiden. Now demonize the heck out of her. And one of them actually had the nerve to complain that Seneya didn't talk as much as the Buffster when they did the ritual on her. Excuse Buffy! Sexist Douche!

 

[Kean]

We should set up some kind of installment plan 😉

Not so fast...

Lorne
Doyle
Souled!Spike
Joyce
Oz
Betta George
Drogyn

Lorne-Shot Lindsay dead. Yes, it was for the mission but murder is murder is douchey.

Doyle-If feeling bad after doing something douchey negates the Douchebag status, well then Angel is in the clear then isn't he? The man has the patent on guilt!

The way Souled!Spike treated Woods once he realised how to master the trigger was douchey in my book. He had a soul, he had killed the guy's mother and ruined his life and instead he turns on the swagger and attidtude and makes it clear he has no regrets he killed her? Not cool.

Joyce kicked Buffy out, that is pretty much the douchiest thing a parent can do. I know she had alot to take in in those moments but lets just pause and think about what 17 year old Buffy was facing as she walked out that door, what she had been dealing with for two years before that moment. I mean seriously, what mother regularly washes blood out of her daughters clothing and doesn't question it? That still boggles my mind.

I may conceed you Oz, but not yet...😛

I don't now enough about Beta George and Drogyn to comment but given the nature of this verse and people in general, it isn't a stretch to believe they have messed up royally too.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Lorne-Shot Lindsay dead. Yes, it was for the mission but murder is murder is douchey.

Well Angel made him do it, plus the implication was that Lorne saw Lindsey doing something terrible in the future.

Doyle-If feeling bad after doing something douchey negates the Douchebag status, well then Angel is in the clear then isn't he? The man has the patent on guilt!

Difference is, Doyle felt guilty about something that wasn't his fault. He had no money or fighting skills, what was he supposed to do?

I don't now enough about Beta George and Drogyn to comment but given the nature of this verse and people in general, it isn't a stretch to believe they have messed up royally too.

Drogyn couldn't even lie, and was studied by the Watcher's Council because he was such a pure force for good.

I may conceed you Oz, but not yet...😛

1 million Euros please 😉

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's like saying that life is just breathing and paying taxes.

This made me smile. 🙂

Nice to see this post generating such interesting discussion! Carry on, friends.

Oh, and I agree with the last sentance of the post as well; every single character could be boiled down to their base, worst qualities. But that would be missing the point, wouldn't it?

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Not so fast...
Lorne-Shot Lindsay dead. Yes, it was for the mission but murder is murder is douchey.

Heh. "Shot Lindsey dead". I've always found the phrase "Shot them dead" to be impeccably hilarious. 😀

The way Souled!Spike treated Woods once he realized how to master the trigger was douchey in my book. He had a soul, he had killed the guy's mother and ruined his life and instead he turns on the swagger and attitude and makes it clear he has no regrets he killed her? Not cool.

I didn't see any "Swag", he just got some of his confidence back. And Wood had just tried to KILL Spike. I don't think that Spike owed Wood any compassion after that little stunt. Besides, why should he care about Nickki? It's not as though he knew her. And I'm assuming that you think that Wood is a "douche" too?

Joyce kicked Buffy out, that is pretty much the douchiest thing a parent can do. I know she had a lot to take in in those moments but lets just pause and think about what 17 year old Buffy was facing as she walked out that door, what she had been dealing with for two years before that moment. I mean seriously, what mother regularly washes blood out of her daughters clothing and doesn't question it? That still boggles my mind.

I didn't see it as Joyce kicking Buffy out as much as Joyce saying something to reinforce her authority over Buffy. After all, I doubt that she thought that Buffy was going to leave after hearing that she'd get kicked out if she did. Joyce was probably just trying to protect her daughter and keep her at home.

As for laundry, the only thing that I can think is why doesn't Buffy do her OWN laundry? She's 17. I've been doing my own laundry since I was TEN. :biggrin3:

I may conceed you Oz, but not yet...😛

Exactly. :biggrin3:

I don't know enough about Beta George and Drogyn to comment but given the nature of this verse and people in general, it isn't a stretch to believe they have messed up royally too.

But again, how does messing up, once, make you a douche? EVERYBODY messes up. According to you, EVERYONE is a douche. 😀

 

[Kean]

Well Angel made him do it, plus the implication was that Lorne saw Lindsey doing something terrible in the future.

Nobody was "made" do anything. Angel laid out the realities of his plan from the off, he told them they did not have to par-take in it if they didn't want to. He told them it was going to be a big ask. Lorne agreed to carry on knowing this. Angel asked him to kill Lindsau and Lorne was the one who pulled the trigger and shot Lindsay point blank. And he didn't do it with Angel pointing a gun to his head either.

Difference is, Doyle felt guilty about something that wasn't his fault. He had no money or fighting skills, what was he supposed to do?

If feeling guilty for something that isn't your fault negates douchebag status then Angel is in the clear then isn't he? As for what Doyle could have done? Anything at all bar getting drunk would have helped. Some action that signified his will to help, his concern. Something to say that he tried.

I didn't see any "Swag", he just got some of his confidence back. And Wood had just tried to KILL Spike. I don't think that Spike owed Wood any compassion after that little stunt. Besides, why should he care about Nickki? It's not as though he knew her. And I'm assuming that you think that Wood is a "douche" too?

To me he rather enjoyed his triumph over Wood, I definitely saw swagger when he went over to play the song again to prove how ineffective it now was and he absolutely enjoyed telling Wood that his mother didn't care for him.

Why should Spike care about Nikki? Because he then had a soul and you would assume his deathcount would hang heavy on that soul. You would think he would regret the pain he inflicted on people. Clearly, he did not.

And yes, Wood is also a grade A douche!

I didn't see it as Joyce kicking Buffy out as much as Joyce saying something to reinforce her authority over Buffy. After all, I doubt that she thought that Buffy was going to leave after hearing that she'd get kicked out if she did. Joyce was probably just trying to protect her daughter and keep her at home.

I still think that telling your child that they are not welcome in their own home is one of the worst thing a parent can do. But even if we forget about this issue there is still Joyce's comments to Pat when Buffy comes back, when she says in some ways it was easier when Buffy was gone. Douchey, and supremely so.

But again, how does messing up, once, make you a douche? EVERYBODY messes up. According to you, EVERYONE is a douche. 😀

Yup, we are. It's ok though, we're kinda supposed to be.

 

[dan k]

In terms of the television show i'd say Willow was a douche because of how she let magic consume her like it did.

Xander was a douche due to his behaviour towards Angel which reeked of jealousy.

I don't think i have to explain why Cordelia was a douche.

Buffy was a douche for how she treated Angel in Sanctuary.

Giles was a douche for conspiring to get Spike killed.

Anya was a douche for being so inconsiderate.

Souled Angel was a douche for firing Wes, Gunn and Cordelia

Obviously the above have many other flaws aswell, those are just some i picked up on. Tara didn't really do anything wrong for me and neither did Oz. Ok so he left Willow but he needed to do that, if the Werewolf wasn't inside of him he would have stayed.

Souled Spike didn't really do anything wrong either.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Article is kinda stupid, you gather together a list of peoples 'douchiness' and they are gonna look stupid.

But I agree with Kean, they have all been douches at some stage.

The main ones people seem to be defending are Oz, who cheated on Willow, he gets to say he did it to protect people but he still cheated.

Drogyn, I don't think is a fair one, we know very little about him.

Souled Spike, I think Keans example works fine, but you could also use, him not telling Buffy he was back., or jumping into bed with Harmony when he became 'solid' again (totally forgot the right word instead of solid, lol).

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Is Spike supposed to wait forever for Buffy? 😕 He was incorporeal for awhile and probably...'antsy', and he's had sex with Harmony before. He knew she'd probably be willing. That doesn't make it okay, more because he was using Harmony than that it wasn't Buffy. I don't know much about Spider or their relationship.

I called him a douche because he wore the jacket of Nikki, a woman he brutally murdered only until it was ruined. Also he blamed her for her own murder. That was one of the worst things I've seen on the show and they played it off like it was completely okay because he was ensouled.

To me he rather enjoyed his triumph over Wood, I definitely saw swagger when he went over to play the song again to prove how ineffective it now was and he absolutely enjoyed telling Wood that his mother didn't care for him.

Why should Spike care about Nikki? Because he then had a soul and you would assume his deathcount would hang heavy on that soul. You would think he would regret the pain he inflicted on people. Clearly, he did not.

Yes, well said.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Nobody was "made" do anything. Angel laid out the realities of his plan from the off, he told them they did not have to par-take in it if they didn't want to. He told them it was going to be a big ask. Lorne agreed to carry on knowing this. Angel asked him to kill Lindsau and Lorne was the one who pulled the trigger and shot Lindsay point blank. And he didn't do it with Angel pointing a gun to his head either.

I agree. Nobody "Made" Lorne do anything. He has free choice.

To me he rather enjoyed his triumph over Wood, I definitely saw swagger when he went over to play the song again to prove how ineffective it now was and he absolutely enjoyed telling Wood that his mother didn't care for him.

I dunno. I mean, I don't like Spike that much, and I ESPECIALLY don't like Souled!Spike, but I just saw a different scene, I guess.
:biggrin3:

Why should Spike care about Nikki? Because he then had a soul and you would assume his deathcount would hang heavy on that soul. You would think he would regret the pain he inflicted on people. Clearly, he did not.

Well, Spike, like Xander, was very into the present. Past was past, and done was done. He wasn't going to go crazy with the alphabetizing of his sins and such, he was just going to go on with life. He was soulless then.

And yes, Wood is also a grade A douche!

Hah, yeah, I didn't like Wood. He was annoying. I did like Nikki, however. 😀 She was cool...

I still think that telling your child that they are not welcome in their own home is one of the worst thing a parent can do. But even if we forget about this issue there is still Joyce's comments to Pat when Buffy comes back, when she says in some ways it was easier when Buffy was gone. Douchey, and supremely so.

She was just being honest. 🙂

Yup, we are. It's ok though, we're kinda supposed to be.

Hah. Interesting philosophy. It's alright. I prefer the "We are all just dust in the wind" one, though. Calling all of us "Douches" just seems a bit... Well, it gives us too much credit. :biggrin3:

And why is it that ALL insults originated from none insulting words? Like, some people at my school started calling everyone "Squid" lol. "Oh, what a squid." Er... 😀

 

[crazysoulless]

He didn't need to wait at all for Buffy. She said "I love you", slept in his arms three nights in a row, was going to die in Hell with him, defended him to her friends, told him she believed in him, took out the chip, was ready to talk about a future romantic relationship with him, was openly affectionate with him, etc. He finally got everything he'd hoped and for her to feel everything that he'd wanted her to feel for years.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

He didn't need to wait at all for Buffy. She said "I love you", slept in his arms three nights in a row, was going to die in Hell with him, defended him to her friends, told him she believed in him, took out the chip, was ready to talk about a future romantic relationship with him, was openly affectionate with him, etc. He finally got everything he'd hoped and for her to feel everything that he'd wanted her to feel for years.

That's not what I meant by 'waiting'. It seemed like people are saying he should have waited only until he could be with Buffy to have sex.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I never said he should be waiting for buffy. (I personally don't think he would have a chance)

But what makes him a douche is not telling Buffy he was back, then when he was corporeal he jumped into bed, then when Angel goes to Italy where Buffy is, he's back on the Buffy train.

- douche. (but no more then any of the others, they've all been douches)

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I never said he should be waiting for buffy. (I personally don't think he would have a chance)

And he's said that. And he had no reason to lie, whether or not it is actually true.

But what makes him a douche is not telling Buffy he was back, then when he was corporeal he jumped into bed, then when Angel goes to Italy where Buffy is, he's back on the Buffy train.

I grew to hate that episode, and that was one of the reasons, actually.

 

[crazysoulless]

That's not what I meant by 'waiting'. It seemed like people are saying he should have waited only until he could be with Buffy to have sex.

The further into BtVS, the more it seemed like that was the kind of person Spike was becoming. Someone that valued sex and would no longer have one-night stands with randoms or meaningless relationships like had with Harmony in S4/5 (as it was she seemed a Buffy substitute *same age and hair color with that demon twist* and by the end of that affair he was fantasizing about Buffy while having sex with Harm and then later he couldn't get it up until Harmony dressed up in Buffy's clothes and pretended to be Buffy).

It is one of the reasons he turned down Anya's advances in S7. Even soulless in S6 he seemed hesistant to sleep with that goth girl in Hells Bells even though Buffy ended their relationship. He regretted having slept with Anya in Entropy. He was clearly still in love with Buffy and there was no reason not to wait to have sex until he saw her again. It was really disgusting that it was Soulles/Clueless Harmony that had to point out to Soulful Intutive Spike, "You don't want me! You want your Slayer whore!"

 

[DoughnutHole]

Sometimes he was Noble. Sometimes he was funny. And, yes, sometimes he was a douche.

For me, the height of his Douchiosity was his interactions with Lindsey. I get that he's a morally ambiguous lawyer, but I thought Angel was always a supreme Douche towards him. And it got to a point where I just felt bad for poor Linds.

 

[Wesley]

Lindsey was Angels bitch, that was the whole point. No matter what Lindsey tried to do, or not do, or accomplish Angel always had the upper hand. In the game of life Angel wins and Lindsey loses.

If Lindseys ass were real estate, Angel would have a summer home on it with a boat and a little golf cart so he doesn't have to walk if he doesn't want to. That's how much he owned him.


That being said of course Angel can be a real d-bag. He's also The Man and the real hero of the whole Buffyverse.



(yeah I said it, he's the biggest hero of them all)