Angel is not two dimensional

[AngelAmongUs]

Angel is really not as different souled and un-souled as people say. He's just happier when he doesn't have a soul, able to finally enjoy the things he wants to do, but suffers for when he has a soul. David Greenwalt compared Angel to an alcoholic. He can't handle not having a soul because he enjoys the way it makes him feel too much. Which is why he acts like he doesn't have a soul in ATS when he gets drugged by the movie star. The drug rids him of his inhibitions and emotional pain. Which is why when he thinks he doesn't have a soul anymore he acts accordingly.

We see hints of Angel's often hidden dark nature.

In Lover's Walk Angel taunts Spike about Drusilla's faithfulness right in front of Buffy who has no idea of the history behind his comments. History from not only a hundred years ago, but as recently as the previous season. Angel knows what he is saying, how he's hurting Spike, and he knows Buffy has no clue about what's behind it.

Angel in Lover's Walk taunting Spike about Drusilla:

SPIKE: I used to bring her rats... With the morning paper...
BUFFY: Oh, good, more moping. That's really gonna win her back, Spike.
SPIKE: The spell's gonna get her back.
ANGEL: Lot of trouble for someone who doesn't even care about you.
SPIKE: Shut your gob.
ANGEL: She's just kind of fickle...
SPIKE: Shut up!

In "Enemies" Angel reveals parts of himself that come out when he is souless. Parts that he lets loose to fill the role he is playing. He is, in reality, as much what he shows Faith as he is what he shows Buffy. Not a flip side of himself, but who he is as a complex being. The cumulation of his life as a human, his deeds as a vampire, and being alone with a soul for a hundred years.

 

[sleazywitch]

I totally agree with this. I want people to talk about this more!! I find it fascinating! No one ever talks about how dark Angel is as a character. Everyone always kind of focuses on Spike being some kind of "bad boy" but I think Angel is more than Spike...just, personally. For what you said. Angel has an intense dark side and he tries to hide it a lot because he's ashamed of it. Spike isn't really...quite like that. I mean he has a lot of bravado and junk but he's not intense and like this on coming storm like Angel. They certainly have very different feels to their characters. I've actually wanted someone to do an essay on what you're talking about here...was trying to find it but came up with nothing unfortunately. I personally think Buffy has the same kind of...attraction to darker sides of things as evidence to how she acted around Spike later on in the series...but thats just my opinion. Its why I think her and Angel are really great together but thats my bias. Haha. But, yeah I totally want this to be talked about more! I am glad you brought this up. Angel is just like that. He's intense and has a bit of sadism to him (not in the evil sense...more in like other ways).

 

[thetopher]

Angel isn't the two dimensional character Angelus is.

And I never really thought that Angel's dark side had much to do with Angelus, that's giving him a free pass 'oh, that was Angelus influencing him' or whatever. If Angel does something bad then its on him.

Think about it, if you had 150 years of sadistic memories in your head and it didn't break you, its at least going to give you a deep understanding of cruelty and the baser parts of human nature, its going to give you your own dark side.

Angel and Angelus two separate and distinct beings (see 'Orpheus' this is canon.) They can influence each other- Angelus' obsession with Buffy in S2 (that ultimately drives him to destroy the world) was born about by Angel's great love for her.
And Angel's reaction to Darla's return (both times), his stalking of W&H during his dark period, all fo that had creepy echoes of Angelus, but Angel was in the driving seat.
But they are two distinct beings, they aren't blurred together like Spike and his demon are.

 

[bespangeled]

Angel isn't the two dimensional character Angelus is.

And I never really thought that Angel's dark side had much to do with Angelus, that's giving him a free pass 'oh, that was Angelus influencing him' or whatever. If Angel does something bad then its on him.

Think about it, if you had 150 years of sadistic memories in your head and it didn't break you, its at least going to give you a deep understanding of cruelty and the baser parts of human nature, its going to give you your own dark side.

Angel and Angelus two separate and distinct beings (see 'Orpheus' this is canon.) They can influence each other- Angelus' obsession with Buffy in S2 (that ultimately drives him to destroy the world) was born about by Angel's great love for her.
And Angel's reaction to Darla's return (both times), his stalking of W&H during his dark period, all fo that had creepy echoes of Angelus, but Angel was in the driving seat.
But they are two distinct beings, they aren't blurred together like Spike and his demon are.

Completely disagree - but then we tend to do that.😉

My guess - this was a curse and Angel just split. The demon was conquered by the soul but never absorbed. It wasn't until Buffy that the real process started. How to grow a soul - do good things - set up a karmic/feedback loop. Once Angel decided to help Buffy he set up that loop - his soul flowered (psyche was empowered - use whatever works for you) - and that was part of how the two are so distinct. But I believe that both are always aware of the other, and that controlling Angelus is something Angel has to do daily, and that he is always pulled apart. (This btw is why I believe Angel let Dru and Spike live, and would have let Darla had she not attacked Buffy. Angelus has a strong tie to them. It's enough to put Angel in a bind) Think of it as Ripper on steroids playing16 hours every 24.

I see Bangel as incredible - but I also see that Angel seduced a 16 year old girl to lose her innocence. Yes, in love, slayer, and all others agreed to - this is cause and effect. Angel seduces (over many weeks) her, and that is what the demon would want more than anything. To seduce an innocent like that is really something Angelus loved (reference Dru). Angelus pops out of the box like a demonic sugar junkie. Forces create friction - the demon has had to fight the soul, the demon now is stronger. Resoul...fight....the demon gets sent to hell, and I imagine it found uses for the soul during the period because demons do that to souls in hell. Angel returns and once more has to find a balance between soulboy and the demon

The problem for me is that we use the name Angel for both the soul as well as the two combined. To continue I'm gonna use the term soulboy. Watching the conflict between soulboy and Angelus is what gives Angel his incredible depth. You can see Angelus in his eyes - that was dark!Angel - "Who was that? Angel. He's a force that is always in motion even when he's still

This is the chasm that Angel has to deal with. It's not just the memories, it's soulboy's use of those memories to keep the demon restrained. It's a brutal internal balance and it gets a lot of workout.

Spike has insight and intuition - Angel has wisdom and patience that come from this constant battle.

 

[thetopher]

Sigh, here we go.

Completely disagree - but then we tend to do that.😉

Only in regards to reality.

My guess - this was a curse and Angel just split. The demon was conquered by the soul but never absorbed. It wasn't until Buffy that the real process started. How to grow a soul - do good things - set up a karmic/feedback loop. Once Angel decided to help Buffy he set up that loop - his soul flowered (psyche was empowered - use whatever works for you) - and that was part of how the two are so distinct. But I believe that both are always aware of the other, and that controlling Angelus is something Angel has to do daily, and that he is always pulled apart. (This btw is why I believe Angel let Dru and Spike live, and would have let Darla had she not attacked Buffy. Angelus has a strong tie to them. It's enough to put Angel in a bind) Think of it as Ripper on steroids playing16 hours every 24.

That's a very eloquent guess but its sheer fanon theory that isn't what's shown on the show. Here is what is:

In Orpheus we see Angel (the soul) and Angelus (demon) as two separate entities that share the same host body. They are linked by shared memories, that's what's clear when Angelus and Faith have a magical mystery tour. When Angel is in control/present Angelus is trapped, royally pissed off but ultimately helpless. When Angel is absent Angelus the demon is able to run rampant.

Blaming Angelus's demon-ness on Angel makes Angel waay more boring, abdicating him of responsibility (and we all know how often people are quick to blame Angel for everything he does whilst giving a massive pass to other characters) by saying that's his demon self.

It's also worth noting that, although Angel might think of himself as 'Angelus'- as in he is the guy who did all those terrible things (although this comes and goes), Angelus does not view Angel as him.
Angel is a stranger, a cage, a very literal curse done by gypsies to entrap him. Angel is weak, rescues kittens and listens to Barry Manilow. Angelus hates Angel and everything about him- there is no 'merged identity' there.

But we forget that Liam had a dark side also- he was a whoring, layabout, drunken, bully who would lie and charm his way into a girls underthings at the drop of a hat.
Liam's memories inform Angelus's demon self to a degree and Angelis's memories influence Angel's behaviour to a degree. There are echoes

I see Bangel as incredible - but I also see that Angel seduced a 16 year old girl to lose her innocence. Yes, in love, slayer, and all others agreed to - this is cause and effect. Angel seduces (over many weeks) her, and that is what the demon would want more than anything. To seduce an innocent like that is really something Angelus loved (reference Dru). Angelus pops out of the box like a demonic sugar junkie. Forces create friction - the demon has had to fight the soul, the demon now is stronger. Resoul...fight....the demon gets sent to hell, and I imagine it found uses for the soul during the period because demons do that to souls in hell. Angel returns and once more has to find a balance between soulboy and the demon

I see Bangel as a cliched Gothic teen romance, not the elaborate seduction you clearly do.
It's kinda odd that Angel seduces Buffy by always somehow getting her to make the first move, by never pushing, by lying to her about his past and then feeding it to her as breadcrumbs of Byronesque proportions.

It's funny that some seem (and I think @wa has posited this theory) to think that Angel is so canny with women that, apparently, this was all part of some pre-planned 'get in the girls pants' from day one.

I look at Buffy and Angel in S1 and see Buffy always making the first move, first kiss, etc (And why the hell not, it's Buffy's show after all).
Angel keeps on saying 'this'll end badly', 'we should stop', even 'maybe we shouldn't' right before the doomed consummation. Angel is weak, sure. But he isn't somebody who is actively seducing in any sense.
Passive seduction. i.e looking pretty/brooding then yes Angel is guilty of that. He should wear a bag on his head or something.

The problem for me is that we use the name Angel for both the soul as well as the two combined.

The only time Angelus calls himself Angel is in S2 of Buffy where there was clear intent to kill him off and therefore no have to deal with the duality of his nature. But from S3 onwards and on his own show the writers reestablish the duel identity.

This is from Eternity, the first time we 'hear' Angelus on his own show:

Wesley: “Angel, I want you to listen to me. What you’re experiencing is not genuine. You’ve been fed a drug. It’s simulating bliss. All that you’re feeling is just chemical suggestion. (Angel slowly strolls into the dark office) Angel?”
Angel still in vamp-face: “Name’s Angelus.”

That. for me, settles it. Angelus thinks of himself as 'the demon Angelus (and Spike also calls him this most of the time) and Angel as 'the other guy'.

There is duality there, but the line isn't as blurry as you're implying. Doing so gives both vampires a free pass, but in different ways.

Angel ate bad people when he had a soul not because it was the demon in him, it was because he was ultimately, at that time, weak. Same for letting a demon kills the 'innocent' people who had just murdered him in the Fifties. He wasn't a good person, he didn't even think of himself as a man capable of doing good- he didn't know what he was apart from a monster who felt remorse.
Saying that it was Angelus whispering in his ear the whole just....makes Angel a lot less compelling imo.

 

[bespangeled]

Sigh, here we go.




Only in regards to reality.

Funny, in that we are discussing Buffy. 🙂

That's a very eloquent guess but its sheer fanon theory that isn't what's shown on the show. Here is what is:

In Orpheus we see Angel (the soul) and Angelus (demon) as two separate entities that share the same host body. They are linked by shared memories, that's what's clear when Angelus and Faith have a magical mystery tour. When Angel is in control/present Angelus is trapped, royally pissed off but ultimately helpless. When Angel is absent Angelus the demon is able to run rampant.

Blaming Angelus's demon-ness on Angel makes Angel waay more boring, abdicating him of responsibility (and we all know how often people are quick to blame Angel for everything he does whilst giving a massive pass to other characters) by saying that's his demon self.

It's also worth noting that, although Angel might think of himself as 'Angelus'- as in he is the guy who did all those terrible things (although this comes and goes), Angelus does not view Angel as him.
Angel is a stranger, a cage, a very literal curse done by gypsies to entrap him. Angel is weak, rescues kittens and listens to Barry Manilow. Angelus hates Angel and everything about him- there is no 'merged identity' there.

But we forget that Liam had a dark side also- he was a whoring, layabout, drunken, bully who would lie and charm his way into a girls underthings at the drop of a hat.
Liam's memories inform Angelus's demon self to a degree and Angelis's memories influence Angel's behaviour to a degree. There are echoes

I completely agree with your first two paragraphs - that was what I was trying to say. I called the soul soulboy to distinguish between the soul and the entire being. But they are both aware at all times because Angelus shows not only memory but critical insight about persons and dynamics.
But I do blame Angel when he lets his demon take too much control. This is what Angel has to do - balance the demon and the soul. There's knowledge and power in Angelus that Angel can't do without. A normal man does not kick someone out a window - a demon doesn't hesitate. Angel can't rid himself of the demon - he makes that point several times. He can walk like a man but he is always the demon. He doesn't have the luxury of letting down his guard, even with a pill.

I see Bangel as a cliched Gothic teen romance, not the elaborate seduction you clearly do.
It's kinda odd that Angel seduces Buffy by always somehow getting her to make the first move, by never pushing, by lying to her about his past and then feeding it to her as breadcrumbs of Byronesque proportions.

It's funny that some seem (and I think @wa has posited this theory) to think that Angel is so canny with women that, apparently, this was all part of some pre-planned 'get in the girls pants' from day one.

I look at Buffy and Angel in S1 and see Buffy always making the first move, first kiss, etc (And why the hell not, it's Buffy's show after all).
Angel keeps on saying 'this'll end badly', 'we should stop', even 'maybe we shouldn't' right before the doomed consummation. Angel is weak, sure. But he isn't somebody who is actively seducing in any sense.
Passive seduction. i.e looking pretty/brooding then yes Angel is guilty of that. He should wear a bag on his head or something.

Well, cliched goth romance is cotton candy love. And playing the forbidden love angle is the best way to seduce. I see Angel as seducing Buffy starting in season 2. By that I mean the whole 'we can't but I can't stop myself'' is really an effective way of drawing in prey. I am definitely not saying that Angel didn't love Buffy and actually feel this way - what I am saying is that Angel had 100+ years seducing. It comes so naturally that he wasn't doing it coldly and deliberately but he was definitely doing it. I really think he needed to touch the light.

The only time Angelus calls himself Angel is in S2 of Buffy where there was clear intent to kill him off and therefore no have to deal with the duality of his nature. But from S3 onwards and on his own show the writers reestablish the duel identity.

This is from Eternity, the first time we 'hear' Angelus on his own show:

Wesley: “Angel, I want you to listen to me. What you’re experiencing is not genuine. You’ve been fed a drug. It’s simulating bliss. All that you’re feeling is just chemical suggestion. (Angel slowly strolls into the dark office) Angel?”
Angel still in vamp-face: “Name’s Angelus.”

That. for me, settles it. Angelus thinks of himself as 'the demon Angelus (and Spike also calls him this most of the time) and Angel as 'the other guy'.

There is duality there, but the line isn't as blurry as you're implying. Doing so gives both vampires a free pass, but in different ways.

Angel ate bad people when he had a soul not because it was the demon in him, it was because he was ultimately, at that time, weak. Same for letting a demon kills the 'innocent' people who had just murdered him in the Fifties. He wasn't a good person, he didn't even think of himself as a man capable of doing good- he didn't know what he was apart from a monster who felt remorse.
Saying that it was Angelus whispering in his ear the whole just....makes Angel a lot less compelling imo.

No fair saying it was just the writers - as I recall you have some pretty negative reactions to that.

It's in Angel where the duality really becomes a force. In Buffy, he refers to himself as Angel and is referred to as Angel by the others. Once he had moved to LA it seems that either his perception changed, or being with humans on such a regular basis he was willing to let them believe that Angelus was always out of the picture when he wasn't dominant.

I see Spike and Angel as having completely different lines. Angel was cursed, and in trying to deal with the curse he fractured. Spike's demon wanted the soul, at least until he had it, and therefore he didn't fracture. He accepts himself as both demon and souled from the start. There's a lot that goes into this, including the fact that Spike had a flashing arrow to follow set up by Angel. Also Spike isn't one for self reflection - more interested in action. Angel definitely reflects/broods a lot.

I agree that Angel did both the early human feeding and the hotel thing because he was weak - in large part he was completely lost. But without the demon he wouldn't have had the knowledge and skill to chose prey and bring it down.

I don't mean to say Angelus whispers in Angel's ear - more that both beings we saw in Orpheus are always inside Angel, and always have input into his choices and reactions.

 

[Kana]

Angel isn't the two dimensional character Angelus is.

I completely agree with this. I'd tire of hearing all about how Angel was dull and dreary but Angelus "So cool, for reals, yo!"

I'd contend that this opinion is mostly based upon those who've only seen Btvs, because the Angel on Ats is vastly superior as a character.

And I never really thought that Angel's dark side had much to do with Angelus, that's giving him a free pass 'oh, that was Angelus influencing him' or whatever. If Angel does something bad then its on him.

There are so many ways in which one could tackle this. I've often debated on the other forum, the question of Angel's personal identity. The problem is that we are definitely dealing with a dualist show and we know that Angel can retain a sense of his personal identity without retaining his vampiric nature (see IWRY and Carpe Noctem for support). If one subscribes to the notion that Angel (the soul) and Angelus (the demon) are separate then, yes, Angel is responsible for the crimes he commited whilst in control of his body.

Of course the other theory is that soul is little more than a conscience and that Angel and Angelus are the same but the soul or lack thereof brings different aspects of his behaviour in conjunction with his demon physiology.

Angel and Angelus two separate and distinct beings (see 'Orpheus' this is canon.)

Ooooh don't get me started on Season 4 of AtS.

1) Apparently Angel's mind wasn't there when the spell to wipe all references to Beast was cast, however both Jasmine and Angelus said Angelus is always deep inside Angel, "fully aware" of what's going on. INCONSISTENCY!

2) Angel starts interacting with Angelus and Faith in Orpheus. Now Orpheus is a mystical drug right, but the Muo Ping the houses Angel's soul is immune to magic and even after it is realised, it's in the Ether, which is where souls go when someone is turned into a vampire and Angelus actually states this as well. Ether way (see what I did there) if Angel is the soul, then how can he be interacting with Faith and Angelus?????? This makes me think that "Angel" may be a construct of the hell or a "saving throw" from the PTBs like Darla in Inside out.

Personally, I find Angel fascinating!!!!!!!!!

 

[thetopher]

1) Apparently Angel's mind wasn't there when the spell to wipe all references to Beast was cast, however both Jasmine and Angelus said Angelus is always deep inside Angel, "fully aware" of what's going on. INCONSISTENCY!

This is a wrinkle but can be explained by the fact that we don't really know HOW Jasmine did the massive mind-wipe/reality distortion thing. I can kinda squint and suppose that Angelus wasn't 'present' at the time the spell or whatever took place so he remembers his (brief) encounter with the Beast. The rest is just Angelus' deductive reasoning- i.e the Beast is too stupid to pull all this crap off.

Like how Spike was immune to Glory's 'secret identity magic thing' that distorted people's memories. That's how I explain it away anyhow.

2) Angel starts interacting with Angelus and Faith in Orpheus. Now Orpheus is a mystical drug right, but the Muo Ping the houses Angel's soul is immune to magic and even after it is realised, it's in the Ether, which is where souls go when someone is turned into a vampire and Angelus actually states this as well. Ether way (see what I did there) if Angel is the soul, then how can he be interacting with Faith and Angelus?????? This makes me think that "Angel" may be a construct of the hell or a "saving throw" from the PTBs like Darla in Inside out.

This is a little easier since Angel is only present in the magical mind walk right at the very end when Willow is casting her spell and 'forcing' Angel back into his body. The Mor Ping is broken, Angel is, as you say, in the ether and also this sort of thing has happened to him once before (Becoming) so maybe Angel is more aware of the whole experience.
Basically Angel and Angelus had a punch up- hence two separate identities. 🙂 

And playing the forbidden love angle is the best way to seduce. I see Angel as seducing Buffy starting in season 2. By that I mean the whole 'we can't but I can't stop myself'' is really an effective way of drawing in prey. I am definitely not saying that Angel didn't love Buffy and actually feel this way - what I am saying is that Angel had 100+ years seducing.

Right, so you think that Angel, who is shown to be fairly clueless when it comes to romance, deftly seduces Buffy by pulling a Parker and getting her to seduce him.

Huh, Buffy fell for the same trick twice. That's pretty dumb. 😉

And yet I highly doubt it because Angel is shown never to have been in love before (as he later tells Darla you can't love without a soul) so romance is gonna screw with his 'mad' seducing techniques, right? 🙄

Honestly I don't get where this theory of Angel the Lothario comes from. All his romances have the same exact quality- this non-faked awkwardness when it comes to women. It was there with Buffy, and with Cordelia, and with Nina.

No fair saying it was just the writers - as I recall you have some pretty negative reactions to that.

And yet I'm quoting the show to bolster my arguments. 🙂

And I'm not 'blaming the writers', but I am explaining the disparity between Angel's character/identity in S2 of Buffy and then later on.

They (the writers) didn't know that Angel was going to survive past Season 2 until 'IOHEFY' so why bother with the dual identity thing- Angel(us) is going to hell and Buffy's going to put him there. But when Angel comes back (and gets his own spin-off no less) they have to deal with it- which is what 'Amends' is all about.

'A demon isn't a man, I was a man once.' Is the start of Angel putting a barrier between Angel and Angelus. He 'owns' the actions of both but they are distinct identities

It's what's called a 'gentle retcon'.
They did the same thing by claiming that Spike had a 'thing' for Buffy from 'Becoming' onward- they show a flashback with Drusilla saying that the slayer was 'all around' Spike and yet there is no hint at all of that in 'Lover's Walk' or indeed any of S4. We're now meant to believe that Spike has been in love with Buffy since S2.

Like I said retcon.

I agree that Angel did both the early human feeding and the hotel thing because he was weak - in large part he was completely lost. But without the demon he wouldn't have had the knowledge and skill to chose prey and bring it down.

Exactly. I was the memories of all those things that allowed Angel to do/act the way he did. Nothing to do with Angelus. Angelus didn't get Angel to rescue a kitten, nor did he keep Angel from killing Spike (or Darla), nor did he tell Angel to lock those lawyers up (although he might have had a chuckle at that one)- it was all Angel. His decisions dictated by circumstance.

 

[Kana]

This is a wrinkle but can be explained by the fact that we don't really know HOW Jasmine did the massive mind-wipe/reality distortion thing. I can kinda squint and suppose that Angelus wasn't 'present' at the time the spell or whatever took place so he remembers his (brief) encounter with the Beast. The rest is just Angelus' deductive reasoning- i.e the Beast is too stupid to pull all this crap off.

However Angelus was never presented as "not being around" when Angel was in control. As I said, it's been explicitly stated in that very season that he's always conscious and very much mentally present.

Like how Spike was immune to Glory's 'secret identity magic thing' that distorted people's memories. That's how I explain it away anyhow.

Well we know it was specific manipulation on Jasmine part. We could easily argue that Angel(us) never met the Beast and the memory was implanted by Wo Pang along with the spell to remove Angel's soul or perhaps it was re-implanted.

This is a little easier since Angel is only present in the magical mind walk right at the very end when Willow is casting her spell and 'forcing' Angel back into his body.

Actually Angel starts interacting Angelus before the Muo Ping was broken which should be impossible seen as it's immune to magic and that include an mystical drug.

The Mor Ping is broken, Angel is, as you say, in the ether and also this sort of thing has happened to him once before (Becoming) so maybe Angel is more aware of the whole experience.

Yes, but in Becoming there is no contradiction because "Angel" isn't there in any shape or form before being he's re-ensoulled, however Angel in Orpheus is still interacting with Faith and Angel when he's on a different dimensional plain!!!

My theory is that it's still part of Angelus' hell construct. There was nothing saying that the rules had to stay the same.

Basically Angel and Angelus had a punch up- hence two separate identities.

Or maybe it's the representation of Angelus' hell. The remnants of"Angel" not only causing conflict with his mind but also helping another person. Faith happened to get the side benefit of that.

 

[thetopher]

However Angelus was never presented as "not being around" when Angel was in control. As I said, it's been explicitly stated in that very season that he's always conscious and very much mentally present.

Maybe in the sense of a deeply buried split personality. I see the demonic urges in Angel but rarely do we see any true 'Angelus' behavior. No torture, no sadism. Angelus 'the personality' is locked away for most of the time. Hence 'not present'.

Well we know it was specific manipulation on Jasmine part. We could easily argue that Angel(us) never met the Beast and the memory was implanted by Wo Pang along with the spell to remove Angel's soul or perhaps it was re-implanted.

Jasdelia did a global mind-wipe plus reality distortion (books had bits about the Beast edited out) so I could understand how something so broad wouldn't be that deep.

Actually Angel starts interacting Angelus before the Muo Ping was broken which should be impossible seen as it's immune to magic and that include an mystical drug.

Yes, but Willow's spell is already in progress was what I meant. The battle of wills was already ongoing so we don't know how limited Angel's movements were by the jar. He couldn't take possession of his own body again but obviously he could interact with it.

Basically there is much more evidence of two separate and distinct people rather that one person, (a demon with a soul).

Or maybe it's the representation of Angelus' hell. The remnants of"Angel" not only causing conflict with his mind but also helping another person. Faith happened to get the side benefit of that.

I might buy that if Angel and Faith had interacted in only some sort of shallow way but they don't. Angel reacts to her, talks to her and basically pulls her back from the brink of dying- that's Angel, not some remnant of Angelus' construct or whatever (which isn't really hinted at to be honest).

 

[Kana]

[QUOTE="thetopher, post: 1146601, member: 12614]"Maybe in the sense of a deeply buried split personality. I see the demonic urges in Angel but rarely do we see any true 'Angelus' behavior. No torture, no sadism. Angelus 'the personality' is locked away for most of the time. Hence 'not present'.[/QUOTE]

It depends on whether you're talking about "traits" or "consciousness". Fred refers to Angelus' mind not being present, but as I said, both Jasdelia and Angelus himself contradict this. For his "mind" not to be present we need more than his personality traits not being present. His consciousness needs to be locked away, which it's implied it's not.

Jasdelia did a global mind-wipe plus reality distortion (books had bits about the Beast edited out) so I could understand how something so broad wouldn't be that deep.

It's possible but that would be a very odd design flaw. It actually makes more sense if Jasmine engineered specifically that Angel would forget and then reimplated the memory. Even if Angelus were a seperate consciousness and his mind wasn't wiped, why wouldn't Angel have access to that memory? Pretty tame compared most of his memories. It's possible that Jasmine placed a block on those memories and the desoulment was a failsafe, but either way, you need employ some sort of fanwank.

Yes, but Willow's spell is already in progress was what I meant. The battle of wills was already ongoing so we don't know how limited Angel's movements were by the jar. He couldn't take possession of his own body again but obviously he could interact with it.

The first spell was Delothrian's arrow and that was only to break the jar but had no affect on the soul itself. It couldn't do because soul is protected by the Muo Ping.

Basically there is much more evidence of two separate and distinct people rather that one person, (a demon with a soul).

Well, I don't think it makes much of a difference, because we still need to fanwank it to make it make sense anyway.

I might buy that if Angel and Faith had interacted in only some sort of shallow way but they don't. Angel reacts to her, talks to her and basically pulls her back from the brink of dying- that's Angel, not some remnant of Angelus' construct or whatever (which isn't really hinted at to be honest).

It could be. Angel has a full understanding of Angelus and his evil, why can't Angelus have a subconscious understanding of Angel's good?