Angel is a douche

[ToShanshuInLA]

Sometimes he was Noble. Sometimes he was funny. And, yes, sometimes he was a douche.

For me, the height of his Douchiosity was his interactions with Lindsey. I get that he's a morally ambiguous lawyer, but I thought Angel was always a supreme Douche towards him. And it got to a point where I just felt bad for poor Linds.

I very much disagree. It was an ultimate douche (or a worse word, if you will) moment for him to have Lindsey killed, or at least not to do it himself but Lindsey spent most of the time he was in Angel's life trying to ruin him...He didn't owe Lindsey kindness.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------

"crazysoulless agrees: You see, that is what I don't get. Faith did more to try to ruin Buffy's life and almost EVERYONE gets on Buffy's case for not supporting Faith in Sanctuary and for not wanting to keep things as "allies" instead of "friends" in S7."


Some of the things I remember Lindsey doing: He tried to burn the scroll in To Shanshu in L.A. (""You need the words of Anatole to cure your friend. She's your connection to the Powers That Be. And since it is foretold that we sever all your connections (holds the scroll into the flames burning in the urn beside him) well...")

He helped Wolfram and Hart resurrect Darla and eventually re-sire her. He worked to torment Angel, drive him crazy, and [fingers crossed] get him to lose his soul in season 2. In season 5 he came back and impersonated his old friend, sicced that parasite on him that ("Soul Purpose"), and tried to kill (I assume) Angel in "You're Welcome" by using that fail-safe.

He had 2 moments of redemption ("Blind Date" and "Dead End", I think was the episode) but they didn't stick whereas Faith tried to atone (by turning herself in and then helping Angel Investigations in season 4) and apparently is still trying to atone. (I'm of course not saying that Lindsey should be trying to atone in the comics, unless he's back from the dead in the comics...)

I'm not seeing how what Faith has done to Buffy is worse than any of that. (I'm not trying to say it was a walk in the park either.)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Some of the things I remember Lindsey doing: He tried to burn the scroll in To Shanshu in L.A. (""You need the words of Anatole to cure your friend. She's your connection to the Powers That Be. And since it is foretold that we sever all your connections (holds the scroll into the flames burning in the urn beside him) well...")

He helped Wolfram and Hart resurrect Darla and eventually re-sire her. He worked to torment Angel, drive him crazy, and [fingers crossed] get him to lose his soul in season 2. In season 5 he came back and impersonated his old friend, sicced that parasite on him that ("Soul Purpose"), and tried to kill (I assume) Angel in "You're Welcome" by using that fail-safe.

He had 2 moments of redemption ("Blind Date" and "Dead End", I think was the episode) but they didn't stick whereas Faith tried to atone (by turning herself in and then helping Angel Investigations in season 4) and apparently is still trying to atone. (I'm of course not saying that Lindsey should be trying to atone in the comics, unless he's back from the dead in the comics...)

Nope, Wolfram & Hart said they could reanimate Lindsey, but they don't need him for the time being.

The implication I got was that Lorne knew Lindsey was destined to do something horrible, he eventually told Angel, and Angel decided he needed to die...

That said, I don't think Lindsey was especially "evil," he was more opportunistic than anything else. His plans involved screwing over Angel and the Senior Partners, and grabbing their powers for himself. But in terms of harming innocents, I don't think Lindsey would do that for kicks.

Honestly, he wasn't much worse than Gwen in the "evil" department...

 

[crazysoulless]

Faith sexually assaulted/violated Buffy. To me a quasi-rape (I flat out think of WAY as rape!) is worse than a normal attack by an enemy. She used a device to switch bodies with her and let someone have sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent, actually tricking Buffy's boyfriend into making love to someone else (you could see the beginnings of a pleasured smile right before he says "I love you"). She punched Buffy's mother *who was her only relative after her father abandons the family) in the face and was coming at her with a knife (and Faith has stabbed people to death before) to kill her in her own bedroom. Faith was planning on personally torturing Buffy to death and screwing happily screwing her boyfriend.

Faith only redeemed because she hit her absolute rock bottom, burned all her bridges by betraying everyone that once trusted or forgave her, etc. Even then her cry for help was in an extremely violent and destructive way (hurting other people).

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Nope, Wolfram & Hart said they could reanimate Lindsey, but they don't need him for the time being.

I remember that but there are other ways he could have been brought back.

The implication I got was that Lorne knew Lindsey was destined to do something horrible, he eventually told Angel, and Angel decided he needed to die...

That's true.

Faith sexually assaulted/violated Buffy. To me a quasi-rape (I flat out think of WAY as rape!) is worse than a normal attack by an enemy.

I agree that it was rape. She also left Buffy to die at the hands of the Council and was planning to take her body out of the country. I still think Lindsey did worse but I respect your opinion. (And this really isn't a competition. 😉)

Faith only redeemed because she hit her absolute rock bottom, burned all her bridges by betraying everyone that once trusted or forgave her, etc. Even then her cry for help was in an extremely violent and destructive way (hurting other people).

It was her hitting rock bottom and someone she had been trying to kill still showing her some kindness and help that got her to turn herself in, I would think. Angel never got that when he was re-ensouled. Darla tried to stake him.

 

[GrrArghx]

You know I never really thought that Lorne had read him again and saw he was going to do something bad.

I always felt like Lorne's "I've heard you sing" line kind of meant like "I've heard this before." You know him acting like he's going to be good, but then he goes and does the betraying thing again?

 

[Kana]

Going back to the OP, I must admit, I laughed.

As cliched as it sounds, although you can fault any character, it comes down to who you like the most or least as the case may be. People are generally more forgiving of the characters they like because, well they like them. I find most of Angel's actions understandable even if I don't agree with them because, for the most part, I identify with him.

As for Lorne and Lindsay: Yes Lorne is just as responsible as Angel. Although it was Angel's plan, Lorne still went a long with it. As for reading Lindsay, as I've said before, what Lorne reads is open to debate and scrutiny. He said himself nothing is written in stone and if he is reading some kind of Cassie Newton fatal destiny then well killing Lindsay is pointless anyway.

If Angel is punishing Lindsay for his past crimes then, well he really did lose the mission bro. He's not supposed to be hunting down the guilty anymore.

As for Angel helping Faith and not Lindsay: I feel this was more instinctual then logical or fair. Both Lindsay and Faith felt guilty for their actions but Angel saw Faith's potential to change. Part of being personally connected and identifying with the people you try to save is feeling emotionally invested in your cause. Angel unfortunately didn't like Lindsay that much so I feel (and Angel even almost saracastically admitted this) he didn't try as hard as he could have done with Lindsay. He couldn't or wasn't willing to try and empathise with him even though he completely understood why he did what he did. However he can only be accused of not trying hard enough ( and well killing him as well) but prior to his death it was Lindsay's responsibility to redeem himself.

Edit: Btw, Angel can be a douche, but he's my douche, for the time being.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Interesting points, everyone!

Regarding Souled!Spike and Harmony: Really, it wasn't that out of character. Spike is a physical, sexual guy. He's never respected Harmony for whatever reason, and she was just...there. I can't see him treating Fred or Cordy in that way.
Also, I'd like to point out that you can be in love with someone and have no qualms with sleeping with someone else. Buffy was the love of Spike's life. Harmony was a quick lay. Big difference. She was MORE than willing, also. We can't put all the blame on Spike. My issue is with how he treated her afterwards. But, even with Soulness!Spike I had issues with how he treated her. It always made me uncomfortable. Just my two cents on that...

Lindsey was Angels bitch, that was the whole point. No matter what Lindsey tried to do, or not do, or accomplish Angel always had the upper hand. In the game of life Angel wins and Lindsey loses.

Yeah. Lindsey was sopposed to be Angel's foil. I'm not sure though if the point of his rivalry with Angel was to illustrate Angel's imperfect nature or to show us the gray area when it came to evil, you know? For me, what happened to Lindsey made Angel look worse in my eyes. What Angel did was ruthless. And to make Lorne do it? Almost unforgivable, in my book. Angel could at least do his own dirty work.

There was a lot of interesting stuff going on with the Lindsey/Angel relationship...the homoerotic overtones, the love/hate thing....

If Lindseys ass were real estate, Angel would have a summer home on it with a boat and a little golf cart so he doesn't have to walk if he doesn't want to. That's how much he owned him.

LOL! This made me laugh. Can you spell "scary visual"?

Angel owned Lindsey because Lindsey wanted him too. He had some fascination with Angel from Day One. Lindsey was so upset that Angel wasn't the one to kill him.

That being said of course Angel can be a real d-bag. He's also The Man and the real hero of the whole Buffyverse.

All of the characters have been a-holes in the past. They're human they make mistakes.

Correction: Angel WAS the biggest Hero in the 'verse. Not anymore.

 

[Kana]

Regarding Souled!Spike and Harmony: Really, it wasn't that out of character. Spike is a physical, sexual guy. He's never respected Harmony for whatever reason, and she was just...there. I can't see him treating Fred or Cordy in that way.

Very true!

Also, I'd like to point out that you can be in love with someone and have no qualms with sleeping with someone else. Buffy was the love of Spike's life. Harmony was a quick lay. Big difference. She was MORE than willing, also. We can't put all the blame on Spike. My issue is with how he treated her afterwards. But, even with Soulness!Spike I had issues with how he treated her. It always made me uncomfortable. Just my two cents on that...

I think it's has to be said that soulledSpike can be selfish as well, like Angel can be sometimes. If he were simply a saint afterwards then it would be dull.

Yeah. Lindsey was sopposed to be Angel's foil. I'm not sure though if the point of his rivalry with Angel was to illustrate Angel's imperfect nature or to show us the gray area when it came to evil, you know?

I think we should give Lindsay a little more credit. Yes, Angel was the centre of his universe but there was more to him. I especially liked his relationship with Holland Manners. This mentor/protege relationship had an air of parental love to it, however twisted that may seem. I also think there are parallels between Faith and Lindsay and Holland and the Mayor. They are not perfect parallels but they are there.

For me, what happened to Lindsey made Angel look worse in my eyes. What Angel did was ruthless. And to make Lorne do it? Almost unforgivable, in my book. Angel could at least do his own dirty work.

I don't agree with Angel did for the reasons I posted above, however, Lorne was NOT bullied into it. Well at least I can't see any evidence that he was. Whatever Lorne read, he believed it justified killing him. If you want to blame Angel, equal blame goes to Lorne. His displeasure wasn't just down to Angel's plan or his choices, it was to do with his own choices, everything that started with him being the first one in the limo in Home.

There was a lot of interesting stuff going on with the Lindsey/Angel relationship...the homoerotic overtones, the love/hate thing....

My fave slash pairing apart from Buffy/Faith.

LOL! This made me laugh. Can you spell "scary visual"?

All of the characters have been a-holes in the past. They're human they make mistakes.

Correction: Angel WAS the biggest Hero in the 'verse. Not anymore.

My love of Angel is pending assessment. Faith may take over as my favourite character.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Well, I thought that was hilarious. Especially the stuff about boobs. I always thought the whole love at first sight thing was BS. The one paragraph summary of 5 seasons of Angel was great! lol

 

[Misty]

I agree with alot of the article. Even though I love 3 ships involving Angel (Dangel, Bangel, and Cangel), I just really dislike Angel right now and season 8 is one of the causes for my dislike of him. When I rewatch Angel episodes, he's kind of annoying when he makes decisions for people, and for season 8 it was just like an "After all that has happen to you!" moment.

Kean, please forgive me 🙂

 

[Tome]

Everyone who were talking about the 'douche' things every character did... For me I think it really depends on your opinion on these situations. I didn't think Lorne was a douche to kill Lindsey, nor do I think Oz was a douche for what he did. Being a douche for me is to do something that's actually aiming to be wrong. Doyle wasn't a douche for not wanting to help someone(who was a demon even) he didn't know at all. He was just scared. He didn't do that to try and hurt somebody.

Now if you want to talk about douchy things peoples did... Take Xander who used Faith to try and kill Angel. Or Giles who went behind Buffy's back to kill Spike. Willow who used that spell on Tara. There was bad intentions behind each of those. But again, you could say it's my opinion on the matter, and it would be right ;P

 

[dan k]

It comes down to your understanding of the word "douche" and also your personal opinion on certain situations. I like Zalos would agree that Giles going behind Buffy's back to kill Spike was him being a "douche". However some people who don't like Spike and agreed with what Giles is trying to do wouldn't see it that way.

Another example is those heavily invested in "Woz". For them Oz leaving Willow would be an example of him being a "douche". Like many things which are discussed on this board it comes down to personal opinion on characters.

However there are certain situations which Tom alluded too where you can't argue against someone being a "douche". Xander's jealousy led to him leading Faith's attempt to kill Angel, it was purely selfish means which means he deserves that title. That selfish behaviour is also reflected in Willow putting a spell on Tara.

So i would conclude that selfish actions by characters would mean they deserve being labelled as a "douche" yet there are many situations where the circumstances aren't that straightforward.

 

[Kelsey]

LOL! Come on guys, it's meant to be funny! I cracked up! I'd love to read one about Spike; that'd be fun.

 

[PDH5204]

Angel gave the fitting reply even before the piece at issue here was written (Angel to Faith in Orpheus): I'm not perfect, Faith. Even with a soul, I've done things I wished a thousand times I could take back.

Lastly, in reply to this:

"If Angel is punishing Lindsay for his past crimes then, well he really did lose the mission bro. He's not supposed to be hunting down the guilty anymore."

...please consider:

LINDSEY
And what if you roll snake eyes?

ANGEL
You'll talk your way out of it. You'll tell them I forced you to help me. Tell them I made my scary face.

LINDSEY
Believe it or not, I was actually talking about you. You don't care about being squashed like a bug?

ANGEL
You haven't heard a word I've said. For, like, years back.

LINDSEY
Well, you get a little speechy, all right? And I breeze out. I got the Cliff Notes—honor and humanity. Absolute good. I heard it. So here's the plot twist—I'm in.

ANGEL
Why?

LINDSEY
Everybody goes on about your soul. Vampire with a soul. Nobody ever mentions the fact that you're really a vampire with big brass testes. This is gonna be a circus. I mean, win or lose, you're about to pick the nastiest fight since mankind drop-kicked the last demon out of this dimension. And that you don't do without me. If you want me, I'm on your team.

That was the wrong answer. A different answer, something about turning over a new leaf, and he'd have been spared. Rewatch the episode. Note the look on Angels' face when Lindsey gives his answer (with Lindsey having his back to Angel at the time, so we get the look on Angel's face that we wouldn't get if Lindsey could see what we at home see).

Almost forgot, but re the "pedo beared" in the piece, sorry, but that's entirely a societal construct. If she were pre-puberty the author would have a point, but leaving aside all human (and/or divine) construct and sticking with the message sent by our biology, if she's had her first period then she's able to reproduce and sexual reproduction is why we have male and female. And so not otherwise any great surprise that a host of peoples around the globe have their age of consent set right around the time that most females have their first you know what.

 

[LadyLavinia]

It comes down to your understanding of the word "douche" and also your personal opinion on certain situations. I like Zalos would agree that Giles going behind Buffy's back to kill Spike was him being a "douche". However some people who don't like Spike and agreed with what Giles is trying to do wouldn't see it that way.

Another example is those heavily invested in "Woz". For them Oz leaving Willow would be an example of him being a "douche". Like many things which are discussed on this board it comes down to personal opinion on characters.

However there are certain situations which Tom alluded too where you can't argue against someone being a "douche". Xander's jealousy led to him leading Faith's attempt to kill Angel, it was purely selfish means which means he deserves that title. That selfish behaviour is also reflected in Willow putting a spell on Tara.

There is always a situation in which people will disagree on what makes a person a douche. For example:

That was the wrong answer. A different answer, something about turning over a new leaf, and he'd have been spared. Rewatch the episode. Note the look on Angels' face when Lindsey gives his answer (with Lindsey having his back to Angel at the time, so we get the look on Angel's face that we wouldn't get if Lindsey could see what we at home see).

I don't know what your opinion was on the matter. For me, Angel had no business ordering Lorne to murder Lindsey. He had no right to do this. Not only is a douche in my eyes, but even more of a murderer.

 

[white avenger]

"Angel-Is-A-Douche Rant

Great assessment of the Ol' Broody if anyone cares to check it out.

http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/05/angel-is-douche-rant.html

Very astute assessment, articulate, carefully researched, beautifully written, highly insightful...

And, of course, funny.

(And I'm sure that I'm one of the few people here who hasn't known about this article for the past 6 months)

 

[zobothehobo]

I laughed so hard at this. I saw the title and was like "OH MY GOD YES!" I agree with everything that person said... haha

 

[VisionGirl]

Even this Angel fan has a sense of humor: that was hilarious. Loved this especially: "You actually do alright for a little while, if I'm honest. Maybe it's just because you're consistently out douched by Xander every week." [ok, so maybe that's making it more about Xander, but still....🙂]

 

[NY State of Mind]

LMAO...even the pic of Angel on a Summer Eve Douche box had me laughing

 

[caitaintdead]

Haha, funny read.

I think it would be excellent to read one of these about Faith and Xander.