Angel: Is he to blame, mostly?

[HyenaDemon]

A lot of characters on Angel say that what happened to Connor was not really his fault. But, it seems as if there are many ways this could've been avoided.

The first mistake that Angel made was kicking Connor out of his house at the beginning of this season. I understand his motives and all, but I can find a million things wrong with that picture. Connor is not stable emotionally or mentally, he CLEARLY demonstrated that he has no qualm causing intense harm to someone who he disagrees with morally, he is super-human, and basically, Angel just threw away his right to complain when Connor falls into the wrong hands. If he wasn't manipulated by Jasmine/Cordelia, then surely he would be manipulated by Lilah. "Oooh, a child of two vampires who was basically left on the street for me! I can manipulate him, and I'm not breaking any laws!". Angel wanted to be a parent, and this was his very lucky second chance he got, and he blew it by kicking him out.

The second mistake that Angel made was lying to Cordelia. It's not a huge mistake, but maybe if Angel didn't lie to Cordelia, Cordelia would be less likely to trust in someone like Connor after Angel told her everything. Angel could warn Cordelia about what Connor is like, and hey, even prevent ANOTHER person close to Angel from being easily manipulated. Geez, Angel is lucky Lilah didn't try to befriend Cordelia. There were so many possibilities that she had before him (manipulating Cordelia as a spy, or as an antagonist that Angel wouldn't want to hurt). Good thing that she was too preoccupied with banging Wesley to try this angle.

The third mistake that Angel made (I'm not sure if it's solely Angel's fault, or what not, or if it's Lorne's, or who's fault it is, but it is an interesting point) is using magic as a way to solve his problems. Lorne's spell was what awoken Jasmine. Maybe, if they just let Cordelia's memory come back naturally, as it was starting to, Jasmine wouldn't have awaken.

I'm gonna cut Angel some slack about his anger for what happened at the end of Apocalypse Nowish, because that's just one of those things that a father should never have to witness. His anger did cloud his judgement, and he did miss some MAJOR things about Cordelia that could tip him off (like, even though Cordelia washed the blood of her murder victims off her body, as a vampire, he should have smelled it. He can smell who Buffy got it on with after months or years, but not the murder of something that happened last night?), but it's just something that a father should never witness.

But confirming his decision to revert to Angelus? Come on, dude. If it takes turning into Angelus to figure out that stabbing the beast with it's own Hide is a sure-shot way to kill it, then he must be brain dead. This is just one of those mistakes that cancel out any justifications for an understandable mistake.

So.. the discussion here, is.. were Angel's flaws responsible for the event that brought about Jasmine? Or was each action Angel made with Connor and Cordelia basically "something you just have to do in those situations", and this was all just unfortunate?

(Off topic, I like how Angel figured out the conncetions of "my sweet" before Inside Out. This shows that Angel DOESN'T need to turn into a deranged serial killer sociopath in order to use his brain. He figured something out that Angelus couldn't, despite obvious beatings over the head)

 

[November]

I dont agree that Angel is to blame for the events of season 4.
On your first point, would you welcome the kid who sent you to the bottom of the ocean for months with open arms? Conner was a spiteful little twit who deserved to be kicked out, he didnt seem to show any remorse for his actions. Angel was still keeping an eye out for him, he hadnt abandoned him.
The Cordy stuff, I can understand wanting to protect her, but Im still unsure about when Jasmine is in control? I thought it was from when Cordy returned hence the reason she had no memories, she wasnt herself.

I thought that everything had been manipulated so that Jasmine could be born. Really they had no say in what was going to happen, they were just puppets used to bring Jasmine to the world. I havent watched it for a while so I might be remembering wrong...

 

[Kean]

The damage was already done by the start of season 4. There was no way Angel could have prevented it. Connor was already an utter mess. The only real chance Angel would have had at preventing what happend is if Connor hadn't been kidnapped but there is still no garuntee the kid would have grown up normal.

 

[white avenger]

The "...now get out of my house..." thing might seem a little harsh on the surface, but, considering Angel's summer vacation at the bottom of the bay, it showed remarkable restraint. Of course, Angel was still in a somewhat weakened condition as a result of that vacation, so kicking the boy's a** wasn't really a viable alternative.

 

[HyenaDemon]

I dont agree that Angel is to blame for the events of season 4.
On your first point, would you welcome the kid who sent you to the bottom of the ocean for months with open arms? Conner was a spiteful little twit who deserved to be kicked out, he didnt seem to show any remorse for his actions. Angel was still keeping an eye out for him, he hadnt abandoned him.

Well, when you think about what Connor's been through, and when you remember that he was convinced that ANGEL and the gang were the bad guys, you gotta realize that leaving someone to starve at the bottom of the ocean just doesn't seem like enough.

But really, it's not about "deserving" to be kicked out. It's about whether or not that's the right option in the situation. It's pretty difficult, since Connor was 18, and he doesn't have to stay there if he doesn't want to, and there's not much a parent can do for kids at that age. But when you deliberately kick someone out, in the end, you accept the possibility that he ends up in the wrong hands. Again. He deserved some punishment, but kicking him out was probably the wrong way to guy.

I don't know, I just think the situation could've been handled differently

The Cordy stuff, I can understand wanting to protect her, but Im still unsure about when Jasmine is in control? I thought it was from when Cordy returned hence the reason she had no memories, she wasnt herself.

It's difficult, but everyone seems to agree that Jasmine was in control after Spin The Bottle. It wouldn't made less sense for her to be possessed in Slouching Toward's Bethlehem, unless Jasmine was so much of a genius that she would pretend to be Cordelia even while talking to herself.

There's also a quote in Inside Out that confirms it.

Angel: "Look, all we know for sure is that the real damage didn't start until after Lorne's Spell"

Fred: "Oh my God. We woke it up."

I thought that everything had been manipulated so that Jasmine could be born. Really they had no say in what was going to happen, they were just puppets used to bring Jasmine to the world. I havent watched it for a while so I might be remembering wrong...

Yes, Jasmine DID manipulate events so that her birth would become possible. But at no point was she capable of infringing on their free will in order for this to happen. Everyone made their own choices in order for the events to happen.

The damage was already done by the start of season 4. There was no way Angel could have prevented it. Connor was already an utter mess. The only real chance Angel would have had at preventing what happend is if Connor hadn't been kidnapped but there is still no garuntee the kid would have grown up normal.

Not really. There are various times in Season 4 where Connor showed some hope for rehabilitation. What we seem to forget is, Connor never actually hated his father, even after Home. He seemed pretty hesitant to actually kill Angel in Orpheus (he showed very little remorse over the possibility that Angelus might need to be killed, but remember: he's a teenager. We do stuff like that). He was pretty angry at Jasmordelia (that's what I'll call her, because one, it's funny, and two, I wanna clarify that I know she was possessed), or at least questioned her, when she "made the wrong move" of killing Angel. It was being manipulated by Jasmine, listening to sweet lies and eventually coming to the sad realization that she was wrong that really screwed him up.

I mean, look at Apocalypse Nowish. Connor was willing to ask Angel to help Cordelia. And even said please. He was starting to come around. Don't you think, if Connor truly felt the way he claimed to about Angel, that he would sooner eat a bowl of demon guts? Especially after Jasmordelia made it plenty clear that he doesn't want Angel's help?

I'm hesitant to bring up a debate about whether or not letting Holtz take Connor to a hell dimension was a better alternative to, letting Holtz killing him.

The "...now get out of my house..." thing might seem a little harsh on the surface, but, considering Angel's summer vacation at the bottom of the bay, it showed remarkable restraint. Of course, Angel was still in a somewhat weakened condition as a result of that vacation, so kicking the boy's a** wasn't really a viable alternative.

Well, yeah. As I said, I understand why he kicked Connor out. But I think it could've been handled a little better. This was potentially the only kid he'll ever have, and he just basically lost his right to complain about people like Lilah getting to him. If Jasmordelia didn't get to him, thousands of evil forces that are fed up with Angel's shit will do something.

 

[LorneyTunes]

well

i think that Angel couldn't do anything for Connor, he was already purty much damaged , Angel had no part init it was holtz and his very sick plan.
Connor is the innocent party only Holtz and justine are really to blame.
Connor wouldn't have ended up that way if it was'nt for them.

Angel tryed his best Connor was'nt really his son he had no bond with him, he may have the same DNA but hes not really nething to do with Angel , Holtz created that monster.


I would say Wesley is more to blame than Angel he should have trusted his friends but then he is doing it what he thinks is for the greater good and to stop Angel from temptation even x

 

[HyenaDemon]

Also, to clarify, I don't have anything against Angel. He's one of my favorite characters. I just like to think that, in good writing, at least one character is responsible for setting in motion the disaster that the characters are facing. It's just better to me than "Life sucks, shit happens".

Sorry if I can't double post, I'm just incapable of editing posts in over 15 minutes

 

[angelchick182]

Also, to clarify, I don't have anything against Angel. He's one of my favorite characters. I just like to think that, in good writing, at least one character is responsible for setting in motion the disaster that the characters are facing. It's just better to me than "Life sucks, shit happens".

Sorry if I can't double post, I'm just incapable of editing posts in over 15 minutes

I think, in most cases, you're right. Many of the bad events on BtVS and Angel that happen are the result of one character's actions. But the contrary was the case for Season 4 - and was one of the major themes that came from it. A lot of people's love/hate relationship with Season 4 comes from the fact that there were soooooo many interlocking story arcs that all had to come together to move the season where it needed to go. My feelings about the season were pretty much summed up by Skip's line from "Inside Out":

"You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction?"

 

[T.I.P]

Its really Angelus's fault. If he didnt kill Holtz family, Holtz would never have kindapped and corrupted Connor, Connor would have grown up an nice little chap, and it would all have ended perfectly.

 

[Lou]

Well, on one hand, I think it was all "fate" so whatever choice Angel made I think Jasmine was coming.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I do believe that Angel handled it ALL very badly.
He shouldn't have kicked Connor out. That was just dumb. If he didn't want to forgive him, fine. But, one choice that isn't a good one is, "Gee, I wanna be your Dad but get out".

And he shouldn't have lied to Cordy.

The magic, perhaps there was no way around it. But, still, he could have been a little nicer to the people in question and not been such a snoot.

Oh, and it wasn't Angelus's fault, for goodness sake! Granted, we should all look ahead to the consequences of our actions, but I think Jasmine was a bit TOO far to look ahead for ANYONE when he was killing Holtz's family!
(And here I thought you were doing better tonight!)

 

[T.I.P]

Its just that HyenaDemon says '...Its just better to me than 'life sucks, shit happens'
But life does suck, and shit does happen. I mean, its not Angels fault, maybe when he kicked Connor out
he just thought Holtz had messed him up and turned him againts him too much, and that there was no rehabilitating him.
Ive had a look at all these posts and just cant agree Angels to blame for any of this.
It was more Holtz fault than Angels, but he's dead so.... life sucks, shit happens.

 

[Nabila]

i think that Angel couldn't do anything for Connor, he was already purty much damaged , Angel had no part init it was holtz and his very sick plan.
Connor is the innocent party only Holtz and justine are really to blame.
Connor wouldn't have ended up that way if it was'nt for them.

Angel tryed his best Connor was'nt really his son he had no bond with him, he may have the same DNA but hes not really nething to do with Angel , Holtz created that monster.


I would say Wesley is more to blame than Angel he should have trusted his friends but then he is doing it what he thinks is for the greater good and to stop Angel from temptation even x

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Wesley, Holtz and Justine have one thing in common and that is their arrogance. I love Wesley but he just could not get over wanting to prove he's a good leader. He stole someone else's child, and no matter what he thought was going to happen, it was wrong. I could never understand why he could not tell Angel and the others about what he found in the prophecy. Angel had a right to know and decide. Wesley made the wrong call and it turned into a right and proper disaster.

Angel could be arrogant at times as well, but kicking Connor out was not from arrogance it was I guess also from fear that Connor might hurt Fred or Gunn. I mean if he could hurt his own father.

And if Holtz had just killed Angelus during the times he cornered him then his family would not have been killed. Instead he turns the capture of Angelus into a production number of speeches and challenges and then Angelus escapes. Arrogant. And a vampire hunter like Holtz should have warned his family not to open the door at night and let strangers in. Hello!!! His little girl opens the door! He goes out killing vampires for what? He couldn't even makle sure his own famil;y was safe.

So no, none of this was Angel's fault.:whistle:

 

[andrewcutter]

i have to disagree on you with alot of things.

one, when angel kick connor out he was still keeping watch over him. it was not like he just forgot him and moved on..... angel watch over him and made sure nothing bad happen.

second, i think angel was going to tell cordy the truth eventually but let a women who doesnt know anything about herself that demons and vamps are real...... come on thats a little overwhelming and angel prob thought that also

as for useing magic to bring her memory back.... if it were buffy and willow wouldent they do the same thing. see we live in a world where the is no magic so we dont have the options they do. If u had a grandfather that had failing kidneys, would u use magic to save his life if u had the option or woud u " wait it out" and let the problem try to fix itself.

and bringing in angelus was not something angel wanted to do but if u could find a way of stoping an unstoppable killing thingy, wouldent us do anything possible to do it?

 

[angelchick182]

In my earlier post, I forget to mention the 'Angel kicking Connor out" situation. I understand why it seemed harsh for Angel to have done that, and IRL it's an option that most parents would even consider in 99% of circumstances. On the show, however, I can see kinda where Angel's coming from. I know that Connor's entire life has been a total trainwreck, and I do have some sympathy for the kid, but he didn't even bother to confront Angel after Holtz's death. Instead, he deceived him, and rather than killing him - sent him to the bottom of the ocean(for eternity, if it had gone to plan), lied to Fred and Gunn about it, and killed off any leads that knew anything.

Son or not, I mean really, is that someone you want living in the same home with you while you and everyone you care about are sleeping? I really don't believe Angel's plan wasn't about abandonment and I don't think he particularly enjoyed sending his child out into the streets. But in the end, I think Angel probably realized there was a 50/50 chance that Connor would turn out o.k. after the experience, and I think he may have had a chance if Jasmine/Cordy hadn't manipulated him.

 

[Angel's vision]

second, i think angel was going to tell cordy the truth eventually but let a women who doesnt know anything about herself that demons and vamps are real...... come on thats a little overwhelming and angel prob thought that also

Agreed. So no-one can moan about him lying to her, and I felt zero sympathy for Cordy whinging about it, I mean given her reaction to Angel being a Vamp in spin the bottle can you blame him?

As for Angel kicking Conner out-he made it plain Conner wasn't ready to be a champion let alone accept the world as it was, he wanted it to be a good place without suffering IMO, and that is what Evil Cordy was manipulating him achieve through Jasmine's birth. he maybe felt Conner needed to see the real world by doing this, I also feel he became his dad in a small way cos when he was Liam he was kicked out for similar reasons, he wanted everything on a platter and pretty much hated his dad, and rebelled against his upbringing.Harsh I know but at the time he was cheesed off and wanted Conner punished a little. I guess that was what helped "Cordy" mess with his head, and Conner mess with Cordy's.

 

[Buffanator]

No way Angel is "to blame" for any of it. And that little bastard Connor should have been kicked out. Notice the dialogue:

Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be. (Angel moves to stand in front of Connor) I love you, Connor. (Quietly, after a beat) Now get out of my house."

Connor had some hard lessons to learn. You can't learn those kinds of lessons by being coddled, and Angel knew that. Connor had to learn to RESPECT others, if not love them, and by "instant forgiveness" that would never come. So I think Angel was perfectly right to kick him out. He knew he could pretty much take care of himself, after all, he grew up in Quar-toth, a hell dimension, & he survived that. AND - Connor was no "kid". He was a full-grown teenager. Big diff.

 

[palabravampiress]

Okay... I don't blame Angel. Shock of shocks. Angel did what a lot of parents do when their grown kids need some tough love: he made a difficult choice in order to try to teach his son how to live with the consequences of his actions. It's a gamble. Sometimes it pays off. I think kicking Connor out was the best option available to him at the time -- and also the one that showed the most restraint. To tell you the truth, Connor deserved to get his butt kicked prior to the "Get out of my house" speech.

 

[The Arcane]

Was Angel to blame for how Connor turned out? Not really. The majority of the blame has to go to Holtz. No matter how he dressed it up as a father/son relationship, Connor was nothing more than revenge against Angel to him and by the time Connor had made his way back to our reality the psychological damage was already done. Connor was nothing more than a preconditioned weapon, by that point.

Could Angel have handled any of the Connor situations better? Maybe. Then again though, most parents would probably tell you that raising any teenage kid comes with it's fair share of mistakes and bad decisions and they don't have the added problem of their kid being super powered and mentally scarred in a demon dimension, so I'd probably have to give Angel the benefit of the doubt. 😉

 

[randiann]

I'll discuss each one of these in order

1. No way can you blame Angel for everything that happened. If I was in Angel's place, I would have done the same thing. As a mother, I can tell you that there is no greater love than the love you feel for your child. But babying a teen who is deeply disturbed and has violent tendencies is not the way to go. I would have done the same. A time out and a firm 'no' is not going to work for Connor. Angel protected the rest of his family living at the hotel (Fred, Gunn, and Cordy) by turning Connor away, and did what was best for the kid. He wasn't helpless. Connor knew how to provide for himself, so it's not like he was going to starve. And if you will remember the scene with Lilah, Angel was watching over Connor and protecting him from the likes of Wolfram and Hart.

2. Maybe Angel shouldn't have lied to Cordelia, but how are you going to say "Oh, by the way, I'm a vampire, but I'm good. Like a care bear with fangs you might say. Also, there are demons in the world and some like to try and decapitate you so that they can eat your spinal cord. Others just read your thoughts as you sing kareoke."

3. Skip points out the ridiculous notion of Cordy actually being a higher power and says something to the effect that it was just a means to allow Jasmine entry into Cordelia's body. My theory on this (wrong as it may be) is that it was Jasmine who came back in the first place. This is why she did not have any of Cordy's memories. The spell that Lorne performed allowed her access to the memories locked within Cordelia's brain. It didn't wake Jasmine up, she was already in the driver's seat.

4. When did Angel smell someone's scent on Buffy after months? I believe you are referring to Angel saying that Buffy has the smell of Spike all over her (something to that effect), but who's to say that isn't from the night before or earlier that day. I know there is one instance where Angel tells Wesley "You had sex with a bleached blonde last night" (help with the ep anyone?) but maybe Wesley was being gross and hadn't showered since then, or maybe he was wearing the same coat that had picked up the scent of the lady. You can't fault Angel for not smelling something like blood where he doesn't expect to find it, especially if Cordy/Jasmine had showered thoroughly since then.

5. Angel's decision to revert to Angelus was a last ditch effort to figure out how to stop an unbeatable foe. It wasn't the brightest move by far, but Angel really didn't have alot of other choices. He was backed into a corner, and it was either use dark magic to change into Angelus and find out some info on the Beast, or have him and all of his friends die painfully.

 

[Lou]

I dunno. I'm with you on the first one, but I'm also not.
Mainly because this isn't really a situation of just a rebellious teen who's acting out.
Connor didn't have a LOT of choices. It's not like he's gonna go out and get his GED, get a job and attend college.
He couldn't even get an apartment. Yes, he WAS a troubled teen, but not really in the same way MOST troubled teens are.
While I'd agree that if my kids grow up and started acting out in the WAY Connor did, I'd probably boot them too. But, they'd also have friends, family, jobs they could get. Lots of stuff. Does Connor even have a birth certificate?
There's also the problem that Angel KNEW people were out to get Connor. I mean, if I throw my kids out, I can logically say there are people who could be out to hurt them, but I would also know it's a lottery whether they'd run into them. Angel knew there were people out to hurt his kid and could name many of them.
It just seems like with a little thought, a more sane ground could have been landed upon. Like, "Okay kid, how about I send you to UC Sunnydale?" or "I know this girl named Anne". Something more than, "There's the streets, go".