Angel, not Angelus
- Thread starter Scythus
- Start date
mm i dont know if they're different ppl. buffy and willow have this little conversation in season 2 after angel turns evil where buffy says something like "hes not angel anymore" and willow says: "yea...except that you're still all he can think about."
though, obviously a person with a soul would be completely different to one without a soul.
and the thing with the curse not actually being a very good punishment is explained by joss whedon in an audio commentary where he admits that they had to figure out why that curse was made the way it was. hes explained it all by jennys uncle saying "Vengeance is a living thing." and "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."
though, obviously a person with a soul would be completely different to one without a soul.
and the thing with the curse not actually being a very good punishment is explained by joss whedon in an audio commentary where he admits that they had to figure out why that curse was made the way it was. hes explained it all by jennys uncle saying "Vengeance is a living thing." and "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."
My take on this is that Angelus is being punished. Angel is Angelus' prison cell. Why Angel is in charge Angelus can't committ any more acts of evil. True it gets more complicated when you factor in that Angel suffers as well. But I look at it the same way as Ben and Glory. Ben is Glory's jail cell. They are two different people that inhabit the same form.
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xgirlanachronism245x
But why make Angel/Ben suffer for the actions of their evil counterparts? A little unfair if you ask me. But the Ben/Glory comparison is right down my lane of thinking. =]
Superstar
33.3bar% Pure Evil
That's an interesting thought.
In the Dark Horse limited series "Angel: Long Night's Journey" by Joss, this very thing is addressed.
Angelus was a test subject of re-ensoulment for another vampire in order to make Zheng a champion.
As for Angel/Angelus...
He does know inside that what the vampire becomes is based upon their life as a human and their personality. He states this to Willow in "Dopplegangland".
These inner motivations are unleashed when becoming a vampire.
Angel knows that Angelus is him unleashed. I think his problems come from accepting that fact.
Here's the rub that keeps him up at night (so to speak); Angel knows he will never be as good at being good as he was at being bad.
So yes, he does create a duality in self to cope. I think his brooding is more from keeping this duality in check than reflecting on harm that another "entity" did while possessing his body.
The reality; Liam felt he was belittled and given the paternal doom of amounting to nothing. So he attempted to excel in carousing, a feat mastered by the ne'er do well. When given real power as a vampire, he excelled at that. All to spite his father.
His punishment, a soul and loss of the lust for the kill. Punishment indeed for one such as him. Never again to excel in his chosen profession.
Angel admits several times that he misses the clarity of it all.
The dreams in "Somnambulist"; he admits freely that they're not nightmares and that he enjoyed them.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
I don't think that Angelus and Angel are seperate people or beings - I'm of the opinion that Angelus is an aspect of Angel. So the curse works beautifully - it restrains Angelus and it punishes Angel by causeing him to suffer horribly for the sins he has committed.
I'll use an analogy with real people to illustrate my point; I'm sure this has happened to all of us at one time or another - you know when you are talking to someone who really annoys you or you don't like but you listen politely anyway, nodding and smileing on the outside all the while on the inside you are thinking - 'iI wish this person would shut up' or how much you can't stand them. The urge to say what you really think is regulated by the dictates of civility - you don't want to be rude, you want to avoid trouble, you want to be polite and liked so you say nothing....BUT that doesn't mean you don't think those other things or that you are a seperate entity in the same body. Those thoughts are part of you.
It is the same for Angel after he gets the soul - Angelus, his thoughts, his desires, his urges are still there, still part of Angel but the soul dictates his behaviour - gives him the moral compass not to act on them anymore. And it's hard for him to adapt. That's why he avoids people for so long after he gets the soul - he tried to go back to being 'bad' but that doesn't sit well with the soul/Conscience so then he becomes a recluse because he doesn't trust himself around the humans or his hold on his Angelus-urges. They are still there with him all the time, even when he is firmly on the side of good and it all comes back to the method of acquisition. Its a curse - something he doesn't essentially want, something he's forced to live with, something he's had to adapt to, something that makes his life a pain, it's what informs his quest for redemption, his need to balance the scales - he's serving his time. It's a punishment! That's why the duality of Angelus/Angel is so obvious where Spike and SouledSpike are barely distinguishable from one another, because 'Angel', the Angel we see, the heroic, broody, emotionally distant, disconnected, cautious, careing, vunerable guy is his response to the curse, his response to still having mass-murdering, human blood drinking urges even with the soul.
I'll use an analogy with real people to illustrate my point; I'm sure this has happened to all of us at one time or another - you know when you are talking to someone who really annoys you or you don't like but you listen politely anyway, nodding and smileing on the outside all the while on the inside you are thinking - 'iI wish this person would shut up' or how much you can't stand them. The urge to say what you really think is regulated by the dictates of civility - you don't want to be rude, you want to avoid trouble, you want to be polite and liked so you say nothing....BUT that doesn't mean you don't think those other things or that you are a seperate entity in the same body. Those thoughts are part of you.
It is the same for Angel after he gets the soul - Angelus, his thoughts, his desires, his urges are still there, still part of Angel but the soul dictates his behaviour - gives him the moral compass not to act on them anymore. And it's hard for him to adapt. That's why he avoids people for so long after he gets the soul - he tried to go back to being 'bad' but that doesn't sit well with the soul/Conscience so then he becomes a recluse because he doesn't trust himself around the humans or his hold on his Angelus-urges. They are still there with him all the time, even when he is firmly on the side of good and it all comes back to the method of acquisition. Its a curse - something he doesn't essentially want, something he's forced to live with, something he's had to adapt to, something that makes his life a pain, it's what informs his quest for redemption, his need to balance the scales - he's serving his time. It's a punishment! That's why the duality of Angelus/Angel is so obvious where Spike and SouledSpike are barely distinguishable from one another, because 'Angel', the Angel we see, the heroic, broody, emotionally distant, disconnected, cautious, careing, vunerable guy is his response to the curse, his response to still having mass-murdering, human blood drinking urges even with the soul.
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xgirlanachronism245x
But Angel didn't commit the sins... Angelus did. So why punish ANGEL for things he had no control over?